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Sat 17th Sept: SL: St Helens v Salford Red Devils KO 13:00 (Sky & Channel 4)


Who will win?  

63 members have voted

  1. 1. Who will win?

    • St Helens
      28
    • Salford Red Devils
      35

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  • Poll closed on 17/09/22 at 12:00

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14 minutes ago, Chris22 said:

Saw it mentioned on thus thread earlier, but wonder if Salford made an error in not kicking the penalty after the Makinson sin bin.

Reduces the score to 5, with 5 to go and a man advantage?

Yes. I also would have dropped a goal to level it when they were on the line at 12-13.

The one pointer was fundamental for the rest of the game. 

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Only just been able to watch game back, dear oh dear what a statement from Woolf, he doesn't think there was owt in the Knowles incident. If he doesn't get a ban for that disgusting tackle there is something wrong with rugby league. Ref totally bottled giving a penalty try which it was, I despair sometimes, just adds to the conspiracy theories.

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9 hours ago, Josef K said:

It’s taken you all season to notice that. Saints have been average for most of the games since we lost Dodd bar the odd exception. Today our defence won us the game because in attack it was poor at times, with the five drives down the middle a drop off pass and then try and power over. It can be dull, but in these one off games it does the job. Next week Leeds will be more aware of the Lomax grubber, Saints need too offer more than that. Salford are a great side to watch and their second try was a cracker. It was also great seeing so many Salford fans there, i hope the Salford public start backing them because they deserve it. 

I've thought it for a while but it hasn't been all that relevant till this week really.

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On balance, I would say it was a penalty try.  But as I have said several times, with the weight of the kick, it isn't 100% nailed on.  But it was a cynical foul and should have been punished with a penalty try as it denied a 'probable' try from being scored.

As for the outrage.

I was wondering what the reaction would have been if it was exactly the same situation but a Saints attack and the penalty try given.  I suspect there would be outrage from some that a penalty try was given to Saints.

The fact that Bachelor grounded the ball on the dead ball line earlier in the game despite interference on his run but there was no penalty or review shows that these decisions are not part of some huge conspiracy. 

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"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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10 hours ago, yipyee said:

Batchelors dissollowed try had a similar foul to Tommy's, he was checked and pulled back slightly..

So thats one each.

Also no way would he have got to the ball first. 

The player wasn't in the act of scoring he was chasing a kick so even if people think he might have its subjective and not 100% which it would have needed to be if it went upto the video ref. 

There is no requirement for 100% certainty. 

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38 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

On balance, I would say it was a penalty try.  But as I have said several times, with the weight of the kick, it isn't 100% nailed on.  But it was a cynical foul and should have been punished with a penalty try as it denied a 'probable' try from being scored.

As for the outrage.

I was wondering what the reaction would have been if it was exactly the same situation but a Saints attack and the penalty try given.  I suspect there would be outrage from some that a penalty try was given to Saints.

The fact that Bachelor grounded the ball on the dead ball line earlier in the game despite interference on his run but there was no penalty or review shows that these decisions are not part of some huge conspiracy. 

The general consensus is that even those who land on the side of no penalty try wouldn't have argued had it been awarded as it was a close one. I'm not sure of the need to try and belittle the last few pages of discussion as a bias anti-Saints thing. 

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14 minutes ago, Dave T said:

The general consensus is that even those who land on the side of no penalty try wouldn't have argued had it been awarded as it was a close one. I'm not sure of the need to try and belittle the last few pages of discussion as a bias anti-Saints thing. 

It wasn't my intention to try and belittle anything.

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"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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8 hours ago, Loiner said:

Only just been able to watch game back, dear oh dear what a statement from Woolf, he doesn't think there was owt in the Knowles incident. If he doesn't get a ban for that disgusting tackle there is something wrong with rugby league. Ref totally bottled giving a penalty try which it was, I despair sometimes, just adds to the conspiracy theories.

Bigger problem with Rugby League is that your team could even be considered as Champions.

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13 hours ago, Dave T said:

Of course,  none of these would be taken as decent evidence. 

What I would say is that the pic of the start of the foul suggests the Salford player is further away from the ball than the last pic just before the ball goes dead. 

