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34 minutes ago, paulwalker71 said:

This argument about the player pool always comes up

I agree that the player pool is currently too small for support any more clubs (there probably aren't enough for the ones we have) whichi s precisely why we need to expand the player pool-- which is why I said start with seeding community clubs in the area to start expanding the player pool.

I'm not picking on you specifically Irish, but it is wearing to constantly have the player pool argument brought up as if this automatically disallows any new initiatives.

It seems to me that the alternative of not expanding the player pool is to allow it to contract, which ultimately means we'll end up with about a dozen clubs playing RL, all grouped around the M62

I'm not entirely sure, but I think we are agreeing with each other here.

My point of view is that every area in the country (and the world) no matter whether there is a pro club nearby, or whether supported by the RFL or not, should be engaged in development work.

The reality is, hardly any are.

It's just not good enough (in my opinion) to say ''we need the RFL to do it for us'', or ''give us the money we need to do it''. What I'm inclined to ask, in response is, how are they doing it in Jamaica, or in the USA, or Serbia or Greece? What about Nigeria and the Gambia?

The answer is, it's done by amateurs, lovers of the game, who move heaven and earth, just to be involved. Don't forget they may be amateurs at playing RL but it doesn't mean they are amateurs at life, or business, or have poor organisational abilities. The world is full of capable people unwilling to wait for permission, or help, or money. If they are sufficiently motivated nothing can stop them.

In this country, in our game sadly, we have the entirely opposite attitude. We are incompetent, or feel an unearned sense of entitlement or are just content to live ''off the fat of the land''. Someone else has to do it for us and this is why I believe our progress is pitifully slow.

Newcastle have proved what can be done, with largely amateur enthusiasts. They have produced a template, which works, so anyone with enough enthusiasm, doesn't need to re-invent the wheel, just replicate what they have done and are doing up there.

To me, this is the natural domain of BARLA or the Welsh RL at home.

BARLA and the local area committees, seem to be a spent force, involved in nothing more than creating fixture lists for the local leagues. Wow! big deal. Lazy, lazy lazy.

Development should be high on the agenda at every local league meeting.

Any business activity can be divided into two broad categories, Maintenance (of the existing structure) and Forward Movement (where do we want to go and how are we going to get there?). The second part is almost entirely absent from our amateur game.

If this activity is missing, then what remains is tantamount to managed decline.  

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7 hours ago, theswanmcr said:

Barnsley is a one-horse football town from a pro/semi-pro perspective.
 

However it has two decent amateur set -ups at Dearne Valley and Dodworth Miners. The miners have loads of age groups and are over subscribed (which is fantastic) - it is getting coaches that is the issue.

With the Eagles back at a proper home they need to be the regional focal point for progression in the town.

While Barnsley is in South Yorkshire, tbf the Eagles are an impoverished semi pro side while Wakey and Hudds are both pro and are similar distances away, either of them are just as likely as Sheffield to be the regional focal point for progression of RL in Barnsley. 

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I still think it’s a crying shame that the likes of carlisle border raiders, Preston(Lancashire lynx) and Trafford borough etc aren’t still around. 
 

Although all 3 clubs were located on the periphery of the “heartlands” they were still expansion sides with lots of potential both in terms of tapping into a new fan and player markets.

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10 hours ago, Eddie said:

I don’t know why people say we should have a club here or there, or such and such another place isn’t suitable. The fact is that clubs are set up by enthusiasts and volunteers, with the time and bloody mindedness to try to do it, so they’ll be wherever those people are, not in strategic places.  

That's why I think schools and colleges should be the focal point for developing the junior game. Any new community clubs need a pitch, a clubhouse or at least changing rooms, coaches, officials playing kit, equipment and promotion to help recruit players.

For a lot less time and money RL clubs and the RFL could increase the amount of schools and colleges that play RL and create regular fixtures and leagues for them to play in. The kids are already there so would be easier to persuade to play and wouldn't clash with weekend football fixtures, they already have the facilities and equipment and rather than the lots of volunteers it takes to set up and run a community club the RFL would only need to support and assist ( if needed) 1 or 2 PE teachers at each school.

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23 hours ago, tim2 said:

No, but Barnsley/Dearne Valley has. I'd rather just get solid amateur clubs in those areas, and in North Derbyshire and Notts. Better to go and watch them rather than a team of players shipped in from further north or a team of locals that gets battered every week.

There is a solid club in Derby, previously Derby City, now the Derby Elks. 

They have been playing continuously for decades, since the old EMARLA days, first year of the RL conference and now in the Yorkshire League 

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3 hours ago, John Rhino said:

There is a solid club in Derby, previously Derby City, now the Derby Elks. 

They have been playing continuously for decades, since the old EMARLA days, first year of the RL conference and now in the Yorkshire League 

I know that. I'm just saying that it's not sensible to aim for anything more in the current climate.

"I am the avenging angel; I come with wings unfurled, I come with claws extended from halfway round the world. I am the God Almighty, I am the howling wind. I care not for your family; I care not for your kin. I come in search of terror, though terror is my own; I come in search of vengeance for crimes and crimes unknown. I care not for your children, I care not for your wives, I care not for your country, I care not for your lives." - (c) Jim Boyes - "The Avenging Angel"

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23 hours ago, RL Tragic said:

I remember Rotherham giants being a fairly decent team in the mid 90s . Are Hoyland vikings still about ..

Sadly I don't think so. A shame as I had a few friends at Hoyland.

"I am the avenging angel; I come with wings unfurled, I come with claws extended from halfway round the world. I am the God Almighty, I am the howling wind. I care not for your family; I care not for your kin. I come in search of terror, though terror is my own; I come in search of vengeance for crimes and crimes unknown. I care not for your children, I care not for your wives, I care not for your country, I care not for your lives." - (c) Jim Boyes - "The Avenging Angel"

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4 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Or any climate since 1895. 

