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4 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Leigh for example cannot use their owners wealth to recruit a squad to comfortably stay up next year, beyond the cap which inherently advantages those already in. It is particularly bad for newly promoted teams.

Dr Koukash was also quite clear in his frustrations with the limitations of the systems in his time at Salford.

Its interesting imo, that the top 6 or so clubs are usually owned by the most wealthy individuals whilst the smaller clubs (salford, KR, Wakey, Cas) seem to be owned by less wealthy individuals, or in Salford's case now no individuals at all as I understand it. 

I'm not sure of the point you are making,  this discussion is about whether the cap stops rich people investing in RL.  Imho that is a huge red herring. 

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Why would anyone with deep pockets want to invest in what is nowadays a backwater sport, played in a narrow strip of northern England? You can draw a box from Hull to Warrington, a hundred miles, and then twenty miles up and you'd have covered every SL club in the UK. I'm guessing it has a very limited appeal.

What would an investor get in return? Methinks they'd be seeking more than puff pieces in the Billinge Bugle and Kippax Kronicle.

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2 minutes ago, Number 16 said:

Why would anyone with deep pockets want to invest in what is nowadays a backwater sport, played in a narrow strip of northern England? You can draw a box from Hull to Warrington, a hundred miles, and then twenty miles up and you'd have covered every SL club in the UK. I'm guessing it has a very limited appeal.

What would an investor get in return? Methinks they'd be seeking more than puff pieces in the Billinge Bugle and Kippax Kronicle.

Such derogatory terms for RL shouldn't be accepted on an RL board.  Anyone who describes RL like that is not an RL fan. There are other forms of entertainment you should go and watch. 

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26 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Gary Hetherington at Leeds maybe? Certainly Paul Caddick too. Mr Koukash at Salford originally. I believe Andy Mazey at Rochdale doesn't have a major past connection, not sure about his time at Swinton.

I do know what you mean H, but that is neither a particularly sustainable/reliable source of income, nor is it a sign of the top tier of the game reaching the level it needs to. Its good for sport to have these links, particularly at smaller clubs and those in the lower divisions as happens in Football and Rugby Union, but it cannot and should not rely on it at the top. Top clubs should be attractive to a broader range of people, and hopefully the number of top clubs increases with that.

Yes of course Dr Koukash, I thought Paul Caddick was a local Leeds lad, and didn't Mr Hetherington progress from being an employee of the club?. As for Andy Mazey he is a Leigh lad who I know quite well, was once a director at Leigh along with his dad then they didn't see eye to eye with Mr Beaumont and left.

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8 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Such derogatory terms for RL shouldn't be accepted on an RL board.  Anyone who describes RL like that is not an RL fan. There are other forms of entertainment you should go and watch. 

Aah. You believe in cancelling those with opinions you disagree with. Very 2022...

Where are the investors who can take RL to the next level?

Where are the SL clubs outside that box?

 

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Just now, Number 16 said:

Aah. You believe in cancelling those with opinions you disagree with. Very 2022...

Where are the investors who can take RL to the next level?

Where are the SL clubs outside that box?

 

I believe on an RL forum that is strictly moderated and has rules in place it is perfectly reasonable to challenge people's posts.

If you want to call that cancelling,  great, but there are loads of things you can't say on this board. 

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10 hours ago, JohnM said:

2. Failsworth at that time was, IIRC, considered the last outpost of Manchester rather than the gateway to Oldham.

It was the last outpost of Oldham before heading down to Manchester. Failsworth was absolutely part of Oldham!

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15 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes of course Dr Koukash, I thought Paul Caddick was a local Leeds lad, and didn't Mr Hetherington progress from being an employee of the club?. As for Andy Mazey he is a Leigh lad who I know quite well, was once a director at Leigh along with his dad then they didn't see eye to eye with Mr Beaumont and left.

I always read that Caddick was from out Castleford way but was largely persuaded into the Rhinos to save Headingley, and the RU team potential. Hetherington bought in with Caddick I thought?

