RFL ban transgender women from female competitions

[Chrispmartha]

I think Team sports are a different ‘beast’ to individual sports.

The problem with the ban in a team sport such as Rugby is that there are no such restrictions for any players that aren’t Trans.

If we are banning players because they are deemed to be stronger then there could be CIS players that should be banned. 

I don’t know the answer by the way I just feel that it seems to be an unnecessary step to be taking when there are so few Trans players, I mean is there actually any Trans Women RL players actually registered in this country?

If it was really an issue as an inclusive sport we should be looking at ways to include Trans People not excluding them.

[Chrispmartha]

14 minutes ago, dkw said:

I agree that it's good that it's been left open to review in future, there does need to be a lot more investigation into trans athletes, but I still stick by all the conclusions should always start with the impact, both physically and mentally on so called cis women. That should be the priority. 

Has anyone asked the women playing RL in this country?

[dkw]

No idea  but if they do I hope its not done publicly as any player that agrees with this decision will be hammered on social media unfortunately. 

[fighting irish]

29 minutes ago, dkw said:

"Results Twenty-four studies were identified and reviewed. Transwomen experienced significant decreases in all parameters measured, with different time courses noted. After 4 months of hormone therapy, transwomen have Hgb/HCT levels equivalent to those of cisgender women. After 12 months of hormone therapy, significant decreases in measures of strength, LBM and muscle area are observed. The effects of longer duration therapy (36 months) in eliciting further decrements in these measures are unclear due to paucity of data. Notwithstanding, values for strength, LBM and muscle area in transwomen remain above those of cisgender women, even after 36 months of hormone therapy."

 

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865

 

I've not had time to read (in full) the report you copied the link to, but as yet I can't see which group of cis-gender women they are comparing these trans women to.

Most of the results quoted reveal changes (reductions) in all of the attributes measured (in the individuals measured) due to hormone therapy.

This means that trans-women get weaker over time. The effect is greater after 4 years than it is after 4 months.

The statement that they remain greater than cis-women is ill-defined and I'm afraid that it may be using a comparison between an average man and an average woman.

Let's say that a trans-woman measured loses 4% of muscle mass after 4 years. Then you say that the average woman has 8% less muscle mass than the average man.

That doesn't mean that trans-women shouldn't compete against women.

This doesn't mean that all trans-women are stronger than all cis-women or that there are no women in the general population that are stronger than a particular trans women.

If this is true, then the report is misleading and doesn't answer the questions I posed earlier, nor help us to be sure we are right to exclude trans-women.

I will read the report in full and try to get to the detail on the issues I've raised above.

 

Edited July 30, 2022 by fighting irish

[JohnM]

21 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

Has anyone asked the women playing RL in this country?

I doubt it.  But let's have an open and free-speech debate. The RFL has made the right decision. WTF is cisgender anyway? 

[Chrispmartha]

1 minute ago, JohnM said:

I doubt it.  But let's have an open and free-speech debate. The RFL has made the right decision. WTF is cisgender anyway? 

We are having an open free speech debate aren’t we.

I suspect you know exactly what CIS gender means.

[unapologetic pedant]

18 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

You could argue that higher or lower testosterone levels is an insufficiently accurate measure of the trans athlete's ''advantages'' or ''disadvantages''. 

If we are going to use terms like ''advantages'' to exclude someone then we should define what those advantages are and measure them.

Women`s sport is not for people whose testosterone is below a certain level. It is for people whose sex was recorded at birth as female. 

Sex is binary and immutable. There are a miniscule number of intersex cases who have one of the forms of Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. This should not be conflated with gender dysphoria, which is a mental health condition.

I posted something in the women`s section yesterday about how best to preserve the integrity of female-only categories. Essentially, it`s an argument that the responsibility to maximize inclusivity should shift from women to men.

There are inordinately more openly-gay women than openly-gay men playing RL. This indicates a significant problem. In men`s teams, we should encourage acceptance of gender non-conformity alongside efforts to encourage acceptance of same-sex attraction.

[Chrispmartha]

5 minutes ago, unapologetic pedant said:

Women`s sport is not for people whose testosterone is below a certain level. It is for people whose sex was recorded at birth as female. 

Sex is binary and immutable. There are a miniscule number of intersex cases who have one of the forms of Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. This should not be conflated with gender dysphoria, which is a mental health condition.

I posted something in the women`s section yesterday about how best to preserve the integrity of female-only categories. Essentially, it`s an argument that the responsibility to maximize inclusivity should shift from women to men.

There are inordinately more openly-gay women than openly-gay men playing RL. This indicates a significant problem. In men`s teams, we should encourage acceptance of gender non-conformity alongside efforts to encourage acceptance of same-sex attraction.

