Toulouse out of pocket again

[Damien]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes it's a new approach Damien, and it is one that I I imagine you will hopefully end in failure so you can add it to your hatred list of Leigh Centurions it does come across very loud and clear, but I couldn't give a monkeys f*^£ what you think, my only hope is that Leigh can consolidate in SL and stay there for a good while piffing you off.

I don't hate Leigh, what a weird thing to think.

[yipyee]

3 hours ago, David Shepherd said:

What's the incentive to invest and improve if there are no consequences for not winning games?

Because no one likes loosing, the consequence is not getting into the play offs.

Several leagues do not have P&R the biggest sporting league in the world does not have P&R

[Tubby]

5 hours ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

Harry, I am only just using your paragraph here to raise a general point based on the away supporter discussion.  So please do not take it personally.

If Leigh get Promoted.

Of course it is a no brainer that Wigan would rather have 3,000 Leigh supporters generating approx £100k than no Toulouse supporters.  I would also assume that Saints and Warrington would prefer Leigh to gain promotion as they will receive a reasonable increase in income for home games v Leigh.  So in RL terms 3 teams will have a good financial gain.

But if next season Leigh only take AN AVERAGE of 500 supporters to games at Salford and East of the Pennines that only generates around £15k more for each club when compared to nil supporters from Toulouse.  Not a massive amount to those clubs.

If Fev get Promoted.

Then Cas, Wakey and Leeds are the clubs that should benefit most as Fev would take an average of 2-3,000 supporters to those games.

But as with Leigh, Fev would probably only take an average of 500 supporters to clubs West of the Pennines, Huddersfield, Hull and Hull KR.  So again that would be worth on average around £15k to each club.

So simply put if Toulouse are promoted for the 2024 SL season and for arguments sake let’s say either Fev or Leigh are relegated then only 3 clubs local to the relegated club would be greatly impacted in comparison to 7 others that will be impacted minimally.  

Is the above a strong enough argument for IMG to propose an M62 competition at the expense of French clubs?

To me, the argument isn’t that Leigh or Featherstone provide more than Toulouse to the other SL teams, it’s just that the transverse isn’t true either. 

The clamour for more french teams is generally accompanied by what they will ‘bring to SL’ and it’s my contention that it is no more or less than any other team. 

it is indisputable that TO bring a more cosmopolitan look to SL, but a new English team in SL would bring higher crowds.

Both offer positives and negatives. As far as I can see, neither is materially ‘better’ than the other, it’s just personal preference. 

[Tubby]

5 hours ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

 

Edited August 28, 2022 by Tubby
Double post

[David Shepherd]

29 minutes ago, yipyee said:

Because no one likes loosing, the consequence is not getting into the play offs.

Several leagues do not have P&R the biggest sporting league in the world does not have P&R

That's ok if watching a succession of dead rubbers in the final 1/3 of the season floats your boat.

Personally, I can't think of anything worse.

[glossop saint]

46 minutes ago, yipyee said:

Because no one likes loosing, the consequence is not getting into the play offs.

Several leagues do not have P&R the biggest sporting league in the world does not have P&R

I am shocked why so many people seem to think that players won't try to win if there is no consequence of losing. What about professional pride? Or just wanting to win a game in which you are playing? Surely every sportsperson wants to win?

And if they don't then that is on the manager/chairman who signed those players. Not a fault of any system.

[kiggy]

57 minutes ago, Tubby said:

To me, the argument isn’t that Leigh or Featherstone provide more than Toulouse to the other SL teams, it’s just that the transverse isn’t true either. 

The clamour for more french teams is generally accompanied by what they will ‘bring to SL’ and it’s my contention that it is no more or less than any other team. 

it is indisputable that TO bring a more cosmopolitan look to SL, but a new English team in SL would bring higher crowds.

Both offer positives and negatives. As far as I can see, neither is materially ‘better’ than the other, it’s just personal preference. 

