League One - What is the Future?

[EggFace]

On 02/08/2022 at 12:05, steve oates said:

The TV funding of these clubs is a main attraction for the owners and it may be debatable whether some of the owners will actually want to carry on without it. The whole issue here is the lower TV funding  in which the top clubs, maybe 20 of them, or maybe 24 of them will argue they need all the money. Also, since the unification there is no "Superleague" and the rest "Rugby Football League" so it may be that Mr. Rimmer will be this time trapped into working with SL and top Championship clubs to obtain their majority collective wishes. 

Wether 24 or 20 clubs make up the first two divisions they of course now can collectively win any vote. Many championship clubs have enjoyed the SKY money this latest contract  and I guess their chairmen will want to remain recipients of as big a cut as they can get from the next deal. Many SL and top Championship clubs may argue they are tasked with providing the TV content and every penny counts, and historically many championship clubs have survived without said money. Will the French be in or out? is something already being pondered by McManus? What about famous clubs like Workington, Swinton and Oldham who once saw great days? Is this their end? Historic times.

The only unification there should be is the unification of Rugby League and Rugby Union and then you might see 2 2 full time leagues and maybe 1 or 2 semi pro leagues, imagine new fixtures instead of the same old ones like Leeds v Leicester or in the lower league York v Cornwall...well that's what I want to see now.

PS Please don't shot me down and might start a new thread in Cross Codes.

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, EggFace said:

The only unification there should be is the unification of Rugby League and Rugby Union and then you might see 2 2 full time leagues and maybe 1 or 2 semi pro leagues, imagine new fixtures instead of the same old ones like Leeds v Leicester or in the lower league York v Cornwall...well that's what I want to see now.

PS Please don't shot me down and might start a new thread in Cross Codes.

Maybe when union sees the light. We'll see if they survive the oncoming court cases. SRL are screwed after the way they handled Siobhan Cattigan.

[steve oates]

50 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Not at all. Martyn spent more than a few pages on here defending it

Well fair enough on the face of it, but he runs a very good RL weekly and other publications that cover the "whole game" such that I would still think in his heart of hearts he knows the SKY deal is the only way forward for the game........

But he has every right to perhaps take a different view, but for me it would be a very radical one indeed...... 

[steve oates]

57 minutes ago, The Lad said:

I think that in the end there will be two leagues. Leigh Centurions, Featherstone Rovers, Bradford Bulls, London Broncos and Newcastle Thunder will go into Super league along with all the clubs that are there now. All other clubs will be in a bigger second league.

 

How so? Superleague clubs already face reducing SKY funding now you forecast that lower funding will be shared amongst 17 clubs creating a secondary reduction 

[Jughead]

1 hour ago, The Lad said:

The trouble with League 1 is that it has no identity I don't think anyone knows what it is. One of the reasons for this is because there are two leagues in one, the heartland clubs and the expansion ones. The expansion experiment has for the most part failed  Hemel, Gloucestershire and Oxford have all left the league, Coventry and West Wales have gone through name changes. No expansion club has had consistent years in the top half of the league only managing to win one or two games against the Heartland clubs between them. It's easy to dismiss league 1 because its the bottom of the pile, it seems like the powers that be always view it as an after thought rather than something that should be pushed and have a market for.

I think that in the end there will be two leagues. Leigh Centurions, Featherstone Rovers, Bradford Bulls, London Broncos and Newcastle Thunder will go into Super league along with all the clubs that are there now. All other clubs will be in a bigger second league.

 

There’s two leagues in Super League and the Championship, sometimes more than two. What are those leagues? 

[The Lad]

8 minutes ago, Jughead said:

There’s two leagues in Super League and the Championship, sometimes more than two. What are those leagues? 

So 7 leagues with 6-9 clubs in each is the answer?

[The Lad]

28 minutes ago, steve oates said:

How so? Superleague clubs already face reducing SKY funding now you forecast that lower funding will be shared amongst 17 clubs creating a secondary reduction 

Im only trying to keep clubs semi-professional by making a big league out of the championship and league 1 clubs, maybe more becoming amateur is the future. 

