NRL and International Footy

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

That's a 2-year old decision they're now stuck with - I don't think they'd cut that deal now

The best way to get people to come with you is wait for them to change direction, and encourage them. The mindset is shifting right now. Telling them about all the mistakes they've made before isn't encouragement. Let's encourage, and roll with it 

 

If you are comfortable with him claiming the IRL have been a mess - then maybe we need to answer the question of why that is? 

All governing bodies need to feed into the IRL to make it work. The RFL and ARL have to work hardest at making it work. 

The other governing bodies are so insignificant that in reality the IRL is a reflection of the RFL and ARL's efforts. 

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

If you are comfortable with him claiming the IRL have been a mess - then maybe we need to answer the question of why that is? 

All governing bodies need to feed into the IRL to make it work. The RFL and ARL have to work hardest at making it work. 

The other governing bodies are so insignificant that in reality the IRL is a reflection of the RFL and ARL's efforts. 

That's true. What I'm open to doing is recognising the reality of that past, but leaning into a better future. If the NRL are interested in growing the international game now, we should welcome it. Because they're competent and have money and influence, whereas British rugby league administrators are not and do not. 

[Dave T]

4 hours ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

That's true. What I'm open to doing is recognising the reality of that past, but leaning into a better future. If the NRL are interested in growing the international game now, we should welcome it. Because they're competent and have money and influence, whereas British rugby league administrators are not and do not. 

There are a couple of issues with this approach. 

1. It is simply poor governance. Adopting this approach would not be learning a thing from the past. The single biggest failing this sport has is poor governance, in pretty much every place it is played. Without fail. It is terrible governance to allow a national governing body to control the world game - nobody should ever think that is a good idea. 

2. The NRL have never demonstrated skills of delivering great international RL. Despite all of the advantages the game has in Oz the 4N have always been pretty much the same as what we deliver in the UK, and the biggest and best World Cups have been staged in the UK. This despite the apparent gulf in money and talent. 

The Aussies can support growth of the world game through the IRL and partnerships with other governing bodies. They don't need to own the sport to grow it. Any talk of owning it is purely based on commercial greed. 

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

23 minutes ago, Dave T said:

There are a couple of issues with this approach. 

1. It is simply poor governance. Adopting this approach would not be learning a thing from the past. The single biggest failing this sport has is poor governance, in pretty much every place it is played. Without fail. It is terrible governance to allow a national governing body to control the world game - nobody should ever think that is a good idea. 

2. The NRL have never demonstrated skills of delivering great international RL. Despite all of the advantages the game has in Oz the 4N have always been pretty much the same as what we deliver in the UK, and the biggest and best World Cups have been staged in the UK. This despite the apparent gulf in money and talent. 

The Aussies can support growth of the world game through the IRL and partnerships with other governing bodies. They don't need to own the sport to grow it. Any talk of owning it is purely based on commercial greed. 

I'm not being clear, my bad. I'm not suggesting the NRL 'literally' takes over whole the governance of the international game, but that we should welcome their new interest and desire, lean into it, and let them get much more involved. The current International board barely exists... so we're comparing an alternative future of an NRL-driven partnership to what can be achieved by one overpaid executive and a PA. That's what we have now. I'll take almost any change over that.

There's no point using prior NRL execution as a benchmark, it's irrelevant. They weren't interested. At most, to previous NRL leaderships it was a minor distraction; at worst a slightly-resented act of charity by Australians who felt too guilty to abandon us all together. I went over there for the whole 2008 World Cup, and was living there for the 2010 and 2014 Four Nations, so you don't need to tell me how engaged they were. They weren't. But within those disappointing experiences is my point: All 3 of those tournaments were run as an afterthought, by NRL staffers in their lunch breaks - and yet they were still better organised than any of the ones we organised (and I was involved in 2009's promo myself). Imagine if it mattered to them. 

We need to get over the resentment of their lack of interest before. Take the chip off our shoulders. Then get excited by their renewed interest (which is still self-interest), and milk it for all it's worth. We have about 15-20 years demographics where 2nd & 3rd generation Polynesians living in Australia can provide lots of competitive sides. This "bubble" of heritage talent won't last for ever, it's an anomaly, but we can use it to rocket fuel the growth of our international sport. 

 

 

Edited July 7, 2022 by Hull Kingston Bronco

[Dave T]

23 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

I'm not being clear, my bad. I'm not suggesting the NRL 'literally' takes over whole the governance of the international game, but that we should welcome their new interest and desire, lean into it, and let them get much more involved. The current International board barely exists... so we're comparing an alternative future of an NRL-driven partnership to what can be achieved by one overpaid executive and a PA. That's what we have now. I'll take almost any change over that.

