League One - What is the Future?

[DEANO]

Not a fan of hunslet but do sympathise with them. Crowds have been dwindling since they were denied access to the promised land

[Anita Bath]

I wish folks would stop picking on Hunslet….they are as important to keep in the league structure as any other team.

There are plenty of teams in the championship who have gone through their struggles but come out stronger. 

[Mumby Magic]

23 minutes ago, Anita Bath said:

I wish folks would stop picking on Hunslet….they are as important to keep in the league structure as any other team.

There are plenty of teams in the championship who have gone through their struggles but come out stronger. 

Nobody is picking on them. Point inadvertently why a supposed non heartland club should be considered for culling and not a heartland. It's the random mindset of M62ers. 

[OriginalMrC]

4 hours ago, steve oates said:

What has been tiring over the decades is the constant cheering on of "expansion" which involves dreamers coming into the game and throwing massive wads of cash away on so called expansion teams under our noses. As for "more financial support" for these dreamers, that's just throwing more good money after bad.

But you knew this anyway

And the point you make here is exactly why threads like this are so tiring. 

[Hemi4561]

11 minutes ago, OriginalMrC said:

And the point you make here is exactly why threads like this are so tiring. 

And why do you believe Hurricanes are at financial risk? 

If a club has survived a distribution cut from 80k to 18k why should they fold now? 

It's far easier to plug a 20k gap than a 100k gap. 18k from the RFL is to a great extent irrelevant as it is not enough one person the minimum wage for 40 hours a week for a year

As has been said let's see how the Super Greed clubs do without their 1.8 million. I suspect they will survive as someone at each club will plug the gap, just as someone at league one, or at championship level would n

[OriginalMrC]

18 minutes ago, Hemi4561 said:

And why do you believe Hurricanes are at financial risk? 

If a club has survived a distribution cut from 80k to 18k why should they fold now? 

It's far easier to plug a 20k gap than a 100k gap. 18k from the RFL is to a great extent irrelevant as it is not enough one person the minimum wage for 40 hours a week for a year

As has been said let's see how the Super Greed clubs do without their 1.8 million. I suspect they will survive as someone at each club will plug the gap, just as someone at league one, or at championship level would n

I never said they were. It's quite the opposite, the club has good financial backing and with a move to Birmingham next year has a great chance to grow as a club. 

I was responding to the jibe about throwing good money after bad at 'expansion clubs' 

[Phil W]

I think the idea of opening up promotion to league one and relegation to the Conference is a good one. My only concern would be financially could Conference clubs survive higher up the league. 

[Damien]

50 minutes ago, Phil W said:

I think the idea of opening up promotion to league one and relegation to the Conference is a good one. My only concern would be financially could Conference clubs survive higher up the league. 

I think it's terrible. Almost no amateur clubs want to be professional and the vast majority are in towns with professional clubs. Their entire reason for existing is completely different to a professional club.

[Programme Guy]

55 minutes ago, Phil W said:

I think the idea of opening up promotion to league one and relegation to the Conference is a good one. My only concern would be financially could Conference clubs survive higher up the league. 

The RFL could just put some (solvency) criteria in place for any club that is to be promoted.  If you can tick a couple of boxes re bank balance/income streams, then you are in. 

For me, it is an absolute must, as it incentivises clubs to develop and grow. 

Plus, there must be a few clubs out there who can at least hold their own financially, unlike Workington for example who are scrapping about with gofundme pages and threads on here asking for people to save them. There is so much dead wood in League 1, that has survived for generations due to zero threat from below. If League 1 became the top of the pyramid (with only only 1 criteria-based promotion spot from there into Super League 2) then I think we would see improvement from a lot of the existing clubs who would have to get their house in order.

Since Scottish football adopted a promotion/relegation pyramid model into their League 2 a few seasons ago, none of the 'promoted' clubs have remained in League 2, they are all now playing higher!

[Jughead]

A true pyramid sounds nice but it’s a terrible idea, in reality. Most (if not all) amateur clubs in the NCL structure don’t want to get promoted (those in the southern conference appear light years away) and losing clubs in their infancy in new areas for competitions sake is tantamount to a death sentence, which is simply ridiculous. 