Edited August 3, 2022 by The Lad

[steve oates]

45 minutes ago, EggFace said:

The only unification there should be is the unification of Rugby League and Rugby Union and then you might see 2  full time leagues. imagine new fixtures instead of the same old ones like Leeds v Leicester........

PS Please don't shot me down and might start a new thread in Cross Codes.

Of course I won't. Looking back some years there were suggestions about this, and I remember seeing Wigan.v.Bath on the TV in a cross code challenge.  Wigan smashed Bath at League in the first half, before Bath smashed Wigan in the second half.  It was a hell of an opportunity but in the end it didn't happen.

I think the problem was that essentially when the north broke away from the RFU, they improved the game through many rule changes and the like, whilst union stuck to arcaic Union rules. I don't think Union old school ties would allow League to lead them into the future. It would have been like we eventually had won....

Also at that time some clubs looked to develop both codes along with neighbours from the other code, Leeds Rhinos & Leeds RUFC, Wigan and Orrell?? We still see that now with Newcastle Thunder and Newcastle Falcons?......Cheers

[steve oates]

1 minute ago, The Lad said:

Im only trying to keep clubs semi-professional maybe more becoming amateur is the future. 

Apologies. I'd suggest that if we went semi professional all the top talent who want a career in the game and be full time would have to look to union.  There would be no Superleague and Leeds RUFC would end up back at Headingley accommodating the Rugby talent of Leeds in the Gallagher premiership

[Derwent Parker]

16 minutes ago, The Lad said:

So 7 leagues with 6-9 clubs in each is the answer?

we are nearly back to Martyns idea?

[Guest]

43 minutes ago, Derwent Parker said:

we are nearly back to Martyns idea?

Neither proposal is a good idea.

[EggFace]

2 hours ago, steve oates said:

Of course I won't. Looking back some years there were suggestions about this, and I remember seeing Wigan.v.Bath on the TV in a cross code challenge.  Wigan smashed Bath at League in the first half, before Bath smashed Wigan in the second half.  It was a hell of an opportunity but in the end it didn't happen.

I think the problem was that essentially when the north broke away from the RFU, they improved the game through many rule changes and the like, whilst union stuck to arcaic Union rules. I don't think Union old school ties would allow League to lead them into the future. It would have been like we eventually had won....

Also at that time some clubs looked to develop both codes along with neighbours from the other code, Leeds Rhinos & Leeds RUFC, Wigan and Orrell?? We still see that now with Newcastle Thunder and Newcastle Falcons?......Cheers

Excellent post and I only hope some old school ties will evenuqtlly disappear as I read a lot of Union players, coaches etc in Australia and New Zealand wanting the Union game to speed up and instead of farting around coming up with new ways or new competitions to unsuccessfully speed/jazz UP the game up but instead we should be building a future together as it's not the 1980's.

The best set up for club Rugby is the French one with-

Top 14

Pro2

Federale 1 which 48 teams divide into 4 pools of 12 teams each.

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by EggFace

[Jughead]

6 hours ago, The Lad said:

So 7 leagues with 6-9 clubs in each is the answer?

Absolutely not. The solution to mini leagues within the existing leagues isn’t to create numerous, much smaller leagues. 

[Programme Guy]

SuperLeague: 10 teams

SL2: 10 teams (2 relegated (currently Toulouse, Wakefield), plus London, Leigh, Bradford, Widnes, Newcastle, York, Sheffield, and 1 other from Halifax/Batley/Applicant club,/Cumbria wherever.

National 1: the other semi-amateur teams that currently make up League1, bottom of Championship.  The lowest clubs drop into the "amateur" pyramid. (Why does it need to be amateur - let clubs pay and move up if they choose to). 

 

To fund SuperLeague 2 - put the funding for the 2 relegated clubs (3.6M divided by 10 =360k each, plus additional broadcast revenue plus existing funding (divided by 10 instead of 14). Objective to get SL2 to fully professional asap. Even if it is low money, a (mostly) pro Tier2 would be moving the game towards stability. At the moment, there are only 1 or 2 teams who look like they are anywhere near professional. TV already exists, but product would be far better with the extra funding 

If fixtures were lacking, a 'Super League Cup' could be played with big clubs skipping early games etc. Could be knock out, giving clubs a couple of games extra on average (only if required).

