Rotherham

[DavidM]

16 minutes ago, Northern Eel said:

If you use a flat-earth map, could you not just roll it up into a cylinder and then it would be a local derby? Problem solved, right?

Your brain obviuosly works like mine !

[Pie tries]

2 hours ago, Jughead said:

Didn’t Hemel and Oxford cite a small player pool as one of the reasons for both leaving the professional game? Now, I know they weren’t heartland clubs but is multiple clubs in the same area at professional level actually a good idea? 

Sheffield Eagles and Doncaster expanding their community operations into reasonably sized places like Worksop, Rotherham, Chesterfield, Goole, Gainsborough with the intention of creating junior clubs in their immediate locality would be a better plan than plonking clubs into League One and expecting players to magic up out of the ground. 

Spot on - advance the community game into these areas before any thoughts of new clubs

[newbe]

Might not be a League 1 after the restructure just expanded S/L1 n S/L2

[RL Tragic]

3 hours ago, tim2 said:

No, but Barnsley/Dearne Valley has. I'd rather just get solid amateur clubs in those areas, and in North Derbyshire and Notts. Better to go and watch them rather than a team of players shipped in from further north or a team of locals that gets battered every week.

I remember Rotherham giants being a fairly decent team in the mid 90s . Are Hoyland vikings still about ..

[Rlsouthyorks]

3 hours ago, paulwalker71 said:

There's the usual facile response, but I think the opening poster makes a fair point.

Rather than planting teams at the other end of the country, wouldn't it make more sense to look at large towns and population areas around the fringes of Rugby League?

Rotherham and Barnsley fit into that category-along with Bolton, Blackburn, Selby, Harrogate, Blackpool etc etc

As ever, it comes down to (lack of) money

I would have like to have seen a world cup game played at the New York stadium rotherham possible the Samoa v Greece game which is at Doncaster as donny have  3 world cup games . 

[Whippet13]

4 hours ago, DavidM said:

They’d be a thread here on how many fans the away team would take when they play each other 

These games would be a magnet for the fans.

[Rlsouthyorks]

3 hours ago, paulwalker71 said:

There's the usual facile response, but I think the opening poster makes a fair point.

Rather than planting teams at the other end of the country, wouldn't it make more sense to look at large towns and population areas around the fringes of Rugby League?

Rotherham and Barnsley fit into that category-along with Bolton, Blackburn, Selby, Harrogate, Blackpool etc etc

As ever, it comes down to (lack of) money

A league 2 possible 12 teams Barnsley,  rotherham, Chester,  crewe,  liverpool, birkenhead , bury , Bolton,  tameside,  stockport , Trafford,  Manchester.  

[Rlsouthyorks]

3 hours ago, paulwalker71 said:

There's the usual facile response, but I think the opening poster makes a fair point.

Rather than planting teams at the other end of the country, wouldn't it make more sense to look at large towns and population areas around the fringes of Rugby League?

Rotherham and Barnsley fit into that category-along with Bolton, Blackburn, Selby, Harrogate, Blackpool etc etc

As ever, it comes down to (lack of) money

A league 2 possible 12 teams Barnsley,  rotherham, Chester,  crewe,  liverpool, birkenhead , bury , Bolton,  tameside,  stockport , Trafford,  Manchester.  

[Tosh]

Expansion into new areas like South Yorkshire and north Lancashire doesn’t always have to mean and result in the forming of semi-professional league 1 sides.

As many have already said on this thread that the best approach would be a bottom up one with the creation of grassroots community clubs and getting the game played in some form at primary&secondary school levels before even entertaining the idea of entering semi-professional sides into league 1 unless there is a wealthy backer willing to throw money at the venture.

[Eddie]

I don’t know why people say we should have a club here or there, or such and such another place isn’t suitable. The fact is that clubs are set up by enthusiasts and volunteers, with the time and bloody mindedness to try to do it, so they’ll be wherever those people are, not in strategic places.  

[theswanmcr]

Barnsley is a one-horse football town from a pro/semi-pro perspective.
 

However it has two decent amateur set -ups at Dearne Valley and Dodworth Miners. The miners have loads of age groups and are over subscribed (which is fantastic) - it is getting coaches that is the issue.

With the Eagles back at a proper home they need to be the regional focal point for progression in the town.

[fighting irish]

14 hours ago, paulwalker71 said:

I know we're talking about expense again - but why not both?

If the RFL had a co-ordinated plan (yeah...I know) to seed community clubs in a range of South Yorkshire towns, supported by Sheffield and Doncaster - with the stated goal of a semi-pro club in Rotherham in 2025, and Barnsley in 2028.

Steady, consistent and planned progress - the very thing that we never do.

Where will the players come from?

Look how long its taken Newcastle to grow their community game.

Newcastle are making all the necessary efforts and their growth is an example to everyone else. 

There's no short cut, it's got to be done.