 

[Hemi4561]

9 hours ago, OriginalMrC said:

I never said they were. It's quite the opposite, the club has good financial backing and with a move to Birmingham next year has a great chance to grow as a club. 

I was responding to the jibe about throwing good money after bad at 'expansion clubs' 

Sorry MrC my bad, I quoted the wrong post. It was a question for Steve Oates who had said 7 clubs were in danger and included Hurricanes as one of them. 

[steve oates]

18 hours ago, Billy King's Boots said:

When I started this reply, I wasn't sure where it was going to go - but this is how it turned out. I've supported my club for 50 years and we're currently in League 1.

It's hard to have faith/believe in the competition when the RFL patently don't.

The risk in League 1 is that the RFL will just pull the plug/the ladder up and leave the teams in there to wither. Running a RL side on £20k and whatever sponsor/benefactor funding you can beg, steal or borrow, is a thanklessly difficult task - but, in doing so, the clubs in there continue to give Rugby League a presence in some key areas and at a good level on the talent pathway.  The RFL should be thankful that they continue to fly the flag for their/our sport under incredibly challenging conditions and at minimal cost to them. And I believe that they should show their gratitude by supporting their efforts more enthusiastically.
 

Another excellent post.

Looking back to 1996 there were three divisions and about 36 clubs , and today it's pretty much the same.  It seems that when the funding was withdrawn from the lower divisions and Superleague took it all (was this around 2002), this did not deter most if not all of the small clubs from simply carrying on.

The risk as I see it is not really "The RFL" but the Superleague clubs who now have all the power, and are hinting at something like SL1 and SL2  with 12 teams each. There seems to be no answer to "What about the rest" or "is there to be an SL3"???

The rest (13 clubs)  would easily make a decent SL3 in theory, but I have always assumed pulling the TV money will collapse most of these clubs.  That assumption may be wrong based on that last time that TV funding was cut.

So we shall see how it goes, but if at the end of the day RFL & SL have really unified, the question is why has a future been mapped out for only 24 of 37 clubs.

[IM2]

On 01/08/2022 at 22:03, NW10LDN said:

They still have to largely fund themselves though. And it doesn't matter unless you have a strong Super League generating revenue.

they dont have to generate much to pay £16k a year, thats less than £1k a game. 

[IM2]

21 hours ago, Phil W said:

I think the idea of opening up promotion to league one and relegation to the Conference is a good one. My only concern would be financially could Conference clubs survive higher up the league. 

if amateur teams wanted to join the pro ranks they would apply now. they dont want to so this doesnt work. last team to apply was London Skolars who played for 4 years in the NCL

[Blind side johnny]

21 hours ago, Damien said:

I think it's terrible. Almost no amateur clubs want to be professional and the vast majority are in towns with professional clubs. Their entire reason for existing is completely different to a professional club.

Correct. So few people seem to realise that most players at these community clubs prefer to play there, in their leagues, and wouldn't like the "opportunity" to be promoted. The commitment required and the potential downsides are significant and the organisational requirements are daunting. Leave the amateur leagues alone, please.

[Mumby Magic]

41 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

Correct. So few people seem to realise that most players at these community clubs prefer to play there, in their leagues, and wouldn't like the "opportunity" to be promoted. The commitment required and the potential downsides are significant and the organisational requirements are daunting. Leave the amateur leagues alone, please.

Could IMG over the next few years gather bids and proposals from new and existing clubs.

[Programme Guy]

23 hours ago, Damien said:

I think it's terrible. Almost no amateur clubs want to be professional and the vast majority are in towns with professional clubs. Their entire reason for existing is completely different to a professional club.

I love the way you refer to the likes of Hunslet, Workington and Oldham etc as "professional".

They are nowhere NEAR being professional, and never will be. No stadium, tiny budgets, players not even on contracts,gofundme pages to raise 10 grand to save the club.... 

Glorified pub sides!!

[Damien]

1 minute ago, Programme Guy said:

I love the way you refer to the likes of Hunslet, Workington and Oldham etc as "professional".