I think that European teams should be encouraged to "bring" as much as they can to SL Europe. Stronger teams outside of the UK, coupled with a growing fan base can only be good for all teams. If you have to rely on NRL players to boost your chances of promotion to said SL (Leigh, Toulouse, etc), then the local pool of players is getting shallower. Why not promote the game in other rugby playing countries such as France, Italy, Georgia etc. It would only make the player pool stronger. Otherwise we get the same old same old merry-go-round of players shifting from team to team each season.

[Tubby]

8 minutes ago, kiggy said:

I think that European teams should be encouraged to "bring" as much as they can to SL Europe. Stronger teams outside of the UK, coupled with a growing fan base can only be good for all teams. If you have to rely on NRL players to boost your chances of promotion to said SL (Leigh, Toulouse, etc), then the local pool of players is getting shallower. Why not promote the game in other rugby playing countries such as France, Italy, Georgia etc. It would only make the player pool stronger. Otherwise we get the same old same old merry-go-round of players shifting from team to team each season.

Absolutely, but promoting the game doesn’t necessarily mean providing SL places to every team from every country. 

I believe we have two main factions, the first wants to close SL, remove P&R and try to grow the competition by simply planting a new team in an entirely new location; this at the cost effectively casting aside all remaining ‘M62’ clubs. 

The other believes that P&R is sacrosanct and giving those M62 clubs the opportunity to achieve all that they can is the only way forward. 

It is no coincidence that, with one or two notable exceptions, the former consists of supporters of Clubs who are already in SL and supporters of clubs in expansion areas and the latter are supporters of championship and L1 clubs. 

In my opinion, this is unlikely to ever change and we will continue to whine and bicker and attempt to belittle one another for our beliefs until RL finally succeeds or collapses. 

[Damien]

2 minutes ago, Tubby said:

Absolutely, but promoting the game doesn’t necessarily mean providing SL places to every team from every country. 

I believe we have two main factions, the first wants to close SL, remove P&R and try to grow the competition by simply planting a new team in an entirely new location; this at the cost effectively casting aside all remaining ‘M62’ clubs. 

The other believes that P&R is sacrosanct and giving those M62 clubs the opportunity to achieve all that they can is the only way forward. 

It is no coincidence that, with one or two notable exceptions, the former consists of supporters of Clubs who are already in SL and supporters of clubs in expansion areas and the latter are supporters of championship and L1 clubs. 

In my opinion, this is unlikely to ever change and we will continue to whine and bicker and attempt to belittle one another for our beliefs until RL finally succeeds or collapses. 

A third way is to set aside 2 places for French clubs and for English clubs to retain P&R with the Championship.

[Tubby]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

A third way is to set aside 2 places for French clubs and for English clubs to retain P&R with the Championship.

But there will always be a Newcastle or Celtic Crusaders as well. My point is more about the fatuous arguments on here. 

I’m not sure about relegating a club who don’t finish bottom, but I also have no better solution.  Which clubs deserve to be saved and which don’t? 

I would love to see sustainable expansion and I also believe it’s feasible, but it doesn’t need to be at the cost of the existing clubs. We need to augment, not replace. 

Edited August 28, 2022 by Tubby
Mistyped

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

A third way is to set aside 2 places for French clubs and for English clubs to retain P&R with the Championship.

Never, I just don't get this ringfencing of club's playing in the same league system competing for the same points, and being in a position where a club could effectively get relegated for finishing 3rd bottom.

 

[David Shepherd]

46 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Never, I just don't get this ringfencing of club's playing in the same league system competing for the same points, and being in a position where a club could effectively get relegated for finishing 3rd bottom.

 

It's got to be the same rules for everyone. And that includes if we go down the god awful licensing route, which we all know was opaque and even corrupt last time it happened.

[David Shepherd]

2 hours ago, Damien said:

A third way is to set aside 2 places for French clubs and for English clubs to retain P&R with the Championship.

So basically, the two French clubs could be as carp as they liked without consequence? They could turn up every year, trouser Sky's £2m and lose every game.

What happens when a third ambitious French club comes along? How do they get into your cosy little club?

[Damien]

8 minutes ago, David Shepherd said:

So basically, the two French clubs could be as carp as they liked without consequence? They could turn up every year, trouser Sky's £2m and lose every game.