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35 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'm not sure of the point you are making,  this discussion is about whether the cap stops rich people investing in RL.  Imho that is a huge red herring. 

I think it stops some rich people investing in parts of RL that could do with it. Not the sole reason of course, but certainly something that affects the attractiveness.

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Owners within rugby league are, in many cases, locals who’ve done good and made money. We don’t offer the ability to build a brand in the same way football clubs can offer that, we don’t offer the positive PR, global growth of a business or brand or geopolitical reasons that is seen elsewhere. Our owners are fans of the sport and have the acquired wealth to invest into the clubs of their choice. 

IMG have to work towards seeking new investment through sponsorship and others actually investing in clubs. 

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3 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I think it stops some rich people investing in parts of RL that could do with it. Not the sole reason of course, but certainly something that affects the attractiveness.

I'd have to see some evidence before I believed that to be any kind of material impact tbh. 

Because other sports that are held up as role models for RL also have salary caps,  which is conveniently ignored. 

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Rugby League does have wealthy people investing in our sport.  By the standards of the man on the street, the owners/chairmen of several Rugby League clubs are very wealthy. 

But these things are relative.  I just don't think anyone worth £28 billion is going to think of Rugby League as their plaything when they can have F1, Football, America's Cup and all that goes with that.  We don't park our yachts at Wigan Peer to watch the Wigan Saints derby.

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"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

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4 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Rugby League does have wealthy people investing in our sport.  By the standards of the man on the street, the owners/chairmen of several Rugby League clubs are very wealthy. 

But these things are relative.  I just don't think anyone worth £28 billion is going to think of Rugby League as their plaything when they can have F1, Football, America's Cup and all that goes with that.  We don't park our yachts at Wigan Peer to watch the Wigan Saints derby.

Yup. And I don't think we need to stress about the fact we may not get billionaires,  the sport doesn't work in hundreds of millions of quid,  it's not an issue. 

We just need more people overall who want to invest in RL,  at whatever level. 

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20 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I always read that Caddick was from out Castleford way but was largely persuaded into the Rhinos to save Headingley, and the RU team potential. Hetherington bought in with Caddick I thought?

I know when I was in Leeds there was always a strong feeling that Caddick's main interest was RU and developing Leeds Tykes. No doubt that changed over time and as we all know the RU team flopped. There was certainly a strong feeling from Rhinos fans that they were being used and that Leeds Rhinos and Headingley were more as a facilitator for the RU team. At that time Leeds Tykes got an extraordinary amount of funding and a leg up. Several people I knew played for the Leeds Tykes academy at this time and were very well paid too.

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6 minutes ago, Damien said:

I know when I was in Leeds there was always a strong feeling that Caddick's main interest was RU and developing Leeds Tykes. No doubt that changed over time and as we all know the RU team flopped. There was certainly a strong feeling from Rhinos fans that they were being used and that Leeds Rhinos and Headingley were more as a facilitator for the RU team. At that time Leeds Tykes got an extraordinary amount of funding and a leg up. Several people I knew played for the Leeds Tykes academy at this time and were very well paid too.

Now playing in the third tier in front of about 50 people at a semi-rural ground. Amazing how far they've fallen.

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37 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'd have to see some evidence before I believed that to be any kind of material impact tbh. 

Because other sports that are held up as role models for RL also have salary caps,  which is conveniently ignored. 

I'm not saying the cap is the problem specifically, but that the systems around it, and indeed the low level of the cap, is an issue.

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3 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I'm not saying the cap is the problem specifically, but that the systems around it, and indeed the low level of the cap, is an issue.

Yeah,  I just don't see it,  but that's cool. 

I think we need to look at the reasons why people invest their own money in sports clubs if we are hoping to address any kind of problem. 

I think investing in clubs is a labour of love and RL doesn't come with some of the sexiness that can make it worthwhile. 

