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Sat 17th Sept: SL: St Helens v Salford Red Devils KO 13:00 (Sky & Channel 4)


Who will win?  

63 members have voted

  1. 1. Who will win?

    • St Helens
      28
    • Salford Red Devils
      35

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  • Poll closed on 17/09/22 at 12:00

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3 minutes ago, LeeF said:

Without opening up another can of worms it would have been sent up as “no try” which raises the bar for the VR to award

See my discussion with Bobbruce on this.  The no try would have referred to the fact that the Salford player didn't score,  not the penalty try (or not) .  That was quite clear in the Grand Final video ref decision... 

The ref sent that up as No try,  and then asked the VR to look at the merits of a penalty try.  The on field ref did not make a ruling on penalty try. 

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10 minutes ago, LeeF said:

Forgot to add that the ball rolled dead so you can’t claim it was in the in-goal area as this is the key point in the no try decision 

As I recall the ball had  not gone dead when the foul was committed. And this is my point about a kick through, it does not matter if you think the ball would have gone dead or not, if a chasing attacker is fouled to prevent them from following up the ball then it should be a penalty try. If the defender commiting the foul didn't think the attacker wasn't going to score why would they  bother to  commit the foul? 

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8 minutes ago, LeeF said:

Without opening up another can of worms it would have been sent up as “no try” which raises the bar for the VR to award

 

3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

See my discussion with Bobbruce on this.  The no try would have referred to the fact that the Salford player didn't score,  not the penalty try (or not) .  That was quite clear in the Grand Final video ref decision... 

The ref sent that up as No try,  and then asked the VR to look at the merits of a penalty try.  The on field ref did not make a ruling on penalty try. 

Interestingly,  to jump in ahead of your reply,  I've just watched an NRL one (Farnworth)  where it is sent up as a Penalty Try.  I don't recall ever seeing this in UK RL -  is the protocol identical? 

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8 minutes ago, Dave T said:

One last screen capture (probably). 

This shows where the foul started.  It is amazing that the Salford player got so close to the ball considering this,  and imho it is stuff like this that going to the VR could have helped.  All the replays (apart from this angle)  shows only the latter stages as the ball is near the dead ball line,  but when the foul starts,  the ball is well in the field. 

 

IMG_20220917_215803_copy_912x420.jpg

He's about as far away from the ball as the ball is from the dead ball line. We need a mathematician to work out the respective speeds, heehee.

The more I see of the incident, I think TRY, TRY, TRY.

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10 minutes ago, Dave T said:

One last screen capture (probably). 

This shows where the foul started.  It is amazing that the Salford player got so close to the ball considering this,  and imho it is stuff like this that going to the VR could have helped.  All the replays (apart from this angle)  shows only the latter stages as the ball is near the dead ball line,  but when the foul starts,  the ball is well in the field. 

 

IMG_20220917_215803_copy_912x420.jpg

Screen shots can be misleading in this discussion though.

The single most important variable in the decision was how fast the ball was travelling and if Lafai would have caught it in time.  This is impossible from a still shot.

That's not to say I didn't think it was a penalty try.

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"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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14 minutes ago, Dave T said:

One last screen capture (probably). 

This shows where the foul started.  It is amazing that the Salford player got so close to the ball considering this,  and imho it is stuff like this that going to the VR could have helped.  All the replays (apart from this angle)  shows only the latter stages as the ball is near the dead ball line,  but when the foul starts,  the ball is well in the field. 

 

IMG_20220917_215803_copy_912x420.jpg

Screen shots can be misleading in this discussion though.

The single most important variable in the decision was how fast the ball was travelling and if Lafai would have caught it in time.  This is impossible from a still shot.

That's not to say I didn't think it was a penalty try.

I thought that was a really important point so I said it twice. 

Edited by Dunbar
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"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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5 minutes ago, Hemi4561 said:

As I recall the ball had  not gone dead when the foul was committed. And this is my point about a kick through, it does not matter if you think the ball would have gone dead or not, if a chasing attacker is fouled to prevent them from following up the ball then it should be a penalty try. If the defender commiting the foul didn't think the attacker wasn't going to score why would they  bother to  commit the foul? 

The foul is to prevent them having the opportunity to attempt to score not the definite fact that they would have scored plus so much could happen eg knock on picking the ball up, a quicker player getting back etc that the awarding of the try in your scenario is too subjective 

Whikst I understand your point of view I disagree as it is too subjective and open ended

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3 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Screen shots can be misleading in this discussion though.

The single most important variable in the decision was how fast the ball was travelling and if Lafai would have caught it in time.  This is impossible from a still shot.

That's not to say I didn't think it was a penalty try.

And this is the crux, if Lafai had not been fouled we would have a definite answer, the foul denied that certainty, so the benefit of the doubt should be given to the attacking side. 

 

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7 minutes ago, Dave T said:

 

Interestingly,  to jump in ahead of your reply,  I've just watched an NRL one (Farnworth)  where it is sent up as a Penalty Try.  I don't recall ever seeing this in UK RL -  is the protocol identical? 

I haven’t seen the NRL incident but I’m fairly sure the protocols are slightly different

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2 minutes ago, Hemi4561 said:

And this is the crux, if Lafai had not been fouled we would have a definite answer, the foul denied that certainty, so the benefit of the doubt should be given to the attacking side. 

 

All fouls technically deny the certainty of a definitive answer eg the high tackle prevents the player from breaking through the line to score; the flop prevents a quick PTB against a broken defensive line. So taking your point to an extreme all fouls should result in tries being awarded under the benefit of doubt?

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19 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Screen shots can be misleading in this discussion though.