What happens when a third ambitious French club comes along? How do they get into your cosy little club?

That's up to the French game to sort out. If they wanted P&R with their league they can but there's no one strong enough so it would be pretty pointless. As P&R is so precious to some then it's the best of both worlds solution. The trouble is self interest rules and we just get the usual moaning no matter what.

[yipyee]

2 hours ago, Damien said:

A third way is to set aside 2 places for French clubs and for English clubs to retain P&R with the Championship.

Or a fourth, licensing where clubs that can add to the top tier are means tested and given a license... P&R lovers hate this as it means that their small time pit village teams can't just sign a load of has beens to gain promotion.

 

[GUBRATS]

4 hours ago, yipyee said:

Because no one likes loosing, the consequence is not getting into the play offs.

Several leagues do not have P&R the biggest sporting league in the world does not have P&R

Go watching that then , we do have it 

[Adelaide Tiger]

4 hours ago, David Shepherd said:

That's ok if watching a succession of dead rubbers in the final 1/3 of the season floats your boat.

Personally, I can't think of anything worse.

It may surprise people that 6 of the top 8 sports worldwide with the highest average attendance in 2019 - prior to Covid - are all closed shop leagues.  They are the NFL, Indian Premier League, Aussie Rules, Big Bash Cricket (Australia), Japanese Baseball and Major League Baseball.  The other two are the EPL and Bundesliga.

Those sports are incredibly effective at encouraging people to attend ‘dead rubbers’; generate high levels of corporate sponsorship; have eye watering TV income; have high profile media exposure etc.

RL/SL in the UK is just like any other sport and irrespective of its size has the same type of challenges in trying to increasing people attending; increasing corporate sponsorship; increasing TV income; increasing media exposure etc. 

If your first thought is ‘How can you compare SL to those six leagues mentioned above’ then IMHO you are completely missing the point.  It is all about scale and process.  SL does not need to become a behemoth but it can learn from processes adopted by those leagues.

So I hope that both the Closed Shop model* and P&R model are looked at with honesty and transparency to see which model will be most beneficial for the next 10-20 years for rugby league and not for the short term view.

* IMHO a closed shop model should look at inviting a new member to join every three years

[Big Picture]

59 minutes ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

It may surprise people that 6 of the top 8 sports worldwide with the highest average attendance in 2019 - prior to Covid - are all closed shop leagues.  They are the NFL, Indian Premier League, Aussie Rules, Big Bash Cricket (Australia), Japanese Baseball and Major League Baseball.  The other two are the EPL and Bundesliga.

Those sports are incredibly effective at encouraging people to attend ‘dead rubbers’; generate high levels of corporate sponsorship; have eye watering TV income; have high profile media exposure etc.

RL/SL in the UK is just like any other sport and irrespective of its size has the same type of challenges in trying to increasing people attending; increasing corporate sponsorship; increasing TV income; increasing media exposure etc. 

If your first thought is ‘How can you compare SL to those six leagues mentioned above’ then IMHO you are completely missing the point.  It is all about scale and process.  SL does not need to become a behemoth but it can learn from processes adopted by those leagues.

So I hope that both the Closed Shop model* and P&R model are looked at with honesty and transparency to see which model will be most beneficial for the next 10-20 years for rugby league and not for the short term view.

* IMHO a closed shop model should look at inviting a new member to join every three years

You make a good point, but so would those who would ask how you can compare SL to those other six leagues.  Those six are all spread out on a national scale (international in the case of Major League Baseball) whereas SL is and for that matter always has been just a little M62 league with an outpost team (or sometimes two, just briefly though) somewhere else, so you really are comparing apples and oranges there.

There's no doubt that northern hemisphere RL needs a league which would compare to those six, but you'll never turn SL into that for the simple reason that a great gulf exists between it and them, a gulf which SL can never cross.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Big Picture

[Adelaide Tiger]

24 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

You make a good point, but so would those who would ask how you can compare SL to those other six leagues.  Those six are all spread out on a national scale (international in the case of Major League Baseball) whereas SL is and for that matter always has been just a little M62 league with an outpost team (or sometimes two, just briefly though) somewhere else, so you really are comparing apples and oranges there.