[Bearman]

Good idea. All you need is a team, a ground, oh and £150,000 (if you haven't got accesee to the latter you have no chance).

I 

[Eddie]

34 minutes ago, Bearman said:

Good idea. All you need is a team, a ground, oh and £150,000 (if you haven't got accesee to the latter you have no chance).

I 

£150k a year presumably too? 

[Griff]

12 hours ago, Rlsouthyorks said:

I would have like to have seen a world cup game played at the New York stadium rotherham possible the Samoa v Greece game which is at Doncaster as donny have  3 world cup games . 

Do Rotherham United want to stage a game ?

[Griff]

4 hours ago, Eddie said:

I don’t know why people say we should have a club here or there, or such and such another place isn’t suitable. The fact is that clubs are set up by enthusiasts and volunteers, with the time and bloody mindedness to try to do it, so they’ll be wherever those people are, not in strategic places.  

Not to mention that, when that enthusiast leaves, more likely than not with his money, that club immediately disappears.

[idrewthehaggis]

I see Risouthyorks' logic.

Rotherham is a town on the periphery of the "heartland" and thus would be accessible to players/officials from there.

It is also a town whose demographics are not so dissimilar to other west Yorkshire homes of RL.

Personally I do not envisage any further pro/semi pro clubs joining unless they are from France. The travel tax imposed on Toulouse probably excludes that too, I am afraid.

Therefore I have to concur though with many of here in thinking the best route for such "on the edge" locations is through the community game first. 

[Eddie]

1 hour ago, Griff said:

Do Rotherham United want to stage a game ?

Millmoor would have been a great rugby league ground, a proper dump for people to moan about. 

[mrfranco]

19 hours ago, paulwalker71 said:

There's the usual facile response, but I think the opening makes a fair point.

Rather than planting teams at the other end of the , wouldn't it make more sense to look at large towns and areas around the fringes of League?

Rotherham and Barnsley fit into that category-along with Bolton, Blackburn, Selby, Harrogate, Blackpool etc etc

As , it comes down to (lack of) money

Taking your example of Bolton - how do you tempt people to watch what would probably be a not very good team, even if it bears their town's name - when they could go and watch some of SL's biggest name clubs so close by if they wanted to, or the town's own well established football team or some of the biggest names in the Premier League also on their doorstep?

To get a significant number of people actually regularly going, I think you'd need a winning team. And that, of course, requires significant investment (and maybe some good luck). A money thing, as you say.

But it actually makes me think - are expansion pro clubs actually more likely to work somewhere a bit further from the heartlands, where people who we might be able to tempt into becoming regular-attending RL fans do not already have loyalties to big SL clubs that are on their doorsteps??  

[paulwalker71]

4 hours ago, fighting irish said:

Where will the players come from?

Look how long its taken Newcastle to grow their community game.

Newcastle are making all the necessary efforts and their growth is an example to everyone else. 

There's no short cut, it's got to be done.

This argument about the player pool always comes up

I agree that the player pool is currently too small for support any more clubs (there probably aren't enough for the ones we have) whichi s precisely why we need to expand the player pool-- which is why I said start with seeding community clubs in the area to start expanding the player pool.

I'm not picking on you specifically Irish, but it is wearing to constantly have the player pool argument brought up as if this automatically disallows any new initiatives.

It seems to me that the alternative of not expanding the player pool is to allow it to contract, which ultimately means we'll end up with about a dozen clubs playing RL, all grouped around the M62

[paulwalker71]

29 minutes ago, mrfranco said:

Taking your example of Bolton - how do you tempt people to watch what would probably be a not very good team, even if it bears their town's name - when they could go and watch some of SL's biggest name clubs so close by if they wanted to, or the town's own well established football team or some of the biggest names in the Premier League also on their doorstep?

To get a significant number of people actually regularly going, I think you'd need a winning team. And that, of course, requires significant investment (and maybe some good luck). A money thing, as you say.

But it actually makes me think - are expansion pro clubs actually more likely to work somewhere a bit further from the heartlands, where people who we might be able to tempt into becoming regular-attending RL fans do not already have loyalties to big SL clubs that are on their doorsteps??  

Well, do we know how many from Bolton watch Wigan or Leigh? I'm asking because I don't know.

Maybe going a bit further away makes sense. I doubt many people travel from Burnley to watch Super League teams?

As for the crowds, well, I'm sure there's a ton of semi-pro football teams around with crowds of 1000 people. It's not all about the big clubs with big crowds - that's just as true for rugby league as it is for football. 

[mrfranco]

34 minutes ago, paulwalker71 said:

Well, do we know how many from Bolton watch Wigan or Leigh? I'm asking because I don't know.

Maybe going a bit further away makes sense. I doubt many people travel from Burnley to watch Super League ?

As for the crowds, well, I'm sure there's a ton of semi-pro football around with crowds of 1000 people. It's not all about the big clubs with big crowds - that's just as true for league as it is for football. 