There's no point using prior NRL execution as a benchmark, it's irrelevant. They weren't interested. At most, to previous NRL leaderships it was a minor distraction; at worst a slightly-resented act of charity by Australians who felt too guilty to abandon us all together. I went over there for the whole 2008 World Cup, and was living there for the 2010 and 2014 Four Nations, so you don't need to tell me how engaged they were. They weren't. But within those disappointing experiences is my point: All 3 of those tournaments were run as an afterthought, by NRL staffers in their lunch breaks - and yet they were still better organised than any of the ones we organised (and I was involved in 2009's promo myself). Imagine if it mattered to them. 

We need to get over the resentment of their lack of interest before. Take the chip off our shoulders. Then get excited by their renewed interest (which is still self-interest), and milk it for all it's worth. We have about 15-20 years demographics where 2nd & 3rd generation Polynesians living in Australia can provide lots of competitive sides. This "bubble" of heritage talent won't last for ever, it's an anomaly, but we can use it to rocket fuel the growth of our international sport. 

 

 

In this case we agree - I was addressing the proposal that the NRL run the world game. 

I agree about the resentment point, it makes little sense, the Aussies are the biggest RL nation in the world, we need to work with them as we have done for over a century. 

[dkw]

17 hours ago, Dave T said:

If you are comfortable with him claiming the IRL have been a mess - then maybe we need to answer the question of why that is? 

All governing bodies need to feed into the IRL to make it work. The RFL and ARL have to work hardest at making it work. 

The other governing bodies are so insignificant that in reality the IRL is a reflection of the RFL and ARL's efforts. 

I think the reason the IRL is a mess is they have very little "power" within the game, they simply cant make decisions without the backing (acceptance?) of the NRL, anything that includes NRL based players will immediately be kicked back if it has any negative effect towards those clubs.

Compare it to UEFA or FIFA, or even the Rugby union equivalent (whatever that is), the IRL is a eunuch.

[Damien]

35 minutes ago, dkw said:

I think the reason the IRL is a mess is they have very little "power" within the game, they simply cant make decisions without the backing (acceptance?) of the NRL, anything that includes NRL based players will immediately be kicked back if it has any negative effect towards those clubs.

Compare it to UEFA or FIFA, or even the Rugby union equivalent (whatever that is), the IRL is a eunuch.

Bingo. If the IRL had the support of the NRL things would be competely different. As is we have the NRL and it's cronies like Phil Gould seeking to undermine it at every turn. Of course the IRL comes across as impotent and useless, that is exactly what the NRL want. Then it is no threat. It's all about control and a desire for the NRL to run everything. They've told us this enough times.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Damien

[Dave T]

37 minutes ago, dkw said:

I think the reason the IRL is a mess is they have very little "power" within the game, they simply cant make decisions without the backing (acceptance?) of the NRL, anything that includes NRL based players will immediately be kicked back if it has any negative effect towards those clubs.

Compare it to UEFA or FIFA, or even the Rugby union equivalent (whatever that is), the IRL is a eunuch.

Correct. If the NRL genuinely wanted to support the world game, they would put their full support behind IRL. 

For the RFL's faults, they have been a key driver in wanting proper governance around the world game and that is the right thing to do. 

[gingerjon]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

Correct. If the NRL genuinely wanted to support the world game, they would put their full support behind IRL. 

For the RFL's faults, they have been a key driver in wanting proper governance around the world game and that is the right thing to do. 

It is notable that the one section of the game that doesn't have any club influence - cos it's tiny and off everyone's radar - normally manages to find a coherent structure every year.

That would be the ERL and its competitions for lower ranking European/Caribbean/North African (etc) nations.

[Liverpool Rover]

On 06/07/2022 at 14:56, MattSantos said:

Can you give examples of when the RFL have cared about the International game over the last 10 years?

There was the GB tour, England actually played a test last year, when did the Kangaroos last play a game? There has been a couple of test series vs NZ plus the game in Denver. Add on the Four Nations comps then outside of World Cups I would wager that England have played more games than the Kangaroos have.

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

7 hours ago, Damien said:

Bingo. If the IRL had the support of the NRL things would be competely different. As is we have the NRL and it's cronies like Phil Gould seeking to undermine it at every turn. Of course the IRL comes across as impotent and useless, that is exactly what the NRL want. Then it is no threat. It's all about control and a desire for the NRL to run everything. They've told us this enough times.

