Dunbar Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 6 hours ago, ghost crayfish said: It'd be better if Australia had a go at naming by position, of course. But I understand why they didn't want to - the very idea of it goes against their stated selection policy. The simple fact is they shouldn't have had to make the choice - it's a weird rule to have imposed, for no real gain that I can see? It's just typical brain fart rugby league administration creating issues where there weren't any. I think, and have stated on here many times, that the World Cup organisers have nailed every decision. But I just can't see it with this one. I just don't understand the value in using non positional numbers. And it seems like I have to say on this thread that this is because I believe that the positional numbers are better for people to watch and enjoy the game, particularly new people. It is not just a personal preference. If squad numbers had clear benefits, I would agree we should use them whatever my personal preferences are. 5 "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 I think we're overemphasising the importance of the numbers - although my preference would be for 1-17 in each game - because the way new fans will pick up what is important in the game and who is doing what and why will be, in the main, through the commentary. I'll give an example of what I mean. The regular BBC cricket commentary does not bother to explain why one shot might be a four and one a six. It's obvious in the main. When cricket was at the Commonwealth Games, the exact same commentators, clearly with instructions about widening access to new viewers, clearly took time out to slot in comments about why this shot to the boundary was being reviewed on the TV and what it would mean depending on where the ball bounced. This was about the only thing the RLWC in 2000 tried to get right. It had specific announcements explaining what each penalty or decision was for. 1 Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 (edited) 21 hours ago, Dunbar said: But surely, that is exactly the reason why Meninga doesn't want to do it - when he has to decide as the tournament progresses who out of Cleary or DCE has earned the #7 shirt or Grant or Hunt for #9 and so on. Awarding these numbers now is exactly what he is trying to avoid and you point here backs up his decision. That is why I prefer the shirt by position number, any one who watches old You Tube videos of games containing players we are not familiar with they are readily identifiable firstly by their position. And it takes away any favouritism that the coach wants to avoid. Edited October 7, 2022 by Harry Stottle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 21 hours ago, Damien said: For being captain. What's up with the arm band method? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 21 hours ago, Gomersall said: If squad numbers were in place for the 1982 Kangaroo tour Steve Mortimer and Wally Lewis would have been 6 and 7. Neither played in the first Test. Just picture Kenny and Sterling running out in 22 and 23 for example. Aye, but common sense prevailed back then. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATLANTISMAN Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 Whats the problem with 1 to 13 this number system is ridiculous Paul 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 Whether we believe in the benefits, it is quite clear what the principles behind squad numbers are. Identification of players is a clear one. Players can be identified with a consistent number throughout the short tournament. When you are putting the game in front of hopefully millions of new fans, it can help them, they are used to this in football for example. The one being ignored is the narrative it can help to create. This one has been a big story, but, I expect there will be a fair bit of discussion around England's and the Kiwis in particular. I expect there are logistical benefits for teams too. On the flip side, whilst traditional numbers are popular, in reality, we see a lot more fluidity around positions and roles within a team now. We will often have a fullback or Hooker feeding the scrum. A prop running from standoff and plenty of players interchange during a game. My personal preference is still 1 to 13, I don't like there not being a number 6 on a field for example (my favourite RL position), and I always hate the fa t that Aussies often have their 2 and 5 the opposite way round to the English game. But in reality, we are talking personal preference with all of this. None of it excuses the Aussies of trashing it because they don't want to play along. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 21 hours ago, Dave T said: We've also never had captains challenge. Maybe England should just be silly with it to make a point. Now you mention that Dave, are there any peculiarities of the rules in this tournament? I haven't seen anything published. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 (edited) 1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said: Now you mention that Dave, are there any peculiarities of the rules in this tournament? I haven't seen anything published. I *think* it is just that Harry. Dutton confirmed that there are minor interpretations to iron out, but these are very minor compared to previous tournaments. He did say help videos would be produced. Edited October 7, 2022 by Dave T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 The only possible benefit I can see to having squad numbers is to facilitate having names on jerseys. If we aren't doing that, and we aren't, then it seems a bit pointless. We are losing the advantages of positional numbers and a 1-17 for no gain. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 7 minutes ago, Damien said: The only possible benefit I can see to having squad numbers is to facilitate having names on jerseys. If we aren't doing that, and we aren't, then it seems a bit pointless. We are losing the advantages of positional numbers and a 1-17 for no gain. Despite my personal preference for playing numbers 1 to 17 in each game, if we were using squad numbers and names on the shirts I would agree there would be some advantages to that. I would probably see positional numbers as better but would agree that squad numbers and names at least offered value in creating higher profiles for players etc. But without this, all I can see this doing is making the admin easier. Not really the best rationale for making such a decision. 1 "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 28 minutes ago, gingerjon said: I think we're overemphasising the importance of the numbers - although my preference would be for 1-17 in each game - because the way new fans will pick up what is important in the game and who is doing what and why will be, in the main, through the commentary. I'll give an example of what I mean. The regular BBC cricket commentary does not bother to explain why one shot might be a four and one a six. It's obvious in the main. When cricket was at the Commonwealth Games, the exact same commentators, clearly with instructions about widening access to new viewers, clearly took time out to slot in comments about why this shot to the boundary was being reviewed on the TV and what it would mean depending on where the ball bounced. This was about the only thing the RLWC in 2000 tried to get right. It had specific announcements explaining what each penalty or decision was for. I agree with that Ginger, but with the best will in the world the Commentators on a live RL game will not be afforded the time that cricket Commentators have between deliveries to explain the complexities. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleEyePie Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 I'm really not sure why this has become such a big deal. I mean I do like things to be a certain way and feel like the Aussie's have outed themselves as the type of people that wouldn't order their CD's alphabetically by band, then by album release date, but being wrong isn't the worst thing in the world. The argument for positional numbers is even without knowing the names of players you know what position is which by the number of their backs (most of the time anyway, as I'm pretty sure the rule is you allocate 1-17 pre-game and that it's not mandatory that fullback is 1, hooker is 9 etc. as I've often seen exceptions to this). The argument for squad numbers is that without knowing the names of the players they are still recognisable from one game to the next by the numbers they wear. If number 17 has a great game for Greece a casual fan could look out for number 17 in the next game, even if they played the first game at stand off and the next game on the wing. Does it really matter? I don't think it does. It's not really going to affect the game in any way, other than if you're a new fan and go along to watch a game with a traditionalist you're going to be bored to death by them banging on about squad numbers. 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StandOffHalf Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 (edited) I know as a young boy over here in Ireland that the numbering system was a big part of why I became such a fan of rugby league. I had grown up with rugby union and I loved the fact that RL started from the full-back at #1. I've always talked with pride to family members that RL has maintained that tradition down through the years. I was watching a short documentary from the 1960s on NZ rugby union a while back and the full-back was wearing #1. They did away with that in the 1960s. I hope these squad numbers for internationals do not catch on. They are already damaging, disrupting and undermining the heritage of the game. Edited October 7, 2022 by StandOffHalf 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 7 minutes ago, EagleEyePie said: Does it really matter? I don't think it does. The only thing I can relate it to was my own experience. When I discovered and fell in love with Rugby League I went to every game I could and watched every TV game I could. At the befinning, I didn't know who any of the player were but I learned the game by watching the teams play and understood what each position needed to do based on the number of their shirt... it simply helped me to learn and enjoy the game. If it were today, I couldn't do that with the squad numbers used in the UK and now the World Cup. I would argue it is even more important in the modern game. Yes, a 9 can be at loose forward in a scrum but the counter is that the full back is now the key attacking player on the pitch, creating space and overlaps on both sides of the pitch. I want to see the shapes and structures of 6, 1, 12 and 4 on a shift play to see which players execute to provide space for the winger. It doesn't matter