gingerjon Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 3 minutes ago, David Shepherd said: No, you're using your own bigotry to tell me what I'm thinking. If you can't see through the posts I'm referring to, that's your issue. Not mine. You're the one telling me (and others) that the people writing on this thread to say they have are angry about the contents of the letter don't really mean it. I'd sort of assumed you had some evidence for thinking that beyond projection. 1 Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Shepherd Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 3 minutes ago, gingerjon said: You're the one telling me (and others) that the people writing on this thread to say they have are angry about the contents of the letter don't really mean it. I'd sort of assumed you had some evidence for thinking that beyond projection. Whatever. There's a reason I had you on ignore. For the life of me I don't know why I took you off. Welcome back to my ignore list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niels Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 14 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said: It's always fascinating when people who criticise others for their bigotry seem so blissfully unaware of their own bigotry. I can't believe the outrage at something that is so minor compared with what women have to suffer on a day to day basis. Women, as we know, suffer many disadvantages in life from men. At the moment we read about horrendous attacks. Sometimes we read about them on here. I always comment as I think these need highlighting. Not everyone does though unfortunately. However a man writes a letter about women's rugby league and suddenly everyone is outraged. I think if there were women on the site then we would have a completely different perspective. However ironically, those we had weren't really treated with respect and left. Posters calling the writer a bigot don't know anything about him. He may have helped many women in his life, served in the war, risked his life. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 54 minutes ago, David Shepherd said: So do I, that doesn't mean I need to go into a faux outrage when I encounter someone who clearly doesn't. See, here is what I don't understand about your position on this thread. The published letter was not just someone stating that he doesn't enjoy or follow Women's Rugby League, it was a specific request/complaint to say that Women players should not be compared to men and their achievements (hero status!) should not be listed in a feature alongside men - this all despite his admission that he knows nothing of the women's game and the achievements of its players. Now, this is pretty much the dictionary definition of bigotry. But your first contribution on this thread was defending his right send it and the right of League Express to publish it. That is all fine. But you seem to draw the line for your tolerances at people who complain about it. That just seems really weird. If you are ok with free speech then be ok with all free speech. If people want to call out his bigotry then that is entirely their right to do so without it being labelled 'cancel culture' or some other lazy term. 4 1 "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 3 minutes ago, Niels said: However a man writes a letter about women's rugby league and suddenly everyone is outraged. It's a rugby league forum. It'd be a bit odd if people were using the main board of TotalRL.com to discuss the endemic of male violence against women and how rape has been effectively decriminalised under this government. Or the face that you can still be prosecuted for abortion in the UK. Or ... well, any number of related things. Because there are other places to do that. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 6 minutes ago, Niels said: Posters calling the writer a bigot Saying a woman's achievements should not be compared to a man's while simultaneously admitting that you know nothing about the women in question is bigotry. No matter how many wars he has fought in (whatever that has to do with it). 7 "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tre Cool Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 6 minutes ago, Niels said: I can't believe the outrage at something that is so minor compared with what women have to suffer on a day to day basis. Women, as we know, suffer many disadvantages in life from men. At the moment we read about horrendous attacks. Sometimes we read about them on here. I always comment as I think these need highlighting. Not everyone does though unfortunately. However a man writes a letter about women's rugby league and suddenly everyone is outraged. I think if there were women on the site then we would have a completely different perspective. However ironically, those we had weren't really treated with respect and left. Posters calling the writer a bigot don't know anything about him. He may have helped many women in his life, served in the war, risked his life. This is a very confused post. Why is it 'outrage' if someone calls out a bigot? There's no 'outrage' just some opinions that it was probably better not to publish it as it's not 1974 anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jughead Posted August 25, 2022 Author Share Posted August 25, 2022 2 minutes ago, Dunbar said: Saying a woman's achievements should not be compared to a man's while simultaneously admitting that you know nothing about the women in question is bigotry. No matter how many wars he has fought in (whatever that has to do with it). But what about if he helped an old lady reach the top shelf in Morrisons one time? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niels Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 (edited) 9 minutes ago, gingerjon said: It's a rugby league forum. It'd be a bit odd if people were using the main board of TotalRL.com to discuss the endemic of male violence against women and how rape has been effectively decriminalised under this government. Or the face that you can still be prosecuted for abortion in the UK. Or ... well, any number of related things. Because there are other places to do that. I meant threads on the forum about violence from rugby league players against women. I can think of one where posters where writing what a great person the player was. I can't remember you speaking up about it. Edited August 25, 2022 by Niels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glossop saint Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 2 hours ago, Niels said: I can't possibly see how on earth you have reached this conclusion. I said the opposite, that with a level playing field girls/women are far better at everything. Academically, sporting included. You said that you only considered a woman a hero if they beat their male equivalents. So beating those of the same gender is not enough but they need to beat men as well. The implication being that it is harder to beat men because they have a natural advantage. I'm not going to celebrate Usain Bolt until he can beat a cheetah. He's OK but not worthy of hero status. You still haven't defined what you think a hero is and based that purely on ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niels Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 3 minutes ago, glossop saint said: You said that you only considered a woman a hero if they beat their male equivalents. So beating those of the same gender is not enough but they need to beat men as well. The implication being that it is harder to beat men because they have a natural advantage. I'm not going to celebrate Usain Bolt until he can beat a cheetah. He's OK but not worthy of hero status. You still haven't defined what you think a hero is and based that purely on ability. I can see where you are coming from. They don't have to beat men to be heroines. However, if they can, it is even more of an achievement. Not because they are not better, but because historically they are told they can't and everything is stacked against them. Therefore for a woman to be successful against them in sport must be absolutely outstanding. My definition is someone who is a groundbreaker who inspires others to do what nobody thought possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Browny Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 2 hours ago, daz39 said: Not a very 'modern opinion' but it's no worse than LE publishing letters abusing match officials, it all a matter of opinion and we cannot censor things just cos we don't agree with them. You've just started a thread saying Wilkin shouldn't be using his platform to praise Myler for his cheating last night. So it turns out we can censor things we don't agree with. I can confirm 30+ less sales for Scotland vs Italy at Workington, after this afternoons test purchase for the Tonga match, £7.50 is extremely reasonable, however a £2.50 'delivery' fee for a walk in purchase is beyond taking the mickey, good luck with that, it's cheaper on the telly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 3 minutes ago, Niels said: I can see where you are coming from. They don't have to beat men to be heroines. However, if they can, it is even more of an achievement. Not because they are not better, but because historically they are told they can't and everything is stacked against them. Therefore for a woman to be successful against them in sport must be absolutely outstanding. My definition is someone who is a groundbreaker who inspires others to do what nobody thought possible. I there is a little bit of flawed logic here. In a sport which is dependent on skill (let's say darts, Curling, bowling, snooker etc.) then a woman beating a man is far more realistic when compared to a sport where size, strength and speed come into the equation - of which Rugby League is clearly one. 3 "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niels Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 1 minute ago, Dunbar said: I there is a little bit of flawed logic here. In a sport which is dependent on skill (let's say darts, Curling, bowling, snooker etc.) then a woman beating a man is far more realistic when compared to a sport where size, strength and speed come into the equation - of which Rugby League is clearly one. Yes, I can see your point. It's a good reply. Some sports are more condusive to this. It's only my opinion of who I admire most. These lists are very subjective. Who do you think as an alternative? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daz39 Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 10 minutes ago, Just Browny said: You've just started a thread saying Wilkin shouldn't be using his platform to praise Myler for his cheating last night. So it turns out we can censor things we don't agree with. No i have asked for people's opinions, and included my own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 1 minute ago, Niels said: Yes, I can see your point. It's a good reply. Some sports are more condusive to this. It's only my opinion of who I admire most. These lists are very subjective. Who do you think as an alternative? Personally I believe that we should only ever look at comparatives on a like for like basis. The concept of comparing achievements of men and women is flawed due to the reasons I mentioned of differences in size, speed and strength. Women Rugby League players should be recognised for their achievements within women's Rugby League. And just that. The frustration I have is that certain people (not saying this is you) suggest that women footballers or rugby players are not as good as the men and then have a 2 hour argument about who is the best pound for pound boxer in the world because they are happy to accept that size and strength should be recognised as a key differentiator in that sport. Recognise achievements within the context that they are achieved and we will not go far wrong. 