Just a point of order, Gender Dysphoria is not classed as a mental health illness in the UK (and in most places)

[unapologetic pedant]

8 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

Just a point of order, Gender Dysphoria is not classed as a mental health illness in the UK (and in most places)

My understanding is that Gender Dysphoria is defined as psychological distress occasioned by gender non-conformity.

BTW, I wrote "condition" not "illness".

[gingerjon]

57 minutes ago, dkw said:

No idea  but if they do I hope its not done publicly as any player that agrees with this decision will be hammered on social media unfortunately. 

I've seen comments on social media from women rugby players both agreeing and disagreeing with the decision.

[Chrispmartha]

6 minutes ago, unapologetic pedant said:

My understanding is that Gender Dysphoria is defined as psychological distress occasioned by gender non-conformity.

BTW, I wrote "condition" not "illness".

Gender Dysphoria can lead to psychological distress but isn’t defined as that, or a mental condition.

[gingerjon]

32 minutes ago, unapologetic pedant said:

Women`s sport is not for people whose testosterone is below a certain level. It is for people whose sex was recorded at birth as female. 

Women like Barbra Banda.

https://www.okayafrica.com/barbra-banda-zambia-gender/?rebelltitem=1#rebelltitem1

[Dunbar]

1 hour ago, JohnM said:

I doubt it.  But let's have an open and free-speech debate. The RFL has made the right decision. WTF is cisgender anyway? 

I have to say John, I don't think I have seen anyone ever get so angry about decisions they agree with as you seem to.

[unapologetic pedant]

50 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Women like Barbra Banda.

https://www.okayafrica.com/barbra-banda-zambia-gender/?rebelltitem=1#rebelltitem1

Not sure if you`ve posted this because you agree or disagree with my view.

A lot of tendentious and confusing prose in this article, particularly the paragraph that mentions Hyperandrogenism and AIS.

If this footballer`s sex was recorded as female at birth, she ought to be eligible to play women`s football, regardless of testosterone levels.

And I reiterate that these matters of intersex conditions or sex hormone levels should not be conflated with gender non-conformity.

[unapologetic pedant]

1 hour ago, Chrispmartha said:

Gender Dysphoria can lead to psychological distress but isn’t defined as that, or a mental condition.

If Dysphoria is not a mental health condition, how would you describe it?

[fighting irish]

1 hour ago, unapologetic pedant said:

Women`s sport is not for people whose testosterone is below a certain level. It is for people whose sex was recorded at birth as female. 

Sex is binary and immutable. There are a miniscule number of intersex cases who have one of the forms of Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. This should not be conflated with gender dysphoria, which is a mental health condition.

I posted something in the women`s section yesterday about how best to preserve the integrity of female-only categories. Essentially, it`s an argument that the responsibility to maximize inclusivity should shift from women to men.

There are inordinately more openly-gay women than openly-gay men playing RL. This indicates a significant problem. In men`s teams, we should encourage acceptance of gender non-conformity alongside efforts to encourage acceptance of same-sex attraction.

More strident assertions, spoken with such an air of authority. 

What if the sex recorded at birth was mistaken?

Whether sex is binary and immutable or not, is the basis of the entire dispute and the anchor to which all the prejudices are chained. Just because you say it is, it ain't necessarily so. 

You are asserting that gender dysphoria is a purely mental condition, a confusion, a sadness, an illness?, steady on! How do you know?

What about cases of gender euphoria, where someone feels ecstatic (perfectly happy) when presenting as their innate gender or when they are naturally recognised as of a member of said gender, by others?

Are you really suggesting that someone who has gone through gender reassignment surgery and long term hormone therapy (with all the attendant (weakening) changes that that entails) should play alongside real men, with all their inborn ''advantages''?

It seems that while you are signalling moral virtue by championing the rights of women in sport, who may face no disadvantage, nor increased risk of playing against trans-women, you see no contradiction is suggesting trans-women's only option should be to run the gauntlet with real men after their own ''advantages'' have been stripped from them by hormone therapy.

The exclusion of trans-gender women by the RFU was based on the ''advantages'' men enjoy over women from puberty onwards and they claim, are retained even after hormone therapy. My argument takes issue with that standpoint. What are the 'advantages'? How have you measured them? Who do these 'advantages' disadvantage?

If they are not stronger, faster, more powerful, more intelligent, than all women then on what basis can you claim they have advantages?

 

 

 

[fighting irish]

16 minutes ago, unapologetic pedant said:

Not sure if you`ve posted this because you agree or disagree with my view.

A lot of tendentious and confusing prose in this article, particularly the paragraph that mentions Hyperandrogenism and AIS.

