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World Cup a year too late for Sam Tomkins?

Scubby

By Scubby
in The General Rugby League Forum

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Scubby

Scubby

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I love Sam Tomkins as a player but do wonder if the RLWC delay has really pushed away his chances of making an impact? He is still a very talented and influential player and can create things with ball in hand. However, full back is a position that shows no mercy - especially in defence - and the chasing back and cover defence of old is simply not at that elite level anymore.

Much like Elliott Whitehead it feels like the extra year has taken its toll. He should be in the squad for sure but he was a certainty as England full back and captain 12 months ago. I'm not so sure now - he picks up so many niggling injuries.

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Dunbar

Dunbar

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The only question to ask is 'is he the best option we have today'? If yes then he plays, if not, go with the better option.

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"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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Tommygilf

Tommygilf

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11 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

The only question to ask is 'is he the best option we have today'? If yes then he plays, if not, go with the better option.

True, though the additional factor of him being Captain does change it from a clear cut decision as you say.

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Dunbar

Dunbar

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5 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

True, though the additional factor of him being Captain does change it from a clear cut decision as you say.

It may do yes.  Although, I don't believe that it should be a key factor.  The captain is not as critical a role in League as it is in other sports.

I think you pick the best squad / team and then decide who the captain is rather than pick a captain and play him no matter what.  We will have enough senior players to name a captain.

Personally, I think Tomkins still offers enough in shifting the ball to warrant selection as a starting full back and so captain.

Welsby would be in the aquad and 17 and may even replace Tomkins if form demands.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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DavidM

DavidM

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8 minutes ago, graveyard johnny said:

wane will pick tomkins williams and whitehead regardless of form-none of them are of international standard anymore 

It’s an important point . Loyalty , experience , know how against youthful exuberance , inexperience yet form . Course it’s not either / or and the best squads have a mix , but I do feel maybe wrongly that Wane is big on experience and what he knows . Now with australia for instance talking of guys like Sua’ali’i , Cobbo etc and other young superstars around we’ve got to make sure we get it right or we could be left playing a game of years ago against a game of now . We’ll see . 

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Dunbar

Dunbar

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17 minutes ago, graveyard johnny said:

wane will pick tomkins williams and whitehead regardless of form-none of them are of international standard anymore 

Who would you pick in the starting line up instead of these three.

I'm nor arguing with you, I am big fan of picking on talent and form irrelevant of age... just interested in who are your choices.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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Tommygilf

Tommygilf

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9 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

It may do yes.  Although, I don't believe that it should be a key factor.  The captain is not as critical a role in League as it is in other sports.

I think you pick the best squad / team and then decide who the captain is rather than pick a captain and play him no matter what.  We will have enough senior players to name a captain.

Personally, I think Tomkins still offers enough in shifting the ball to warrant selection as a starting full back and so captain.

Welsby would be in the aquad and 17 and may even replace Tomkins if form demands.

I do get that, but I have seen leaderless teams and teams with 2 excellent standout leaders amongst a squad of leaders and the difference is staggering.

I believe a few months/years ago, the question of England captain came up. The main outcome of that as I remember was that there was no standout option who was either a) a good captain or b) guaranteed to start.

FWIW I think Wane will pick Tomkins regardless. He is his man. 

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Dave T

Dave T

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Tomkins offers little danger in open-field play on kick returns, but I think we can afford to carry him there if we get our wingers right and have real pacey three-quarters. I think he offers a lot of experience and direction and is still a very good link player, so I'd be happy with him there. 

I think with Williams, Lomax, Welsby and Tomkins we have a few combinations there, it will depend on form and injuries. Am I missing anybody obvious? 

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Dave T

Dave T

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2 minutes ago, DavidM said:

What about Tomkins at 7 and Welsby at fullback 

 

Just now, bobbruce said:

I think that’s how Wane will go. 

I think Williams is our best 7, and I do think Wane rates him too, so it'll be interesting to see what the thoughts are on Lomax. 

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JM2010

JM2010

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23 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Who would you pick in the starting line up instead of these three.

I'm nor arguing with you, I am big fan of picking on talent and form irrelevant of age... just interested in who are your choices.

I'd pick Welsby at FB and Watkins in 2nd row on current form. Not sure about 7 though 

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DavidM

DavidM

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Just looking back I’m quite surprised to be reminded that we had Brown and Gale in the halves for the World Cup final . Bateman and Watkins in the centres . Widdop at full back . I’d hope we have a better backline . The forwards then looked strong 

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Jughead

Jughead

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15 minutes ago, Dave T said:

 

I think Williams is our best 7, and I do think Wane rates him too, so it'll be interesting to see what the thoughts are on Lomax. 

I don’t think it’s ever been mentioned if Lomax will play at the World Cup. His injury was deemed that “it couldn’t get any worse” by Saints so they’ve bandaged him up and get him through games. I’m not sure whether that’s purely to aid Saints because then the first choice halves would have both missed the rest of the season or whether Lomax wants to push through to the World Cup too as at 31, he’s not going to be around for the next World Cup and he wants one more crack at that. 

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Dave T

Dave T

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1 minute ago, Jughead said:

I don’t think it’s ever been mentioned if Lomax will play at the World Cup. His injury was deemed that “it couldn’t get any worse” by Saints so they’ve bandaged him up and get him through games. I’m not sure whether that’s purely to aid Saints because then the first choice halves would have both missed the rest of the season or whether Lomax wants to push through to the World Cup too as at 31, he’s not going to be around for the next World Cup and he wants one more crack at that. 

Yeah, that's what I wasn't sure about. I wonder whether he could at least be a squad player and be used a touch sparingly to keep him in for his quality and experience and Welsby or Tomkins replace him where appropriate. 

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daz39

daz39

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1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

Who would you pick in the starting line up instead of these three.

I'm nor arguing with you, I am big fan of picking on talent and form irrelevant of age... just interested in who are your choices.

If that's the case then Watkins and McQueen both should be in with a shout at the moment

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Mr Frisky

Mr Frisky

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Think Tomkins has lost some pace but his game management and leadership qualities have really come through over the past 4 seasons.

Still our best fullback and can also play in the halfs if injury or form need him to move position. Think Tomkins moving into the halfs if our first choice are injured would be a better option than Welsby - would always have him on the bench though.

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EastLondonMike

EastLondonMike

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I’ve always been a Sam Tomkins fan, but for a while now have felt that we should start with Welsby at FB. Tomkins talent is undoubted but don’t think he’ll have anywhere near the same level of impact at the WC, against some very good defences, that he has had in SL.

Not saying Welsbys skill level is greater, but think he offers a bit more in areas where he could have more of an impact. His speed and physical effort in attack and defence would be more beneficial.

like most I do however think Wane will start with Tomkins and others that are considered tried and tested. Much like most coaches in all sports tend to do.

Newham Dockers - Champions 2013. Rugby League For East London. 100% Cockney Rugby League!

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