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26 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Yup. And I don't think we need to stress about the fact we may not get billionaires,  the sport doesn't work in hundreds of millions of quid,  it's not an issue. 

We just need more people overall who want to invest in RL,  at whatever level. 

You second paragraph is correct of course Dave, and I'll never look a gift horse in the mouth.

But I don't think we can reject the first point so simply. 

Football and union have upscaled the type of rich people involved in their sports and this has helped drive those sports higher, and then in turn attracted even richer people... a virtuous circle perhaps. 

In the northern Hemisphere RL it feels we're stuck at the level we're at, and indeed the current owners would be happy with that. 

I feel that the salary cap does limit northern RL from breaking out of its existing areas, in that if you want at successful team in London, just about anywhere else in France, and beyond, you're going to need a lot  more than 2 mln a year to put a team together, probably as you'll be going to the NRL for quality. 

But it's not the biggest issue. 

As I said above, I don't see how we break out of our current areas without selling a vision to the Jim Ratcliffe's of this world - a strata of richness way above most of our current owners - that they can build something impressively high profile to enjoy being part of in the way the mega rich enjoy owning football clubs. 

Alternatively, maybe it's ok to be roughly where we're at, with a sport the size and reach it is, and owners fit for that size of business. Maybe that's sustainable with incremental investment. 

I'm on the fence though, as I fear there's major risks in falling too far behind in profile to rival sports. 

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2 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

You second paragraph is correct of course Dave, and I'll never look a gift horse in the mouth.

But I don't think we can reject the first point so simply. 

Football and union have upscaled the type of rich people involved in their sports and this has helped drive those sports higher, and then in turn attracted even richer people... a virtuous circle perhaps. 

In the northern Hemisphere it feels we're stuck at the level we're at, and indeed the current owners would be happy with that. 

I feel that the salary cap does limit the northern RL from breaking out of its existing areas, in that if you want at successful team in London, just about anywhere else in France, and beyond, you're going to need a lot  more than 2 mln a year to put a team together, probably as you'll be going to the NRL for quality. 

But it's not the biggest issue. 

As I said above , I don't see how we break out of our current areas without selling a vision to the Jim Ratcliffe's of this world - a strata of richness way above most of our current owners - that they can build something impressively high profile to enjoy being part of in the way the mega rich enjoy owning football clubs. 

Alternatively, maybe it's ok to be roughly where we're at, with a sport the size and reach it is, and owners fit for that size of business. Maybe that's sustainable with incremental investment. 

I'm on the fence though, as I fear there's major risks in falling too far behind in profile to rival sports. 

My point wasn't about sticking with where we are at,  and in fact we have a good number of very rich people -  but some of our backers have been far better for the game than some in other sports. 

We saw when Branson was involved,  he pulled dout because it was a money pit,  not because he wanted to spend more on making London competitive. 

Koukash always said he wanted to spend more,  but was useless really,  and he had plenty of chance to invest in infrastructure to improve Salford.  In fact they are far better now than they ever were under him. 

Argyl wanted to spend more on players,  but didn't even pay the basic bills and the ran out of cash. 

None of that,  plus a quick glance at the state of the finances in RU suggests that loosening the cap is going to end in anything other than disaster for the game. 

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1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes of course Dr Koukash, I thought Paul Caddick was a local Leeds lad, and didn't Mr Hetherington progress from being an employee of the club?. As for Andy Mazey he is a Leigh lad who I know quite well, was once a director at Leigh along with his dad then they didn't see eye to eye with Mr Beaumont and left.

I'm guessing you know but just in case Gary H played for the club plus many others which included one game for Wigan. All be it he invested with Caddick subsequently. Gary has a long history with RL in the area.

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2 hours ago, Dave T said:

Such derogatory terms for RL shouldn't be accepted on an RL board.  Anyone who describes RL like that is not an RL fan. There are other forms of entertainment you should go and watch. 

you make the little joke yes?