There's no doubt that northern hemisphere RL needs a league which would compare to those six, but you'll never turn SL into that for the simple reason that a great gulf exists between it and them, a gulf which SL can never cross.

BP. I am sure some on here will have a go at me for my post.

Firstly, I mentioned those 6 leagues purely in response to the post from my old work colleague David Shepherd who quoted that he would not watch ‘dead rubbers’ in a closed shop league.  However, it is obvious that tens/hundreds of thousands of people do watch ‘dead rubbers’ in sports that operate a closed shop.

Secondly, I have not stated that SL has the capability to be as big as those sports or close the gulf between them as that would be totally preposterous.

My main point was that success is relative and relative success can be achieved through scale and processes that you implement.

SCALE - SL is concentrated into a relatively small geographical area but it has a population of probably 8 million within 30 minutes of an SL ground.  Let’s pretend that one of the KPI’s for the next 10 years is for SL to average 15k per game then in terms of scale that is just as ambitious as the NFL wanting to attract 70k.

But how do you achieve that scale?

PROCESS - Whether you are a sporting organisation a la RFL/SL or a new start up making widgets you should study organisations in your respective field to understand the processes that they use to be successful.  Surely the whole reason IMG are involved is that even SL bosses and Chairmen accept SL has stagnated so is in need of new ideas and processes.  So I suggested that the RFL/SL study both closed shop leagues and other leagues using P&R to create the best model for the future of the game.  Whether that best model is a closed shop or with P&R remains to be seen.

P.S. I do not mind which model is chosen providing it is chosen with honesty and transparency and it is the best model to grow the game and not a model chosen for self interest or appeasement.

 

[Big Picture]

34 minutes ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

BP. I am sure some on here will have a go at me for my post.

Firstly, I mentioned those 6 leagues purely in response to the post from my old work colleague David Shepherd who quoted that he would not watch ‘dead rubbers’ in a closed shop league.  However, it is obvious that tens/hundreds of thousands of people do watch ‘dead rubbers’ in sports that operate a closed shop.

Secondly, I have not stated that SL has the capability to be as big as those sports or close the gulf between them as that would be totally preposterous.

My main point was that success is relative and relative success can be achieved through scale and processes that you implement.

SCALE - SL is concentrated into a relatively small geographical area but it has a population of probably 8 million within 30 minutes of an SL ground.  Let’s pretend that one of the KPI’s for the next 10 years is for SL to average 15k per game then in terms of scale that is just as ambitious as the NFL wanting to attract 70k.

But how do you achieve that scale?

PROCESS - Whether you are a sporting organisation a la RFL/SL or a new start up making widgets you should study organisations in your respective field to understand the processes that they use to be successful.  Surely the whole reason IMG are involved is that even SL bosses and Chairmen accept SL has stagnated so is in need of new ideas and processes.  So I suggested that the RFL/SL study both closed shop leagues and other leagues using P&R to create the best model for the future of the game.  Whether that best model is a closed shop or with P&R remains to be seen.

P.S. I do not mind which model is chosen providing it is chosen with honesty and transparency and it is the best model to grow the game and not a model chosen for self interest or appeasement.

 

Your problem there is that you would need to convince a population which largely knows what RL is that it's not the small time, downmarket regional sport with limited appeal (and therefore not worth their time, attention and money) they think it is, but without changing the things which have given them that opinion of it.  More than new ideas are needed to change their minds about the game.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Big Picture

[Harry Stottle]

7 hours ago, Damien said:

That's up to the French game to sort out. If they wanted P&R with their league they can but there's no one strong enough so it would be pretty pointless. As P&R is so precious to some then it's the best of both worlds solution. The trouble is self interest rules and we just get the usual moaning no matter what.

OK, let's say your protectionist system was in place now, the relegated team as the league stands at the moment would be Warrington, in the very recent past when Leeds were deep in the relegation battle this platform was awash with posters saying if Leeds get relegated the league should not allow it to happen it would be damaging for the game, change the rules and do whatever it takes for Leeds to remain in SL.