That suggests that he is travelling faster than the ball even despite being fouled. 

Whether he was travelling  fast enough is open to debate,  and ultimately the ref thought not. 

agreed, but have to consider the probability the player would have dived to to put pressure on the ball... thus given his arm reach he was closer to the ball

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1 hour ago, redjonn said:

agreed, but have to consider the probability the player would have dived to to put pressure on the ball... thus given his arm reach he was closer to the ball

Yep,  that's the conclusion I come to.  He would have scored imho. 

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Professionalism, or variations of it, seem to be the theme that I take away from this game.

There was something very methodical about Saints' rough house tactics. Targeting players with cheap head shots and chicken wingers from the start.

This a cynical Professionalism.This is cac housery rugby.

You'd think that we would have moved on, but clearly not. Maybe Saints are scared of losing their grip and as the genius of Roby ages, the only way is to kick off.  I think there is ample talent in that team. It is exceptional. However this makes resorting to thuggery even less acceptable.

Now in normal circumstances, when presented with orchestrated violence, you rely on good refereeing to quell this. This brings us to a Professionalism, or a seeming lack of it.

History has multiple tales procrastination. From the Phillipics in the Roman Senate, ignoring Cicero's pleas for them to act against the invading enemies to Liz Truss failing to tax profit abundant energy companies.

Yesterday, the Officialdom bottled it.  From the (2nd minute) moment Saints thuggery took hold, the Refs should have cracked it down. They didn't. The Game is sullied by it.

Let's be honest this is becoming almost expectant at the Big Games-remember that Makinson hands around the neck "tackle" at last year's Grand Final, the Smithies/Yates incidents at this  years Challenge Cup final.  The way Leeds "earned" the penalty that led to that Gale drop goal winner in 2020.

This is a reduction in Professionalism. The very authority to enforced the Laws, keep plyers safe, be consistent and fair, is absent. I question whether they are really protecting players, or their own backsides.

Chicken wings - a clear red, Lafai pulled back, a clear penalty try, Welsby tackle .A clear sin binning.  Banning these thugs after the game is pointless. It offers no compensation to the offended side.

That Lafai incident basically renders the Penalty Try Law useless. Kendall might not have thought after his cheery chats with Roby and Lomas, but Makinson thought otherwise, thus he commited the foul.

Lastly there is the Professionalism of the Just. Thankfully faced with the above, Salford did not descend or respond with their own cac housery. 

Yesterday Salford tried to play with the Heart, Saints played with the Head. Often literally.

Rowleyball is a saviour for the Game. Successful and entertaining. This is the Game we want. 

We are true and only Entertainers Now. 

I cough, ache and sniff in my bed, full of COVID, But a sense of Pride and respect for thiss Salford team i immense.

Thank you. 

Edited by idrewthehaggis
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1 hour ago, idrewthehaggis said:

Professionalism, or variations of it, seem to be the theme that I take away from this game.

There was something very methodical about Saints' rough house tactics. Targeting players with cheap head shots and chicken wingers from the start.

This a cynical Professionalism.This is cac housery rugby.

You'd think that we would have moved on, but clearly not. Maybe Saints are scared of losing their grip and as the genius of Roby ages, the only way is to kick off.  I think there is ample talent in that team. It is exceptional. However this makes resorting to thuggery even less acceptable.

Now in normal circumstances, when presented with orchestrated violence, you rely on good refereeing to quell this. This brings us to a Professionalism, or a seeming lack of it.

History has multiple tales procrastination. From the Phillipics in the Roman Senate, ignoring Cicero's pleas for them to act against the invading enemies to Liz Truss failing to tax profit abundant energy companies.

Yesterday, the Officialdom bottled it.  From the (2nd minute) moment Saints thuggery took hold, the Refs should have cracked it down. They didn't. The Game is sullied by it.

Let's be honest this is becoming almost expectant at the Big Games-remember that Makinson hands around the neck "tackle" at last year's Grand Final, the Smithies/Yates incidents at this  years Challenge Cup final.  The way Leeds "earned" the penalty that led to that Gale drop goal winner in 2020.

This is a reduction in Professionalism. The very authority to enforced the Laws, keep plyers safe, be consistent and fair, is absent. I question whether they are really protecting players, or their own backsides.