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23 hours ago, Eddie said:

I can’t imagine people like him would be interested in a sport with no international calendar, a small regional geographic footprint and a miserably low salary cap. 

Look at the way we swapped Toronto for a Wigan Suburb.  Look how certain people in the game in this country want to keep it a M62 corridor game. Look at the comments in the past about London saying they have had e amount of years to get in right, yet ignore the low crowds and lack of Junior development at places like Salford, and how long have Salford been playing our game? How long have the likes of Oldham, Rochdale and Swinton for example been playing our game and where are they playing there games nowadays on their own grounds?

Look at the Castleford and Wakefield grounds. Admittedly Wakey are doing something about there ground after years of neglect. Would you have taken a billionaire and potential game sponsor to grounds like theirs?

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1 hour ago, Jughead said:

Owners within rugby league are, in many cases, locals who’ve done good and made money. We don’t offer the ability to build a brand in the same way football clubs can offer that, we don’t offer the positive PR, global growth of a business or brand or geopolitical reasons that is seen elsewhere. Our owners are fans of the sport and have the acquired wealth to invest into the clubs of their choice. 

IMG have to work towards seeking new investment through sponsorship and others actually investing in clubs. 

In my opinion ground criteria and junior development should be PART of Super League membership. I'm not saying bring back licensing, but there has to a minimum standard

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Very wealthy people investing their own money in sport only do it for one of two reasons. 

Number one is to become part of the elite.  This is the case in F1 and America's Cup racing which is essentially the domain of the wealthy class and if you want to be in that club you spend big money.  Rugby League ain't going to be there.

Number two is to buy a team/franchise in a sport, invest in the team, win trophies and bask in the glory.  Plenty of Football and Rugby Union owners have attempted the latter.

What number two always leads to is massive inflation in player wages which spirals beyond the levels sustainable by the club/sport to stand alone.  This means the wealthy investors are not a luxury but a necessity for continued survival. 

I really don't want us in the second camp.

I have been as critical as anyone of Derek Beaumont and the way he conducts business publically as anyone but a local man, who has done well, and is prepared to invest sensible amounts of his fortune into a club is perfect.

Very wealthy people bringing rampant inflation to the sport and then leaving is not a model for success.

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"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

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2 hours ago, Dave T said:

I'm not sure of the point you are making, this discussion is about whether the cap stops rich people investing in RL.  Imho that is a huge red herring. 

Anyone who cannot see the negative impact of the cap in RL is in denial. 

Entry to top level UK RL is peanuts to the seriously wealthy so why cant we attract them? Many RL 'Fans' need a long look in the mirror before they answer that because we pride ourselves in driving wealth out of the sport primarily driven by jealousy - our attitude to wealth and the dated 'working' class attitudes around it are why we are where we are as a sport.

Look at the poop given to Koukash, look at poop thrown at Hughes etc etc and these arent in the same league as Ratcliffe. RL fans have a huge streak of jealousy in far too many of them - has anyone seen similar attacks on RU club owners by fans?

Lets play a scenario out - RL hook Koukash, we have no cap so he spends to bring success for the club and him - his motivation to spend is the success. As he goes from club to club he finds his peers to be folks who are doing OK for themselves via SME's or have sold a business and are sitting on cash or have had a decent job and draw a wage from the club they run or something of a mix between all. He starts to invite his business peers to games, makes them aware of opportunities - lets not forget RL is peanuts in this world - and the craic they could have if they owned a few clubs. RL is now networking in the right circles.

Lets play another scenario TW come in cashed up and wanting to expand the sport professionally into a new continent - so what do we do - give them 3 pointless years in lower leagues. What if they had gone straight into SL cashed up having not wasted £10m getting there, and 3 years of top flight RL before covid!! Would year 2 have seen another major Canadian city wanting a slice, Y3 New York? etc

We are a sport of shopkeepers, a good year is making a few bob and a bad one is cutting your clothe for the following one - this is not how Wealth works.

 

 

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