I hate to spring this on you, but like him or loathe him Gould is the opposite of an NRL crony. The NRL wasn't a merger of equals, News Ltd 'won' the Superleague war really: It has always been in the box seat of the NRL since. Gould is the Murdoch empire's mortal enemy. He was Packer and Arko's representative on earth during the split, handing out most of the cheques written to fight News off (costing Murdoch & co. hundreds of millions in counter-bids).  

[Damien]

3 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

I hate to spring this on you, but like him or loathe him Gould is the opposite of an NRL crony. The NRL wasn't a merger of equals, News Ltd 'won' the Superleague war really: It has always been in the box seat of the NRL since. Gould is the Murdoch empire's mortal enemy. He was Packer and Arko's representative on earth during the split, handing out most of the cheques written to fight News off (costing Murdoch & co. hundreds of millions in counter-bids).  

I know his history and that is ancient and to be honest irrelevant. This is a thread about the international game, in every comment he talks up the NRL and puts down everything else.

[Dunbar]

3 hours ago, Liverpool Rover said:

There was the GB tour, England actually played a test last year, when did the Kangaroos last play a game?

2nd November 2019.

Here is an interesting stat, or thoroughly depressing depending on your state of mind.

In between the 2nd of November 2019 when the Kangaroos last played a game and the 15th of October when they are due to start their World Cup campaign, the All Blacks will have played 30 internationals.

And the first 17 names on the All Blacks team sheet for their game on Saturday have 744 caps between them.

[DavidM]

5 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

the 15th of October when they are due to start their World Cup campaign,

Don’t worry I’m almost sure they’ll be there . 

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

18 minutes ago, Damien said:

I know his history and that is ancient and to be honest irrelevant. This is a thread about the international game, in every comment he talks up the NRL and puts down everything else.

Can't stand Gould to be honest. Or Aussie's general default superiority setting in any sports conversation, it's just what they're like. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day though. The NRL to Superleague is kids park footy to the pro leagues. We can't organise a meat raffle... if anyone is any doubt, watch what we're served up tomorrow, in a huge stadium in front of two men and a dog. If they want to actually get involved for the first time in decades, the sooner the better.  

[Dunbar]

On 08/07/2022 at 16:59, Dunbar said:

2nd November 2019.

Here is an interesting stat, or thoroughly depressing depending on your state of mind.

In between the 2nd of November 2019 when the Kangaroos last played a game and the 15th of October when they are due to start their World Cup campaign, the All Blacks will have played 30 internationals.

And the first 17 names on the All Blacks team sheet for their game on Saturday have 744 caps between them.

If you will forgive me for quoting myself.  I was reading this article about Meninga looking for clarity from the players on who they intend to represent at the World Cup when I saw this line..

"The Kangaroos have not played a Test since their 16-12 loss to Tonga at the end of the 2019 season due to COVID"

It's just such a poor excuse when other sports' national teams will have played 30 times in these 3 years or so.

It should read of course 'the Kangaroos have not played a Test since their 16-12 loss to Tonga at the end of the 2019 season due to not caring enough about the international game to make it work during COVID'.

https://www.nrl.com/news/2022/07/19/whos-playing-for-who-mal-seeks-clarity-before-roos-train-on-squad-named/

[Sports Prophet]

I want to get on board with being angry with the NRL for the tragic state the international game is in, but I can’t escape the reality of the matter.

The success of international RL is not the responsibility of the NRL. It is not the NRL’s remit. Furthermore, the international game in its present state, does not present a lot of opportunity for the NRL to deliver to it’s remit.

So, what great reward does the NRL gain from organising and participating in international representative fixtures whilst it battles a multi million dollar code war against a very popular and formidable opponent?

Many of us (myself included) would love to see a four/five nations series played in every WC cycle. However, I hazard a guess that the benefit of a minimal financial TV contract for fixtures being played at an obscene hour to capture the required Australian viewership, is vastly outweighed by the risk that the NRLs best players could be injured and in turn missing from participating in its cash cows, namely the club game and SOO?

That risk vs reward is the reality of the matter and until there can be a little more certainty around improving that balance, I can totally understand a business decision to focus very little on the international game, no matter how much I dislike it.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Sports Prophet

[Dave T]

16 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

I want to get on board with being angry with the NRL for the tragic state the international game is in, but I can’t escape the reality of the matter.

The success of international RL is not the responsibility of the NRL. It is not the NRL’s remit. Furthermore, the international game in its present state, does not present a lot of opportunity for the NRL to deliver to it’s remit.