Gaps in fixture list can be used to host European Championship.

Week 1: France v England (Free weekend for all SL clubs)

Week 2: England v Wales (no club games except French derby)

Week 3: Wales v France (or France v Wales if we want to be fully commercial). All Super League games go ahead that weekend except Catalans v Toulouse.

 

 

[steve oates]

12 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

I didnt say ten; You did .

Yes I understand teams will fold   WWR probably and Skolars to a southern conference Hunslet with their sub 400 crowds could be gone too. Tough choices need to be made. 

Currently would say Fev York Newcastle and even Keighley with their New stand to put pressure on the weaker teams in SL.

Cornwall are getting a 1000 plus at the bottom of League 1. Thats an RL market.

Wont repeat my spiel about Crusaders no RU franchise in North Wales; its still open turf.

The growth and survival of most clubs in the third tier runs back to the TV deals. I would not think many of their chairmen would persevere without free SKY money, Newcastle being the exception, but they have already progressed.

WWR would go, Skolars lost their Chairman McNeil didn't they?, so once the SKY money ends they probably will go.  Can't see Hurricanes carrying on and as for Cornwall's attendances, Mr. Perez has a long track record of heavily inflating the numbers from his TWP days. In short who is there to make up the loss of SKY money???

Just how long as you suggest can clubs like Hunslet and Oldham live on sentiment and their histories, but no TV money? In the Championship Workington are in dire straits even with TV money? That's 7 clubs in trouble and that is only ones I have heard about. Which other clubs actually depend on the TV money for actual survival but are staying tight lipped?.

I am sure all the games Directors are far more in the know than us. When two leagues of 12 were publicly suggested the obvious question was what about the other 13 clubs?? Well it's probable that along with the seven we know of who will likely fold there are more yet to declare. The thing is if the new Superleague has declared 2x12 there are still five more clubs that won't have a place, five clubs who maybe want to carry on?. 

I can see North Wales being an issue. You talk about them as if they are making North Wales into a Rugby League stronghold. I don't think the Welsh RU bother because there is no demand for Rugby there, Everton FC maybe. The reality is they landed at Wrexham after failure in south wales and they survive because of the close access to English M62 players, not because there is a great opportunity to develop RL there............ 

[Jughead]

Do we actually need to do anything dramatic to the league structure? Is it not more financially motivated than product related? 

Since we dropped the Super 8’s, we had the 2019 relegation battle where London Broncos incredibly won ten games and still went down and this year appears to be going down to the wire with Toulouse Olympique and Wakefield Trinity. We’ve had three different winners of the league leaders shield and four different Grand Finalists. 

The Championship has had a few standout sides in Toronto Wolfpack, Toulouse and currently Leigh Centurions but has seen nine different sides in the play-offs, including Whitehaven who were newly promoted and has seen one side miss out on the play-offs by a point. The bottom has seen a bit of a disparity and the fight for survival hasn’t been close but that happens.

Three points separated the top three in League One in 2019 and five of the six in 2021 were separated by two points (though points percentage was in play). Big names, relatively speaking, in Keighley and Rochdale have missed out on the play-offs and Midlands especially and London Skolars have beaten a handful of the heartland sides whilst also winning twenty games overall in ‘19 and ‘21. West Wales have won a game and have improved from the dark days of 100+ defeats and we’ve seen sides promoted from that level and more than hold their own in the league above (Whitehaven and Barrow). 

Is it really that bad what we have already? We probably play too many games at Super League level, the bottom of the Championship is probably a little too cut-off for a real competitive bottom end and League One probably play too few games. Isn’t there a way we can make cosmetic changes rather than wholesale, drastic changes, because the grass is pretty green already, it probably just needs a bit of a shape-up rather than landscape gardeners in redesigning the whole thing.  

[idrewthehaggis]

First Programme Guy, you get a like for creativity and putting flesh to the bones.

Jughead. Drama is for Ancient Greeks not RL. However as a Game we contribute far too much going to readily from comedy, farce to and tragedy rapidly.

I note as well, The Lad who bemoans League One's lack of identity. You are right.