Yeah, I don't know that either. But it's definitely true to say that if you live in somewhere like Bolton and want to watch pro (or semi-pro) RL, it's very easy to do. Would a team actually based in and named for Bolton add to the numbers watching RL? I guess it would, but I don't think it would be many. Maybe it would if they were real contenders and people got swept up in the excitement of that. So that brings me back to the idea that you'd have more chance of succeeding with a new RL club somewhere a bit further away, where getting to a pro RL game is not already an easy thing to do (but then again, of course, it's harder if you go somewhere where RL is relatively unknown, whereas it is at least on the radar in a place like Bolton).

The other point you make is a good one - what is success? It's not necessarily being in SL, or being among the contenders in SL. Are West Wales a success? Hard to say yes on that one on any front - but what about Midlands Hurricanes? They're not heading to SL any time soon, but they've done some great things getting people in Coventry and surrounds playing and watching RL, so yes, I'd say they are a success. SO that leads me to two conclusions - 1. you have to define what is success for your new RL club if you set one up, and then be judged on that, whatever your aims are. 2. I think the ideal place for a new club is somewhere that is semi-virgin territory i.e. not a saturated market, but somewhere where RL is maybe on the radar.

[Eddie]

20 hours ago, paulwalker71 said:

There's the usual facile response, but I think the opening poster makes a fair point.

Rather than planting teams at the other end of the country, wouldn't it make more sense to look at large towns and population areas around the fringes of Rugby League?

Rotherham and Barnsley fit into that category-along with Bolton, Blackburn, Selby, Harrogate, Blackpool etc etc

As ever, it comes down to (lack of) money

Not just money, it’s about people who want to do it. The Anglian Vipers are in Norfolk because that’s where the people organising the club are, they’re not going to create a club in Blackburn. Same as the Devon Sharks, Swindon St George etc etc. There are already clubs in Bolton, Barnsley, Blackpool and Harrogate, but clearly for whatever reason there aren’t currently people in those places to develop them further. 

[fighting irish]

34 minutes ago, paulwalker71 said:

This argument about the player pool always comes up

I agree that the player pool is currently too small for support any more clubs (there probably aren't enough for the ones we have) whichi s precisely why we need to expand the player pool-- which is why I said start with seeding community clubs in the area to start expanding the player pool.

I'm not picking on you specifically Irish, but it is wearing to constantly have the player pool argument brought up as if this automatically disallows any new initiatives.

It seems to me that the alternative of not expanding the player pool is to allow it to contract, which ultimately means we'll end up with about a dozen clubs playing RL, all grouped around the M62

I'm not entirely sure, but I think we are agreeing with each other here.

My point of view is that every area in the country (and the world) no matter whether there is a pro club nearby, or whether supported by the RFL or not, should be engaged in development work.

The reality is, hardly any are.

It's just not good enough (in my opinion) to say ''we need the RFL to do it for us'', or ''give us the money we need to do it''. What I'm inclined to ask, in response is, how are they doing it in Jamaica, or in the USA, or Serbia or Greece? What about Nigeria and the Gambia?

The answer is, it's done by amateurs, lovers of the game, who move heaven and earth, just to be involved. Don't forget they may be amateurs at playing RL but it doesn't mean they are amateurs at life, or business, or have poor organisational abilities. The world is full of capable people unwilling to wait for permission, or help, or money. If they are sufficiently motivated nothing can stop them.

In this country, in our game sadly, we have the entirely opposite attitude. We are incompetent, or feel an unearned sense of entitlement or are just content to live ''off the fat of the land''. Someone else has to do it for us and this is why I believe our progress is pitifully slow.

Newcastle have proved what can be done, with largely amateur enthusiasts. They have produced a template, which works, so anyone with enough enthusiasm, doesn't need to re-invent the wheel, just replicate what they have done and are doing up there.

To me, this is the natural domain of BARLA or the Welsh RL at home.

BARLA and the local area committees, seem to be a spent force, involved in nothing more than creating fixture lists for the local leagues. Wow! big deal. Lazy, lazy lazy.

Development should be high on the agenda at every local league meeting.

Any business activity can be divided into two broad categories, Maintenance (of the existing structure) and Forward Movement (where do we want to go and how are we going to get there?). The second part is almost entirely absent from our amateur game.

If this activity is missing, then what remains is tantamount to managed decline.  

[Eddie]

7 hours ago, theswanmcr said:

Barnsley is a one-horse football town from a pro/semi-pro perspective.
 

However it has two decent amateur set -ups at Dearne Valley and Dodworth Miners. The miners have loads of age groups and are over subscribed (which is fantastic) - it is getting coaches that is the issue.

With the Eagles back at a proper home they need to be the regional focal point for progression in the town.

While Barnsley is in South Yorkshire, tbf the Eagles are an impoverished semi pro side while Wakey and Hudds are both pro and are similar distances away, either of them are just as likely as Sheffield to be the regional focal point for progression of RL in Barnsley.