They are nowhere NEAR being professional, and never will be. No stadium, tiny budgets, players not even on contracts,gofundme pages to raise 10 grand to save the club.... 

Glorified pub sides!!

Well I didn't as I didn't refer to any of those clubs. What a weird post. Again.

[Programme Guy]

4 minutes ago, Damien said:

Well I didn't as I didn't refer to any of those clubs. What a weird post. Again.

The discussion was about amateur clubs replacing existing league clubs within a pyramid structure, and we are talking about League 1. So logically you would be referring to League 1 clubs as "professional".

If you didn't mean them, then: my bad. 

[wiganermike]

15 hours ago, IM2 said:

if amateur teams wanted to join the pro ranks they would apply now. they dont want to so this doesnt work. last team to apply was London Skolars who played for 4 years in the NCL

Though I broadly agree with your point, Coventry Bears were the last pre-existing amateur/community club to apply and join League 1 with Hemel Stags (who subsequently returned to being a community club when it didn't work out) also stepping up after being a long established community club in between Skolars and Coventry entering League 1. WWR were also a pre-established community club before they bought the South Wales Ironmen club to take their place though that wasn't a step up in the same sense as Skolars, Coventry and Hemel.

The NCL clubs do appear to have no interest in stepping up (even though many could outperform the bottom half of League 1) though community clubs established outside the heartlands do sometimes state a desire to eventually make the step up to League 1. So a full pyramid as seen in association football would neither be desirable (as the NCL is seen as the pinnacle of the community game) or produce any change as most clubs earning promotion would decline the promotion.

As for the future of League 1 (i.e those clubs left out of the upcoming restructure at SL/Championship level) it may be necessary if the number of clubs within it is to be maintained that a relaxation of rules is made to allow some clubs to become amateur whilst still competing in League 1 so that any capable of funding a semi-professional existence can do so but that any that cannot do so are not expelled from the competition.

Edited August 6, 2022 by wiganermike

[Blind side johnny]

4 hours ago, wiganermike said:

Though I broadly agree with your point, Coventry Bears were the last pre-existing amateur/community club to apply and join League 1 with Hemel Stags (who subsequently returned to being a community club when it didn't work out) also stepping up after being a long established community club in between Skolars and Coventry entering League 1. WWR were also a pre-established community club before they bought the South Wales Ironmen club to take their place though that wasn't a step up in the same sense as Skolars, Coventry and Hemel.

The NCL clubs do appear to have no interest in stepping up (even though many could outperform the bottom half of League 1) though community clubs established outside the heartlands do sometimes state a desire to eventually make the step up to League 1. So a full pyramid as seen in association football would neither be desirable (as the NCL is seen as the pinnacle of the community game) or produce any change as most clubs earning promotion would decline the promotion.

As for the future of League 1 (i.e those clubs left out of the upcoming restructure at SL/Championship level) it may be necessary if the number of clubs within it is to be maintained that a relaxation of rules is made to allow some clubs to become amateur whilst still competing in League 1 so that any capable of funding a semi-professional existence can do so but that any that cannot do so are not expelled from the competition.

1. Does the designation of "amateur" still exist in RL?

2. I expect that there would be significant difficulties in player contracts of what you suggest were examined closely.

[wiganermike]

1 hour ago, Blind side johnny said:

1. Does the designation of "amateur" still exist in RL?

2. I expect that there would be significant difficulties in player contracts of what you suggest were examined closely.

1. The use or not of the term amateur is semantics really. Our sport chose a few years ago to call the BARLA clubs 'community clubs' rather than amateur. Back in the decades after 1895 such clubs were called junior clubs, I think when Fev and Castleford joined the league back in the 1920s they were still described as junior clubs before stepping up (but enough of that tangent). There is nothing to stop a club that pays its playing roster styling itself as a community club so I use the term amateur in order to distinguish between those clubs paying players and those not.