for me now, I know all the positions and the best players (I will probably be a bit lost in Lebanon or Greece games). I am thinking of the next generation not being able to pick up the game like I did because we have decided that letting new fans know what position players are in, and what those positions do, is a thing of the past. 2 1 "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 26 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: I agree with that Ginger, but with the best will in the world the Commentators on a live RL game will not be afforded the time that cricket Commentators have between deliveries to explain the complexities. It's not even time, it's ability and willingness to do so. It's the difference between listening to Jonathan Davies saying again and again that every try was down to poor defence, whilst Tony Rea (as an example) explains why this pass drew out the defensive line and what the guy running there was doing. 1 Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audois Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 Is that right - Sydney Roosters coach Trent Robinson has joined the French Group in England? "It involves matters much greater than drafting the new rules...the original and existing games have their own powerful appeal to their players and public and have the sentiments which history inspires" - Harold 'Jersey' Flegg 1933 "Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart." - Jean Roque, Calendrier-revue du Racing-Club Albigeois, 1958-1959 Si tu( Remi Casty) devais envoyer un fax au Président Guasch? " Un grand bravo pour ce que vous avez fait,et merci de m 'avoir embarqué dans cette aventure" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SydneyRoosters Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 7 minutes ago, audois said: Is that right - Sydney Roosters coach Trent Robinson has joined the French Group in England? Yeah he’s been joined for like a year now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Browny Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 4 hours ago, Damien said: The only possible benefit I can see to having squad numbers is to facilitate having names on jerseys. If we aren't doing that, and we aren't, then it seems a bit pointless. We are losing the advantages of positional numbers and a 1-17 for no gain. It also helps with pre-printed programmes / teamsheets (if we are doing that). If I'm going to several games a little programme with all the numbers in is great when I want to know who a certain player is. 2 I can confirm 30+ less sales for Scotland vs Italy at Workington, after this afternoons test purchase for the Tonga match, £7.50 is extremely reasonable, however a £2.50 'delivery' fee for a walk in purchase is beyond taking the mickey, good luck with that, it's cheaper on the telly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 11 minutes ago, audois said: Is that right - Sydney Roosters coach Trent Robinson has joined the French Group in England? Trent Robinson is easily my favourite person in the whole of professional Rugby League. He is a great coach who wants the game to be played in the right way (no laying down to win penalties), he loves international Rugby League (WCC and internationals) and he invests his own time into helping develop these things. Top, top man. 3 "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlno1 Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 Whilst I am not a fan of the numbering system for this World Cup upto the mid 70's touring teams carried squad numbers. Here is the 1970 Gt Britain team v Australia. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Browny Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 1 minute ago, rlno1 said: Whilst I am not a fan of the numbering system for this World Cup upto the mid 70's touring teams carried squad numbers. Here is the 1970 Gt Britain team v Australia. Outstanding work. Squad numbers must save a few quid compared to printing a load of shirts with each number in different sizes too. I can confirm 30+ less sales for Scotland vs Italy at Workington, after this afternoons test purchase for the Tonga match, £7.50 is extremely reasonable, however a £2.50 'delivery' fee for a walk in purchase is beyond taking the mickey, good luck with that, it's cheaper on the telly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 1 minute ago, rlno1 said: Whilst I am not a fan of the numbering system for this World Cup upto the mid 70's touring teams carried squad numbers. Here is the 1970 Gt Britain team v Australia. That's interesting. The GB squad was named with 3 to be omitted for game day. Did they play the game with these numbers or were they 1 - 13 on the day? "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 1 minute ago, Dunbar said: That's interesting. The GB squad was named with 3 to be omitted for game day. Did they play the game with these numbers or were they 1 - 13 on the day? Just checked a video on Youtube. Yes, they played in these numbers. 1 "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted October 7, 2022 Share Posted October 7, 2022 Just now, Dunbar said: Just checked a video on Youtube. Yes, they played in these numbers. Jeez. That suggests there is some tradition in squad numbers. We're gonna have to go back to the start of this debate.... 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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