This discussion has quickly morphed into another re-structuring thread!!!

For me, League One is the awkward middle child. However I think the overall insecurity of RL lends itself to this uncertainty of whom League One is.

Fortunately for them, other sports are not so ambivalent.

GAA has its Intermediate level between Senior and the clubs scene

Soccer has MLS at the top, its second tier being the US Championship.

And it goes on. 

I am sure we can contrive three tiers which a fresh League One forms the core of the middle one. 

 

Edited August 4, 2022 by idrewthehaggis

[steve oates]

1 hour ago, Jughead said:

Do we actually need to do anything dramatic to the league structure? Is it not more financially motivated than product related? 

Since we dropped the Super 8’s, we had the 2019 relegation battle where London Broncos incredibly won ten games and still went down and this year appears to be going down to the wire with Toulouse Olympique and Wakefield Trinity.

Is it really that bad what we have already? We probably play too many games at Super League level, the bottom of the Championship is probably a little too cut-off for a real competitive bottom end and League One probably play too few games. Isn’t there a way we can make cosmetic changes rather than wholesale, drastic changes, because the grass is pretty green already, it probably just needs a bit of a shape-up rather than landscape gardeners in redesigning the whole thing.  

The bottom line is that most of the TV eyes are on the top clubs. I would like you watch spellbound  London's endeavours to avoid relegation with some excitement, I would avidly watch TO and Wakefield over Saints and Wigan for a third time.

But the indications are nobody is counting, Catalans could meet Saints for a fifth time with not a lot to play for and the audience would still top a must win Wakey game or it's relegation for Wakefield. Thus it has always been. We do not get the SKY viewers numbers watching games, but some years ago we got a series of massive crowd numbers published when Bradford and Leeds were the stand outs and played each other again and again and again and yawn etc. 

[OriginalMrC]

These threads are always so tiring. How many people commenting actually support a league 1 club? There doesn't need to be radical solutions at all. The league could do with being 12 teams. It could also do with more financial support. That's all it needs thank you. 

[steve oates]

23 hours ago, JM2010 said:

Well if there's no chance of any of that happening then what's the point in adding any pro clubs from outside the heartlands to the structure?

Very very good question indeed. 

We have added many clubs from "outside the heartlands" over the years, recent years has seen North and South Wales, Coventry, Toronto and Newcastle, going back we have seen Mansfield, Nottingham, Doncaster, Blackpool and Sheffield.

The game gave them all (and many more than I name) a go at seeing what they could do, but we still await some sort of success from any of them (apart from Sheffield's cup win). In Doncaster's case something like 72 years. In Toronto's case only a few years but $30 Million dollars down the pan.

The problem is Rugby League has had enough historic presence in South Lancashire and East and West Yorkshire over the years since it broke from the RFU in 1896 to have built a game and infrastructure that is respected and works in those heartlands. Outside the Heartlands Rugby Union overwhelmingly dominates "rugby" as that game built a lot of infrastructure and captured all the schools (and many in the heartlands) to leave us little chance.

Soccer is of course king, so every time we travel outside our heartlands we find Spectators are watching Union and Soccer and their kids are growing up playing these games. 

I think that the game is now prepared to see itself for what it is, it's a minor sport, but it has build a decent following, it punches above it's weight, and it is admired well beyond the M62.  The new SKY deal needs to go to those traditional clubs.........  League one the "development League" is just another failure to expand down the years so no more SKY money will be wasted on that.

 

 

[steve oates]

2 hours ago, OriginalMrC said:

These threads are always so tiring. How many people commenting actually support a league 1 club? There doesn't need to be radical solutions at all. The league could do with being 12 teams. It could also do with more financial support. That's all it needs thank you. 

What has been tiring over the decades is the constant cheering on of "expansion" which involves dreamers coming into the game and throwing massive wads of cash away on so called expansion teams under our noses. As for "more financial support" for these dreamers, that's just throwing more good money after bad.