So, what great reward does the NRL gain from organising and participating in international representative fixtures whilst it battles a multi million dollar code war against a very popular and formidable opponent?

Many of us (myself included) would love to see a four/five nations series played in every WC cycle. However, I hazard a guess that the benefit of a minimal financial TV contract for fixtures being played at an obscene hour to capture the required Australian viewership, is vastly outweighed by the risk that the NRLs best players could be injured and in turn missing from participating in its cash cows, namely the club game and SOO?

That risk vs reward is the reality of the matter and until there can be a little more certainty around improving that balance, I can totally understand a business decision to focus very little on the international game, no matter how much I dislike it.

That view is far too risk averse, which leads to a real lack of ambition. 

We are in the business of playing RL, if we are going to avoid that because we may get injuries, then we may as well walk away from it all and give up.

Even in its current state, the international game is able to drive millions of quid profit from modest sized tournaments. If everyone nailed the delivery of it, the prize would be far bigger.

[Sports Prophet]

8 minutes ago, Dave T said:

That view is far too risk averse, which leads to a real lack of ambition. 

We are in the business of playing RL, if we are going to avoid that because we may get injuries, then we may as well walk away from it all and give up.

Even in its current state, the international game is able to drive millions of quid profit from modest sized tournaments. If everyone nailed the delivery of it, the prize would be far bigger.

That profit remains to be seen. Do you think the NRL would be cancelling anything that was so financially rewarding to them?

You are right about us being in the business of playing footy. The NRL achieves that objective for around 36 weeks in the year already. The international game is not the NRL’s product. It presents a risk to their product. The ownership and reward balance is not in the NRL’s favour.

You are right also, that risk averse mindset does lead to a lack of ambition. Even moreso when the NRL has to relinquish control of how any such international event is delivered.

I dislike it as much as you do Dave, but that’s the reality as I see it.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Sports Prophet

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Sports Prophet said:

The ownership ... is not in the NRL’s favour.

 

So tbh, we can ignore every other word you wrote apart from this bit.

The rest is a weak attempt to justify this position. It isn't justifiable. This is how sport works - nations work together to grow the sport and deliver quality international competitions. 

But, my view is that the situation is nowhere near as bad as people make out, the Aussies will play tests, including against England, they will tour here, they will play in world cups. We will need to keep pushing for more than that.

[Sports Prophet]

6 minutes ago, Dave T said:

So tbh, we can ignore every other word you wrote apart from this bit.

The rest is a weak attempt to justify this position. It isn't justifiable. This is how sport works - nations work together to grow the sport and deliver quality international competitions. 

That’s how this works Dave, you give a point and you justify it.

I wouldn’t call it a weak justification. Some of the biggest sports leagues and sports stars in the world ignore  the international game because of an unfavourable risk v reward balance. That’s a fact and demonstrates other multi billion dollar leagues justifying their decisions in the same manner. We see it in tennis, basketball, ice hockey, baseball and cricket.

 

Edited July 19, 2022 by Sports Prophet

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Sports Prophet said:

That’s how this works Dave, you give a point and you justify it.

I wouldn’t call it a weak justification. Some of the biggest sports leagues and sports stars in the world ignore  the international game because of an unfavourable risk v reward balance. That’s a fact and demonstrates other multi billion dollar leagues justifying their decisions in the same manner.

 

My point about justifying the position wasn't about your personally, it was about the NRL justifying it's position. It isn't really justifiable.

Which sports (that have a long and rich history of international competition) ignore the international game because of risk?

[Oxford]

7 minutes ago, Dave T said:

they will tour here

The Aussies, Dave ? Have you confused them with someone else in the police line-up?

[Sports Prophet]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

My point about justifying the position wasn't about your personally, it was about the NRL justifying it's position. It isn't really justifiable.

Which sports (that have a long and rich history of international competition) ignore the international game because of risk?

The international game isn’t ignored. There will be a WC that takes place this year. Australia will play tests before the following World Cup. Just not as many as most on this forum would like.

Per the edit in my previous post tennis, basketball, ice hockey, baseball and cricket all have examples of compromised international events and/or calendars, due to domestic or alternate interests.

[Sports Prophet]

Just now, Sports Prophet said:

The international game isn’t ignored. There will be a WC that takes place this year. Australia will play tests before the following World Cup. Just not as many as most on this forum would like.

Per the edit in my previous post tennis, basketball, ice hockey, baseball and cricket all have examples of compromised international events and/or calendars, due to domestic or alternate interests.

And the one common factor in every example is the growing business/professional nature of those sports.