2. Would a player not being paid to play have a contract? They would be registered to play for a particular club to prevent constant switching but I wouldn't expect much else. In such a scenario a club would be wholly amateur (not a mix with some players being paid and some not). Given the disparity between the top and bottom of League 1 as it stands now I don't imagine things would change much with regard to fitness and playing standards across the league when comparing top of the table to the bottom end. Instances of League 1 clubs losing to amateur (community) clubs have been much more common than they used to be, and this has not only happened to expansion clubs.

Finally, as I am a fan of a SL club and can make such suggestions with a certain degree of detachment... 

An open question to fans of current League 1 clubs, or of clubs faced with a possibility of being in League 1 post-restructure. If funding/support was withdrawn from League 1 as many fear and it meant the continued existence of your club as opposed to its demise, would you rather see your club become amateur and continue to play in League 1 or to see them fold and disappear altogether?

[JF1]

After last week's poor home performance against the Hurricanes,I saw a couple of posts on Facebook suggesting Hunslet should call it a day.

As a supporter for over 50 years(do I get a Medal!),I sincerely hope there is a future for League 1 clubs. Indeed,we have a meeting next week at the stadium where the future possibilities are being discussed,so we shall see.

If it is decided we are no longer wanted,I feel inclined to call time on rugby league and pursue my other interests.This would include my annual trip to Wembley(other grounds are available)for the cup final.

Sad,but that's how I feel.

[Blind side johnny]

47 minutes ago, wiganermike said:

1. The use or not of the term amateur is semantics really. Our sport chose a few years ago to call the BARLA clubs 'community clubs' rather than amateur. Back in the decades after 1895 such clubs were called junior clubs, I think when Fev and Castleford joined the league back in the 1920s they were still described as junior clubs before stepping up (but enough of that tangent). There is nothing to stop a club that pays its playing roster styling itself as a community club so I use the term amateur in order to distinguish between those clubs paying players and those not.

2. Would a player not being paid to play have a contract? They would be registered to play for a particular club to prevent constant switching but I wouldn't expect much else. In such a scenario a club would be wholly amateur (not a mix with some players being paid and some not). Given the disparity between the top and bottom of League 1 as it stands now I don't imagine things would change much with regard to fitness and playing standards across the league when comparing top of the table to the bottom end. Instances of League 1 clubs losing to amateur (community) clubs have been much more common than they used to be, and this has not only happened to expansion clubs.

Finally, as I am a fan of a SL club and can make such suggestions with a certain degree of detachment... 

An open question to fans of current League 1 clubs, or of clubs faced with a possibility of being in League 1 post-restructure. If funding/support was withdrawn from League 1 as many fear and it meant the continued existence of your club as opposed to its demise, would you rather see your club become amateur and continue to play in League 1 or to see them fold and disappear altogether?

For those clubs that own their own grounds, like mine, the first option would not be feasible. Maintaining a ground is impossible below a certain financial critical mass, which would be the case if it were to switch to amateur without any central funding or a benevolent owner.

[Derwent Parker]

29 minutes ago, JF1 said:

After last week's poor home performance against the Hurricanes,I saw a couple of posts on Facebook suggesting Hunslet should call it a day.

As a supporter for over 50 years(do I get a Medal!),I sincerely hope there is a future for League 1 clubs. Indeed,we have a meeting next week at the stadium where the future possibilities are being discussed,so we shall see.

If it is decided we are no longer wanted,I feel inclined to call time on rugby league and pursue my other interests.This would include my annual trip to Wembley(other grounds are available)for the cup final.

Sad,but that's how I feel.

Lot of us up here in Workington who also qualify for same said medal. 

regarding Central funding and Ignoring championship for a moment because i dont think anybody really knows what each team is on?

When you look at the basics - It is all based on Pure Greed.

Why not Give the L1 teams £100,000  [100K] each per team - that still allows the SuperGreed teams £1.700000 [1.7 Million] each - which would still be £1.69 million more].

How can anyone say they are looking after the whole game and have such a ridiculous disparity

but instead they want L1 to have 0 [Zero] so they can have 1.8 million each.

Pure Greed

If IMG do manage to bring some more money in to the game SG will try and claim it all.

If we want whats best for the whole game it will probably be SKY stopping all the funding then that will take the greed out of the game at least.