The single most important variable in the decision was how fast the ball was travelling and if Lafai would have caught it in time.  This is impossible from a still shot.

That's not to say I didn't think it was a penalty try.

Of course,  none of these would be taken as decent evidence. 

What I would say is that the pic of the start of the foul suggests the Salford player is further away from the ball than the last pic just before the ball goes dead. 

That suggests that he is travelling faster than the ball even despite being fouled. 

Whether he was travelling  fast enough is open to debate,  and ultimately the ref thought not. 

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In soccer it's "denial of a goal scoring opportunity" that attracts a red card. Not denial of a goal.

Not the same thing of course, but you can certainly argue there was a denial of a try scoring opportunity (by foul play) in the incident. Might be a case for clarification of the laws?

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1 minute ago, wilsontown said:

In soccer it's "denial of a goal scoring opportunity" that attracts a red card. Not denial of a goal.

Not the same thing of course, but you can certainly argue there was a denial of a try scoring opportunity (by foul play) in the incident. Might be a case for clarification of the laws?

To be fair,  the laws are relatively clear (when people quote them properly),  I think there is a debate over whether they are fit for purpose and proportionate. 

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I'll watch the game back tomorrow with a clearer head and make my mind up on the "penalty try incident". The problem you have as a Salford fan is that it just feels like the latest in a long line of calls that have gone against us against Saints.

The 3 main ones I can recall off the top of my head:

1) The Bentley "try" in 2019 at the TWS which pretty much everyone (Saints fans included said he dropped). With 30 seconds to go it won them the game.

2) The Lolohea "no try" in the GF when Logan Tomkins was penalised for obstruction.

3) Today's incident.

We've not won at Saints in 42 years and generally get spanked but it seems that even when we put in a performance the referee then does something that has a major impact on us losing the game.

Listen, Saints were the better team today and deserved the win and only sheer guts kept us in the game. But getting that close and having it snatched away really does smart. TBH I'm 44 now and almost resigned to never seeing Salford win at the TWS!

Edited by SalfordSlim
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Batchelors dissollowed try had a similar foul to Tommy's, he was checked and pulled back slightly..

So thats one each.

Also no way would he have got to the ball first. 

The player wasn't in the act of scoring he was chasing a kick so even if people think he might have its subjective and not 100% which it would have needed to be if it went upto the video ref. 

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8 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Saints aren't anything special

It’s taken you all season to notice that. Saints have been average for most of the games since we lost Dodd bar the odd exception. Today our defence won us the game because in attack it was poor at times, with the five drives down the middle a drop off pass and then try and power over. It can be dull, but in these one off games it does the job. Next week Leeds will be more aware of the Lomax grubber, Saints need too offer more than that. Salford are a great side to watch and their second try was a cracker. It was also great seeing so many Salford fans there, i hope the Salford public start backing them because they deserve it. 

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8 hours ago, Dunbar said:

It's a judgement call whether Lafai would have got there before the ball went dead.

If he had gone to the video ref then it would still have been a judgment call, the video ref make a definitive call.

I would have been happy with a penalty try given but I can see why the ref thought the kick was too heavy.

My take on it too.

The ball was rolling out of play, even if Lafai has a clear run at it he may not have got there.

A penalty try should only be awarded if the actions of a defender(s) had prevented a certain try from being scored.

I don't think it did prevent a certain try being scored so correct decision by Kendall for me.

 

People complain when refs don't make instinctive decisions and then complain when they do.

 

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8 hours ago, Jughead said:

Thank the Lord that ended. A markable difference in performance between the first and second half in both teams there. As comfortable as it should have been for Saints after that first half, the second was a hard slog. 

Kendall couldn’t have been in a better position for the penalty try “controversy” and I’m not sure what the video ref would have ascertained that Kendall couldn’t/wouldn’t have seen. 

Salford get the off-season to learn the rest of the dance moves to the YMCA. They’ve nailed the Y whenever one of their own players was tackled. 

Most teams, especially St Helens are masters of it now but very good analogy 😃

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8 hours ago, OMEGA said:

Time after time we take what should have been a shining example of how sport should be played and we cover it in so much Referee controversy that it ridicules the contest.

The Ref had just watched Bennison race through from nowhere to ground a ball right at the dead ball line. Why then does he seem to think it’s impossible for Lafai to do the same but for the professional foul?

so now everyone is talking about Salford being robbed and the result being a travesty

Not everyone 

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7 hours ago, GeordieSaint said:

As a Saints fan, our supporter base is incredibly negative and hyper-critical. I guess success breads wanting and expecting the best. But we don’t half over do it. 

We’ve played the majority of the season without our first choice scrum half, and I don’t think once had our first choice centre partnership on the field. We’ve lost our most influential prop, who has been playing on one leg for half the season. Saints have achieved wonders this year; demonstrating the sheer quality and will in the squad and club.

It’ll be tough next week with Knowles likely out and an inform Leeds side. But it’ll need a top quality Leeds performance to beat this Saints team. 

I totally agree with that GS and i am one of those negative fans. I do have to admit Saints fans can soon turn on their side, a gang of lads were stood behind me against Toulouse a couple of weeks back and they booed Saints off at HT.

 But i like to think im not like the majority of Saints fans or any RL fan that follows a club who seem to go to every match with the idea that the RFL and officials are corrupt and have got it in for their club. 
I get told that i hate Saints and i want them too lose because i am not screaming that an opponent should be sent off for a high tackle around the belly of a Saints player. 

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7 hours ago, Damien said:

It was actually one of the worst things I have seen from a professional player. Yes players go out to hurt, make big hits and yes they sometimes get it badly wrong but that appeared very malicious and was completely avoidable.

He was a massive ######. 

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