3 "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hallucinating Goose Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 (edited) 36 minutes ago, glossop saint said: You said that you only considered a woman a hero if they beat their male equivalents. So beating those of the same gender is not enough but they need to beat men as well. The implication being that it is harder to beat men because they have a natural advantage. I'm not going to celebrate Usain Bolt until he can beat a cheetah. He's OK but not worthy of hero status. You still haven't defined what you think a hero is and based that purely on ability. Who else wants to see this now?! Edited August 25, 2022 by The Hallucinating Goose 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 2 hours ago, Dunbar said: Seems to me that this is a perfect description of the guy who wrote the letter. And this forum is just pointing that out. Applied also to club fans, critics of WDL etc etc, of whom there are many more on here than mere contributors to LE postbag. There are those anti-Leugh bigots. There are those anti-Wolfpack bigots there are even anti-Toulouse bigots on here. Anti- Wembley bigots .. There are many who disagree with the sentiments expressed in the guys letter, as you will have seem from reading, comprehending and inwardly digesting the contents of that letter and the responses. Then there are those who would prevent the guy. expressing it. By allowing the expression of his views, firstly, people can learn that someone might think that way; secondly, it gives them the opportunity to respond in a meaningful way, thirdly, it demonstrates their support of an open and free media. Unless, if course, people want to ban the expression of views they don't like. Not that applies to anyone on here of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hallucinating Goose Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 19 minutes ago, Dunbar said: I there is a little bit of flawed logic here. In a sport which is dependent on skill (let's say darts, Curling, bowling, snooker etc.) then a woman beating a man is far more realistic when compared to a sport where size, strength and speed come into the equation - of which Rugby League is clearly one. Ng On Yee is really coming on in snooker at the moment since she's been on the main tour. Won a few matches against established male players, even qualified for the main draw at a couple of tournaments. A definitive hero of snooker! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Browny Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 23 minutes ago, daz39 said: No i have asked for people's opinions, and included my own. Yours being that Wilkin shouldn't have said it. I can confirm 30+ less sales for Scotland vs Italy at Workington, after this afternoons test purchase for the Tonga match, £7.50 is extremely reasonable, however a £2.50 'delivery' fee for a walk in purchase is beyond taking the mickey, good luck with that, it's cheaper on the telly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 20 minutes ago, JohnM said: Applied also to club fans, critics of WDL etc etc, of whom there are many more on here than mere contributors to LE postbag. There are those anti-Leugh bigots. There are those anti-Wolfpack bigots there are even anti-Toulouse bigots on here. Anti- Wembley bigots .. There are many who disagree with the sentiments expressed in the guys letter, as you will have seem from reading, comprehending and inwardly digesting the contents of that letter and the responses. Then there are those who would prevent the guy. expressing it. By allowing the expression of his views, firstly, people can learn that someone might think that way; secondly, it gives them the opportunity to respond in a meaningful way, thirdly, it demonstrates their support of an open and free media. Unless, if course, people want to ban the expression of views they don't like. Not that applies to anyone on here of course. I haven't said the letter shouldn't have been printed. But the letter presented a bigoted view. I am ok that it was printed and I am also happy to laugh at someone who criticizes something and simultaneously admits that he knows nothing about that said something. That kind of thinking deserves ridicule. 1 "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hallucinating Goose Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 Who was the player that was featured in the RL Heroes section that the letter was opposed to anyway? I didn't see it at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 1 hour ago, Niels said: I meant threads on the forum about violence from rugby league players against women. I can think of one where posters where writing what a great person the player was. If you let me know which player you're talking about then I'll be able to check what I did or didn't say at the time. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RP London Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 1 hour ago, Niels said: I can see where you are coming from. They don't have to beat men to be heroines. However, if they can, it is even more of an achievement. Not because they are not better, but because historically they are told they can't and everything is stacked against them. Therefore for a woman to be successful against them in sport must be absolutely outstanding. My definition is someone who is a groundbreaker who inspires others to do what nobody thought possible. if that is the definition for the purpose of the Hero then how many of the men actually do that.. Women playing previously male dominated sports are ground breaking whether that is in a womens team or against men simply because that is how the sport is set up. Loads of those women playing are inspiring other women to play the game or watch the game, they are inspirational in their own right. Why must the woman be "absolutely outstanding" to be on the list of heros when the men dont.. why are they up against a totally different, and artificial, scale than the men I would say that there are a lot more women fitting that definition, inspiration, ground breaker etc in sport today than there are men TBH.. They dont need to be beating men to be inspirational, they need to be there as someone that a young girl could one day become to be an inspiration to them. That is why it is so important articles like that are printed and that women are included in this type of thing.. "you cannot be it if you cannot see it" is very true. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Mead Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 Amazing that this hasn’t been locked yet given the tripe in it and previous locking of threads for similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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