Chicken wings - a clear red, Lafai pulled back, a clear penalty try, Welsby tackle .A clear sin binning.  Banning these thugs after the game is pointless. It offers no compensation to the offended side.

That Lafai incident basically renders the Penalty Try Law useless. Kendall might not have thought after his cheery chats with Roby and Lomas, but Makinson thought otherwise, thus he commited the foul.

Lastly there is the Professionalism of the Just. Thankfully faced with the above, Salford did not descend or respond with their own cac housery. 

Yesterday Salford tried to play with the Heart, Saints played with the Head. Often literally.

Rowleyball is a saviour for the Game. Successful and entertaining. This is the Game we want. 

We are true and only Entertainers Now. 

I cough, ache and sniff in my bed, full of COVID, But a sense of Pride and respect for thiss Salford team i immense.

Thank you. 

Put your toys back in the pram and try again next year. 

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For some positioning a good argument, maybe the use of "big words" and having insight escapes them.

And of course, history has plenty of apologists for the men of violence and cheats.

I do wonder why RL seems so cursed with having its premier games mangled by poor ref decisions. 

Remember the Bad Guys sometimes win.

They do so with the support of some and the inaction of others.

 

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1 hour ago, idrewthehaggis said:

For some positioning a good argument, maybe the use of "big words" and having insight escapes them.

And of course, history has plenty of apologists for the men of violence and cheats.

I do wonder why RL seems so cursed with having its premier games mangled by poor ref decisions. 

Remember the Bad Guys sometimes win.

They do so with the support of some and the inaction of others.

 

You're talking nonsense, no matter how much pseudo intellectual garbage you write.

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5 hours ago, idrewthehaggis said:

Professionalism, or variations of it, seem to be the theme that I take away from this game.

There was something very methodical about Saints' rough house tactics. Targeting players with cheap head shots and chicken wingers from the start.

This a cynical Professionalism.This is cac housery rugby.

You'd think that we would have moved on, but clearly not. Maybe Saints are scared of losing their grip and as the genius of Roby ages, the only way is to kick off.  I think there is ample talent in that team. It is exceptional. However this makes resorting to thuggery even less acceptable.

Now in normal circumstances, when presented with orchestrated violence, you rely on good refereeing to quell this. This brings us to a Professionalism, or a seeming lack of it.

History has multiple tales procrastination. From the Phillipics in the Roman Senate, ignoring Cicero's pleas for them to act against the invading enemies to Liz Truss failing to tax profit abundant energy companies.

Yesterday, the Officialdom bottled it.  From the (2nd minute) moment Saints thuggery took hold, the Refs should have cracked it down. They didn't. The Game is sullied by it.

Let's be honest this is becoming almost expectant at the Big Games-remember that Makinson hands around the neck "tackle" at last year's Grand Final, the Smithies/Yates incidents at this  years Challenge Cup final.  The way Leeds "earned" the penalty that led to that Gale drop goal winner in 2020.

This is a reduction in Professionalism. The very authority to enforced the Laws, keep plyers safe, be consistent and fair, is absent. I question whether they are really protecting players, or their own backsides.

Chicken wings - a clear red, Lafai pulled back, a clear penalty try, Welsby tackle .A clear sin binning.  Banning these thugs after the game is pointless. It offers no compensation to the offended side.

That Lafai incident basically renders the Penalty Try Law useless. Kendall might not have thought after his cheery chats with Roby and Lomas, but Makinson thought otherwise, thus he commited the foul.

Lastly there is the Professionalism of the Just. Thankfully faced with the above, Salford did not descend or respond with their own cac housery. 

Yesterday Salford tried to play with the Heart, Saints played with the Head. Often literally.

Rowleyball is a saviour for the Game. Successful and entertaining. This is the Game we want. 

We are true and only Entertainers Now. 

I cough, ache and sniff in my bed, full of COVID, But a sense of Pride and respect for thiss Salford team i immense.

Thank you. 

Salford player pulled Batch back when he grounded on the line, think you missed that off your summary.

Maybe Salford can learn from this game as they can't seem to win a big game. 

If the ref let's you do things its not a penalty, its called playing on the edge, saints never used to play on the edge and lost 5 finals in a row to sides that did.