I suspect the very same would happen if we were operating your system this season and Warrington were the victims of this ridiculous suggestion.

Would you swop Toulouse for Warrington, or put another way would Lenighan, McManus, Hetherington and co allow that to happen?

What would really happen is ringfence the French club's and that will be OK just so long it is not one if the big boys who it effects.

[gingerjon]

5 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

in the very recent past when Leeds were deep in the relegation battle this platform was awash with posters saying if Leeds get relegated the league should not allow it to happen it would be damaging for the game, change the rules and do whatever it takes for Leeds to remain in SL.

Was it?

There's always a widespread, cynical assumption that rules would be changed to stop big clubs being relegated and there is sometimes an opinion expressed (not always by the same people) that the loss to Super League of a big club would be damaging but ... awash with people say rules should be changed and "do whatever it takes for Leeds to remain in SL" ... really?

[Harry Stottle]

7 hours ago, yipyee said:

Or a fourth, licensing where clubs that can add to the top tier are means tested and given a license... P&R lovers hate this as it means that their small time pit village teams can't just sign a load of has beens to gain promotion.

 

Yep, and let every club who wants to run an academy do so, Established SL teams with Academies hate this as it reduces their fishing pool and the financial advantage they gain for playing lads from their academies.

 

[Harry Stottle]

5 hours ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

It may surprise people that 6 of the top 8 sports worldwide with the highest average attendance in 2019 - prior to Covid - are all closed shop leagues.  They are the NFL, Indian Premier League, Aussie Rules, Big Bash Cricket (Australia), Japanese Baseball and Major League Baseball.  The other two are the EPL and Bundesliga.

Those sports are incredibly effective at encouraging people to attend ‘dead rubbers’; generate high levels of corporate sponsorship; have eye watering TV income; have high profile media exposure etc.

RL/SL in the UK is just like any other sport and irrespective of its size has the same type of challenges in trying to increasing people attending; increasing corporate sponsorship; increasing TV income; increasing media exposure etc. 

If your first thought is ‘How can you compare SL to those six leagues mentioned above’ then IMHO you are completely missing the point.  It is all about scale and process.  SL does not need to become a behemoth but it can learn from processes adopted by those leagues.

So I hope that both the Closed Shop model* and P&R model are looked at with honesty and transparency to see which model will be most beneficial for the next 10-20 years for rugby league and not for the short term view.

* IMHO a closed shop model should look at inviting a new member to join every three years

All very well and good Tiger, but please tell me in the last closed shop process what did it actually achieve, did it improve the quality of the sport? 

I know it nearly decimated the game below SL, that is why in my opinion the closed shop was recinded as the writing was on the wall and the powers that be could not allow it to drop any further, if it returns I will say it will achieve it this time and get the job well and truly done. Fans of Championship club's will turn away from the sport, Owners and sponsors will walk if there is nothing to play for even as you suggest  locking them out for 3 seasons.

[Harry Stottle]

22 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Was it?

There's always a widespread, cynical assumption that rules would be changed to stop big clubs being relegated and there is sometimes an opinion expressed (not always by the same people) that the loss to Super League of a big club would be damaging but ... awash with people say rules should be changed and "do whatever it takes for Leeds to remain in SL" ... really?

Yes Ginger, I hope this is not a condition of your questionable memory, but the number of posts who said it would be devastating if Leeds were relegated were numerous on these pages, would the league have allowed it to happen, would the other chairmen allow it to happen? 

If we were a straight laced sport with scruples that would abide by the rules I would agree, but we are awash with taking knee jerk reaction rule changes to suit when and as conditions arise.

As I said in my answer to Damien, if his French ringfencing was in operation now and Warrington were relegated in preference to Toulouse would it be allowed to happen, we all have our own opinion mine is Warrington would not be allowed to be relegated even if it meant retaining Toulouse in SL and increasing to 13 teams something would be done, I am not to sure the same would apply if it was say Wakefield or Salford or most definitely not a Leigh, Fev or Fax.