But you knew this anyway

[Mumby Magic]

On 03/08/2022 at 16:20, The Lad said:

The trouble with League 1 is that it has no identity I don't think anyone knows what it is. One of the reasons for this is because there are two leagues in one, the heartland clubs and the expansion ones. The expansion experiment has for the most part failed  Hemel, Gloucestershire and Oxford have all left the league, Coventry and West Wales have gone through name changes. No expansion club has had consistent years in the top half of the league only managing to win one or two games against the Heartland clubs between them. It's easy to dismiss league 1 because its the bottom of the pile, it seems like the powers that be always view it as an after thought rather than something that should be pushed and have a market for.

I think that in the end there will be two leagues. Leigh Centurions, Featherstone Rovers, Bradford Bulls, London Broncos and Newcastle Thunder will go into Super league along with all the clubs that are there now. All other clubs will be in a bigger second league.

 

You mention Newcastle within that group. A club that only (technicalities included ) have three years more in the league structure than Skolars and only ten than the first installment of WWR. Again hanging them out to dry will be a travesty. Plus why allow Cornwall to enter then pull the plug after a year or so.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Mumby Magic

[Mumby Magic]

18 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

I didnt say ten; You did .

Yes I understand teams will fold   WWR probably and Skolars to a southern conference but what is the point in putting limited funds into places that arent generating a roi? Hunslet with their sub 400 crowds could be gone too. Tough choices need to be made. 

Challenger teams I would say our teams who have the infrastructure and ambition to break into SL and need to be given a chance to see if they can grow. Currently would say Fev York Newcastle and even Keighley with their New stand to put pressure on the weaker teams in SL.

Cornwall are getting a 1000 plus at the bottom of League 1.

Hunslet is a good point. We are quick to dismiss Skolars, a club that has been in the system 20 years. A club of which I know, due to working at a semi-pro club as a volunteer, were classed as a better run club than some SL clubs. They have provided players to SL clubs inadvertently.

Yet we never consider (I believe we shouldn't cull ANY club btw) cutting ties with Hunslet for example. 

[Griff]

On 01/08/2022 at 19:24, Derwent Parker said:

Whatever happens the RFL have to make the fixture list bigger 20  matches is not enough.

If loop fixtures are good enough for Super Greed then they should be good enough for L1.

 

Are the clubs complaining ?  Would they want to play in February ?  Do game days make a profit ?  Who funds the not inconsiderable travel costs ?

This is all amongst the information you'd need to form an opinion on whether 20 games is enough.

[Billy King's Boots]

2 hours ago, OriginalMrC said:

These threads are always so tiring. How many people commenting actually support a league 1 club? There doesn't need to be radical solutions at all. The league could do with being 12 teams. It could also do with more financial support. That's all it needs thank you. 

I do. When I started this reply, I wasn't sure where it was going to go - but this is how it turned out. I've supported my club for 50 years and we're currently in League 1.

It's hard to have faith/believe in the competition when the RFL patently don't. It's a hard comp to enjoy: no real rhythm, too many breaks/weekends off. Apart from WWR - who were frankly awful - the other 'development' clubs have been competitive in spells. Skolars are struggling a bit, but can clearly play; Cornwall are having a good enough first year (I went down there and, yes, there was 1,000 on the ground); Midlands Hurricanes look the club most likely to break into the top half (they look the part and they beat/nilled Hunslet last week). The top half of the league (bar Keighley, who are spending cash like a drunken sailor), is tight, competitive and of a decent standard. But there's not enough of it. 10 home games isn't enough to to keep revenue ticking over or build any real critical mass.

The clubs in the lower reaches of the Championship are much closer to League 1 standard than they are to the top half of the Championship, so that would make a natural 'transition point' for recutting the leagues if required (Workington looking in all sorts of trouble ATM and look like they could use a couple of consolidatory seasons at a lower level to stabilise and rebuild.

The risk in League 1 is that the RFL will just pull the plug/the ladder up and leave the teams in there to wither. Running a RL side on £20k and whatever sponsor/benefactor funding you can beg, steal or borrow, is a thanklessly difficult task - but, in doing so, the clubs in there continue to give Rugby League a presence in some key areas and at a good level on the talent pathway.  The RFL should be thankful that they continue to fly the flag for their/our sport under incredibly challenging conditions and at minimal cost to them. And I believe that they should show their gratitude by supporting their efforts more enthusiastically.