England Squad

[Harry Stottle]

4 hours ago, DavidM said:

No

Well you implied it, unless you consider the player in question deserves to be picked on present form.

[Mojo]

10 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

I have no hatred of SL player's, but I have a couple of eyes and I think you are being over optimistic how highly you are rating some of our player's on their recent levels of performance.

I'm glad one English fan isn't over rating the quality of the English players in the SL and actually being realistic

[SydneyRoosters]

1 hour ago, Mojo said:

I'm glad one English fan isn't over rating the quality of the English players in the SL and actually being realistic

Says someone who’s never watched a game of English rugby league in their life, idiot.

[Mojo]

21 minutes ago, SydneyRoosters said:

Says someone who’s never watched a game of English rugby league in their life, idiot.

Someone who actually does watch SL  just said the same thing as me "you idiot" take a chill pill

[EagleEyePie]

I'd say Bateman is playing well enough to get selected for England. He's one of the most important players at Wigan. Most of the frustration is that he can perform at a higher level than what he's been doing most of the year and be more consistent but he's still performing well.

Also, any coach is going to pick players who have played well at international level before. You don't pick purely on form, despite that often being what coaches say and what fans want. You'd be making so many changes to the team year after year, you'd be constantly having to weed out the players who have had a good year but aren't at the right level and those players who tend to play well at international level even if their club form has been indifferent.

Harry Smith has been in good form this year, but if you could only select Smith or George Williams you'd pick Williams. Liam Farrell (before injury) was the best back row forward out of our Super League based options but if you could only select him or Bateman for England you'd pick Bateman.

If an established player is playing poorly then that makes the decision harder, but Bateman isn't playing poorly, so you'd expect his selection to be a fairly easy choice.

Where selection might be more difficult is where there's no established player available or playing at a reasonable level. Hooker being the obvious example. Without Roby I'd argue there's no obvious first choice. Clark has had some good games at international level but he's looked poor whenever I've seen him play this year and he missed out on the England side mid-season. McShane looked poor when given his chance for England and hasn't seemed that good for Cas. McIlorum will probably be the first name on Wane's team sheet. He has a lot of aggression but I feel our opponents might go for talent in such a pivotal position instead. Some of the more in-form players don't have the experience, such as Andy Ackers (unlucky to miss out of the Dream Team), so that's where there's more of a selection dilemma.

[Moe syszlak]

16 hours ago, Mr Frisky said:

Widdop has retired from England- i would always take Ratchford though as he can play anywhere - great squad player.

Ratchford should be nowhere near a Warrington shirt, let alone an international one. Up there with the most overrated players I've seen play the game.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, EagleEyePie said:

Also, any coach is going to pick players who have played well at international level before. You don't pick purely on form, despite that often being what coaches say and what fans want. You'd be making so many changes to the team year after year, you'd be constantly having to weed out the players who have had a good year but aren't at the right level and those players who tend to play well at international level even if their club form has been indifferent.

Well that's great logic EEP, the trouble is selecting those "who possibly can" hasn't produced the right results for England/GB over the years against the No1 foe in Green and Gold.

Edited September 11, 2022 by Harry Stottle

[Davo5]

3 hours ago, Mojo said:

Someone who actually does watch SL  just said the same thing as me "you idiot" take a chill pill

You really are a sad little troll 

[Dunbar]

5 hours ago, Mojo said:

I'm glad one English fan isn't over rating the quality of the English players in the SL and actually being realistic

Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries.

I don't know if that's true but I heard someone say it once.

[Mr Frisky]

3 hours ago, Mojo said:

Someone who actually does watch SL  just said the same thing as me "you idiot" take a chill pill

Nearly at the 100 posts and your holy grail mate - well done.

[EagleEyePie]

11 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Well that's great logic EEP, the trouble is selecting those "who possibly can" hasn't produced the right results for England/GB over the years against the No1 foe in Green and Gold.

I wouldn't say picking form players always produces the right results for England/GB over the years either. There are always form players that get selected who then don't play well, just as there are out of form players that end up playing well. It's about finding the right balance.

[Davo5]

27 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Well that's great logic EEP, the trouble is selecting those "who possibly can" hasn't produced the right results for England/GB over the years against the No1 foe in Green and Gold.

We haven’t beaten Australia in years because we’ve never had enough players of sufficient quality available at any one time,form has nothing to do with it.

[Dunbar]

England have only played Australia 5 times in the last 10 years.

Pretty much an entire generation of players have played out their careers without really being able to test themselves at international level against the best in the world.  It is a travesty. 

[Harry Stottle]

1 minute ago, EagleEyePie said:

I wouldn't say picking form players always produces the right results for England/GB over the years either. There are always form players that get selected who then don't play well, just as there are out of form players that end up playing well. It's about finding the right balance.

Funny how you tip your discussion to those 'form' selections not playing well and "out of form" player's performing well, any selection is about finding the right balance the truth is we don't know how that will be until the game is over. As I said I can only relate to having watched our international team for a very long time and we ain't got it right when it matters, I am all for putting expierence out there on the park if they are on par with the other candidates, but not if there are player's performing better than them, one last question how do we know how good/bad a player will perform if they are not given the opportunity to do so, everyone has to start somewhere, and considering there are far two few opportunities of international games these days, we need to throw some of those hopefuls in at the deep end. 

But I do agree with you Mr Wane will look to those he knows, albeit I disagree completely.