If this footballer`s sex was recorded as female at birth, she ought to be eligible to play women`s football, regardless of testosterone levels.

And I reiterate that these matters of intersex conditions or sex hormone levels should not be conflated with gender non-conformity.

What if her sex was misjudged at birth?

You know that there have been Olympic athlete's whose sex was recorded as female at birth yet prevented from competing due to high testosterone levels?

For goodness sake, can't you bring forward some objective standards to be applied here, instead of your emotional airy-fairy arguments.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, fighting irish said:

I'm encouraged that the statement said the decision would be reviewed, in the near future.

If we are going to exclude people based on their inherent ''advantages'' then we should define what those advantages are and measure them.

If the trans-woman's physical characteristics fall within the genetic female populations ''normal distribution curve'' for those attributes, there are no grounds for exclusion.  

In my experience male attributes, continue to decline in trans women on hormone therapy, over time, so there may be a case for saying you can play after x number of years (on hormone therapy), or when your ''advantages'' fall within the normal female range.

One other point, I'd like to make is that the case of Lia Thomas is not a good example to quote in this discussion.

With regard to the fairness issues, any ''advantages'' she possesses are far more likely to benefit her in the individual sport she has chosen to compete in, than any trans-woman choosing to play in a team sport like Rugby League, where the teams combined effort might easily overcome any individual advantage she may retain.

Regarding the risk to other competitors, then I refer you to my earlier arguments.

Lia Thomas shows what the advantages and they were an average male athlete. The sporting bodies have determined that the physical advantages generally can not be overcome.

[unapologetic pedant]

7 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

You are asserting that gender dysphoria is a purely mental condition, a confusion, a sadness, an illness?, steady on! How do you know?

I`m saying there is no evidence to establish that it isn`t. Hence it is logical to assume that it is.

The contention that an essence of opposite gender can exist within the body is only credible if it can be tangibly identified - what is it? gender brain? gender mind? gender soul?

42 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

What about cases of gender euphoria, where someone feels ecstatic (perfectly happy) when presenting as their innate gender or when they are naturally recognised as of a member of said gender, by others?

Mental health patients will often be pleased when their delusions are affirmed. But you wouldn`t deem it kind to agree with an emaciated anorexic that she was fat and needed to diet, however much she pleaded with you to do so. Nor would you tell a schizophrenic that the voice they hear telling them to kill themselves should be heeded.

If someone had gone to a priest in medieval times claiming to hear voices, they would have been diagnosed with possession and a course of chastisement would have been prescribed to beat the demons out. By treating GD sufferers with genital reassignment, we`ve effectively turned the clock back on psychiatry by hundreds of years.

 

52 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

Are you really suggesting that someone who has gone through gender reassignment surgery and long term hormone therapy (with all the attendant (weakening) changes that that entails) should play alongside real men, with all their inborn ''advantages''?

I think it`s wrong for someone to risk their long-term physical health by treating GD with surgery or hormone therapy. Far better to make gender non-conforming men an integral part of men`s RL teams, just as gender non-conforming women are abundantly an integral part of women`s RL teams.

[unapologetic pedant]

1 hour ago, fighting irish said:

What if her sex was misjudged at birth?

The posted article does not say that. Nor does it say she is intersex. It says she is a woman with high testosterone levels - Hyperandrogenism.

[RL Tragic]

18 hours ago, NW10LDN said:

The numbers are irrelevant because even one trans athlete can have a big effect. Just look at that swimmer over in America. The numbers are probably going to grow. The Tavistock clinic said there was a surge in children presenting with gender dysphoria.

 

8 hours ago, The One said:

Definitely the right decision but it’s a tricky one without any perfect resolution.

I don’t think it’s really a tricky one . Anyone I know ( Hardworking folk , Pay Taxes , get there opinions ignored the majority of people in the UK  )Could have given you this decision before all the madness started . Let’s hope this is the is the first crack in the dam the release the much needed reservoir of common sense in to our game and society as a whole . 

[ckn]

3 minutes ago, RL Tragic said:

 

I don’t think it’s really a tricky one . Anyone I know ( Hardworking folk , Pay Taxes , get there opinions ignored the majority of people in the UK  )Could have given you this decision before all the madness started . Let’s hope this is the is the first crack in the dam the release the much needed reservoir of common sense in to our game and society as a whole . 

Those same "hardworking taxpaying folks" who have got every single thing their own way for the last decade?

Getting too close to politics this thread and I want to be able to take the evening off from t'interweb, but I don't think this thread will allow me to do that, so locking it. If @John Drake is in a particularly masochistic mood, he may unlock it.