The game has expanded since then. Featherstone joined the Northen Union in 1898.

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"I am the avenging angel; I come with wings unfurled, I come with claws extended from halfway round the world. I am the God Almighty, I am the howling wind. I care not for your family; I care not for your kin. I come in search of terror, though terror is my own; I come in search of vengeance for crimes and crimes unknown. I care not for your children, I care not for your wives, I care not for your country, I care not for your lives." - (c) Jim Boyes - "The Avenging Angel"

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8 hours ago, Tosh said:

I still think it’s a crying shame that the likes of carlisle border raiders, Preston(Lancashire lynx) and Trafford borough etc aren’t still around. 
 

Although all 3 clubs were located on the periphery of the “heartlands” they were still expansion sides with lots of potential both in terms of tapping into a new fan and player markets.

Maybe that's what knocks the idea of "periphery expansion" on the head. Club not doing very well on the field, fans travel a few extra miles to go to a more successful club, expansion club goes bust.

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Let's get real, bottom-up development is a fantasy.

The developments in Newcastle referenced by @fighting irishstand out among a litany of bottom-up failures and among those Newcastle is the one case where the award of a franchise in the game's top pro tier stimulated the interest which led to all those developments.

Thus, as we North Americans understand well, top-down is the only way it can work.

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3 hours ago, Big Picture said:

Let's get real, bottom-up development is a fantasy.

The developments in Newcastle referenced by @fighting irishstand out among a litany of bottom-up failures and among those Newcastle is the one case where the award of a franchise in the game's top pro tier stimulated the interest which led to all those developments.

Thus, as we North Americans understand well, top-down is the only way it can work.

Is Newcastle’s community work really a failure? They’ve established a significant number of community clubs around their region, I would suspect more than any other club in RL history in any country. If that’s failure everyone might as well give up. 

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6 hours ago, Griff said:

Maybe that's what knocks the idea of "periphery expansion" on the head. Club not doing very well on the field, fans travel a few extra miles to go to a more successful club, expansion club goes bust.

Carlisle's ground (both what it was and its location) was a real problem.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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2 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Did they play at Brunton Park? 

Until 1988 and then Gillford Park (https://carlislecityfc.co.uk/gillford-park/ - that stand behind the goal wasn't there, so take away that and you've got what the ground was like).

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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6 hours ago, Eddie said:

Is Newcastle’s community work really a failure? They’ve established a significant number of community clubs around their region, I would suspect more than any other club in RL history in any country. If that’s failure everyone might as well give up. 

I think you missed my point.  Unless I'm mistaken that community work was kick-started by the area having an SL club, which in turn followed the League taking big matches like the Charity Shield and Internationals to the area.  It wouldn't have been nearly as extensive or successful if those things hadn't preceded it.

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19 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

I think you missed my point.  Unless I'm mistaken that community work was kick-started by the area having an SL club, which in turn followed the League taking big matches like the Charity Shield and Internationals to the area.  It wouldn't have been nearly as extensive or successful if those things hadn't preceded it.

Not sure that’s right, it’s the current Newcastle Thunder who are doing it, you’re using a tenuous link if you don’t mind me saying so. 

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4 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Not sure that’s right, it’s the current Newcastle Thunder who are doing it, you’re using a tenuous link if you don’t mind me saying so. 

And where did the current Thunder come from?  The ashes of the original Gateshead SL club, that's where.  It all started from that SL club, that's what inspired the interest to develop the game there.

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4 hours ago, Big Picture said:

And where did the current Thunder come from?  The ashes of the original Gateshead SL club, that's where.  It all started from that SL club, that's what inspired the interest to develop the game there.

It was the current Thunder ownership, who unless I’m mistaken had nowt to do with Gateshead. If Gateshead had never happened Newcastle Thunder’s community programme could have happened. 

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59 minutes ago, Eddie said:

It was the current Thunder ownership, who unless I’m mistaken had nowt to do with Gateshead. If Gateshead had never happened Newcastle Thunder’s community programme could have happened. 

Yet again you missed the point.  The current Thunder would never have existed if there hadn't been a desire to keep a pro club going locally after the original Thunder were sacrificed to save Hull, so the original Thunder's creation spurred all of the subsequent developments on Tyneside.  That's top-down development, not bottom-up development.

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16 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

Yet again you missed the point.  The current Thunder would never have existed if there hadn't been a desire to keep a pro club going locally after the original Thunder were sacrificed to save Hull, so the original Thunder's creation spurred all of the subsequent developments on Tyneside.  That's top-down development, not bottom-up development.

They might have existed, someone could have started a RL club in Newcastle regardless, like clubs have been founded elsewhere without a shambles of a club having existed before them. 

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44 minutes ago, Eddie said:

They might have existed, someone could have started a RL club in Newcastle regardless, like clubs have been founded elsewhere without a shambles of a club having existed before them. 

Might have, might not. But BP's analysis is nearer the truth imho.

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31 minutes ago, Griff said:

Might have, might not. But BP's analysis is nearer the truth imho.

We’re all guessing. Plenty of professional RL clubs have fallen by the wayside without leaving a legacy of a succession club with outstanding community programme, in fact every club that’s gone under except Newcastle is in that boat, so from that point of view it’s not reasonable to say the current superb set up is due to the old club. 

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27 minutes ago, Eddie said:

We’re all guessing. Plenty of professional RL clubs have fallen by the wayside without leaving a legacy of a succession club with outstanding community programme, in fact every club that’s gone under except Newcastle is in that boat, so from that point of view it’s not reasonable to say the current superb set up is due to the old club. 

But that's pretty much BP's argument. The legacy is from the 1999 Gateshead club.

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