[Harry Stottle]

15 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

We haven’t beaten Australia in years because we’ve never had enough players of sufficient quality available at any one time,form has nothing to do with it.

Without doubt, I would say our best and most unexpected win was with a team thrown together because of injuries, made up mostly of those who would not have got into the test team if 'first choice' had been available 3rd Test Sydney 1998 so you see Dav give player's the opportunity and they may just come up with the goods.

[Harry Stottle]

16 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

England have only played Australia 5 times in the last 10 years.

Pretty much an entire generation of players have played out their careers without really being able to test themselves at international level against the best in the world.  It is a travesty. 

Yes but prior to that we still had multiple game series as a poor substitute for the proper test series, kno led on the head by the move to summer Rugby.

[SalfordSlim]

Agree with you there Harry. But you know what would happen if Wane chose form players over established players and England underperformed. Those clamouring for the likes of Williams, Clark, Mcllorum etc to be included (that haven't been playing well) will trot out the old "we'd have done much better with Williams/Clark/Mcllorum and Mikey Lewis/Andy Ackers were too inexperienced blah blah blah."

[SydneyRoosters]

1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

England have only played Australia 5 times in the last 10 years.

Pretty much an entire generation of players have played out their careers without really being able to test themselves at international level against the best in the world.  It is a travesty. 

Limited International rugby league is The main thing holding the sport back, The fact that Nathan Cleary has never played Australia and that is Tedesco has only played 4 games for them is stupid. All International teams should aim to at least play 5 tests a year.

[Davo5]

56 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Without doubt, I would say our best and most unexpected win was with a team thrown together because of injuries, made up mostly of those who would not have got into the test team if 'first choice' had been available 3rd Test Sydney 1998 so you see Dav give player's the opportunity and they may just come up with the goods.

If your referring to the 88 tour,those players were picked because we had no one left,not because they were in form so it doesn’t really back up your theory 

[Harry Stottle]

43 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

If your referring to the 88 tour,those players were picked because we had no one left,not because they were in form so it doesn’t really back up your theory 

Didn't I say that?

But it is very relevant to this discussion Dav about selection, those players who played in that 3rd test would not have had the opportunity to do so if all the squad had been fit, I will say without fear of contradiction we would have gone with the tried and tested BUT NECESSARILY NOT THE BEST players on the tour and in all probability lost - but that is pure speculation - just as it will be that players who are underperforming compared to others can raise their game to much higher levels.

Edited September 11, 2022 by Harry Stottle

[Dunbar]

I like the way Radley plays but his discipline was awful today.

He deserved his first sin bin as he threw a punch... a terrible punch but a punch all the same (at least let a decent one go if you are going to be punished).

And he deserved his second card for rushing in after an innocuous hand on face from a Rabbitoh player.

Neither of these were Radley on the edge looking for big hits.... they were just daft actions. He needs to sort it out.

[EagleEyePie]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Funny how you tip your discussion to those 'form' selections not playing well and "out of form" player's performing well, any selection is about finding the right balance the truth is we don't know how that will be until the game is over. As I said I can only relate to having watched our international team for a very long time and we ain't got it right when it matters, I am all for putting expierence out there on the park if they are on par with the other candidates, but not if there are player's performing better than them, one last question how do we know how good/bad a player will perform if they are not given the opportunity to do so, everyone has to start somewhere, and considering there are far two few opportunities of international games these days, we need to throw some of those hopefuls in at the deep end. 

But I do agree with you Mr Wane will look to those he knows, albeit I disagree completely.

Then we both accept that it's about finding the right balance. Of course I'm going to tip the discussion to those form selections not playing well and out of form players performing, that's the whole point that I'm making, that it's never been as simple as just 'form' and that club form doesn't always translate to good performances at international level. My argument certainly isn't that form shouldn't have any bearing, just that any international coach is going to want players who have already proven themselves at that level in the squad and that's all part of finding the balance. 

You're right that the only way to find out if players are good enough is to select them and that we need to throw some players in there who don't have experience. It's not like you can rule players out of selection for having never played at that level before as the talent pool would dwindle to 0. We've got to get the right players in the team. All I'm saying is it doesn't necessarily mean it's purely about 'form', especially since form is subjective. Form isn't the same as talent after all and relatively average players can be in good form.

[bobbruce]

29 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I like the way Radley plays but his discipline was awful today.

He deserved his first sin bin as he threw a punch... a terrible punch but a punch all the same (at least let a decent one go if you are going to be punished).

And he deserved his second card for rushing in after an innocuous hand on face from a Rabbitoh player.

Neither of these were Radley on the edge looking for big hits.... they were just daft actions. He needs to sort it out.

To be honest after watching that today I wouldn’t bother with him. We have our own idiots to pick from if that’s what we want. If he can’t cope with that game what’s he going to be like facing up to the Aussies/NZ/Samoa/Tonga and others and the sledging he’ll get. 

[SydneyRoosters]

5 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

To be honest after watching that today I wouldn’t bother with him. We have our own idiots to pick from if that’s what we want. If he can’t cope with that game what’s he going to be like facing up to the Aussies/NZ/Samoa/Tonga and others and the sledging he’ll get. 

you can’t blame him south’s entire game plan was to decapitate any player wearing red, white and blue and milk every penalty.

[bobbruce]

Just now, SydneyRoosters said:

you can’t blame him south’s entire game plan was to decapitate any player wearing red, white and blue and milk every penalty.

Both teams were as bad as each other.