I am glad they are now getting games won. Its only the score that goes down in history, no one remembers the loosing semi finalists.

Good luck to Salford next season, they should be a key cog on the top division.

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1 hour ago, idrewthehaggis said:

For some positioning a good argument, maybe the use of "big words" and having insight escapes them.

And of course, history has plenty of apologists for the men of violence and cheats.

I do wonder why RL seems so cursed with having its premier games mangled by poor ref decisions. 

Remember the Bad Guys sometimes win.

They do so with the support of some and the inaction of others.

Without doubt some decisions went against Salford. However as a fan its often easy to focus on the decisions that go against you. I was rooting for a Salford win but as a neutral Saints were the better team, they blew Salford away in that first half and Salford did great to hang in there. Sometimes you just have to acknowledge the other team were better.

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Yeah I take on what you are saying and perhaps I will read some of this and query how addled this COVID is doing to my head. This has been a disappointing week. Albeit more shocked and disappointed with Saints tactics and how this has  shattered my perception of them as the "Entertainers."

Moving on. 

More

 

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4 hours ago, idrewthehaggis said:

For some positioning a good argument, maybe the use of "big words" and having insight escapes them.

And of course, history has plenty of apologists for the men of violence and cheats.

I do wonder why RL seems so cursed with having its premier games mangled by poor ref decisions. 

Remember the Bad Guys sometimes win.

They do so with the support of some and the inaction of others.

 

Was it you making your way into St Helens town centre with three mates yesterday Mr Haggis. I was talking with Salford fans, who were ###### off and plastered.
But what made me laugh at one of them was his comment on how they (Salford) was robbed of winning the challenge cup final against Leeds because they(Leeds) are cheating t**** just like the other big clubs like you cheating scouse b******* (Saints), and Wigan, Wire”. He went on “those clubs are killing the game as are the officials who don’t like clubs like us(Salford) and they don’t want Salford in a final”.
I thought Blimey why are you bringing up Leeds and a final that must’ve been played at least three or four years ago in your rant. I hope he wasn’t as bitter today when he got up as he was yesterday afternoon. 

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1 hour ago, idrewthehaggis said:

Yeah I take on what you are saying and perhaps I will read some of this and query how addled this COVID is doing to my head. This has been a disappointing week. Albeit more shocked and disappointed with Saints tactics and how this has  shattered my perception of them as the "Entertainers."

Moving on. 

More

 

Ah so you wasn’t one of the bitter ###### Salford fans i was talking to yesterday.

Or the one who threw the smoke bomb on the pitch. 
I hope you get over covid and i hope SRD’s continue to play exciting RL in 2023. But Just as important is the public of Salford turning up more regularly.
Do you think SRD built on the GF you made Vs Saints, and do you think the club will be able to build on this season.  

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14 hours ago, Bod said:

Bigger problem with Rugby League is that your team could even be considered as Champions.

Sorry but that's how the rules are written, fancy being beaten by SRD in 6th. 

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7 hours ago, Josef K said:

Was it you making your way into St Helens town centre with three mates yesterday Mr Haggis. I was talking with Salford fans, who were ###### off and plastered.
But what made me laugh at one of them was his comment on how they (Salford) was robbed of winning the challenge cup final against Leeds because they(Leeds) are cheating t**** just like the other big clubs like you cheating scouse b******* (Saints), and Wigan, Wire”. He went on “those clubs are killing the game as are the officials who don’t like clubs like us(Salford) and they don’t want Salford in a final”.
I thought Blimey why are you bringing up Leeds and a final that must’ve been played at least three or four years ago in your rant. I hope he wasn’t as bitter today when he got up as he was yesterday afternoon. 

It's just human nature that some people are only happy when they are unhappy.  Take no notice.

'The Invisble Man is at the door'.     'Tell him I can't see him'.      The late, great Tommy Cooper

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11 hours ago, Josef K said:

Was it you making your way into St Helens town centre with three mates yesterday Mr Haggis. I was talking with Salford fans, who were ###### off and plastered.
But what made me laugh at one of them was his comment on how they (Salford) was robbed of winning the challenge cup final against Leeds because they(Leeds) are cheating t**** just like the other big clubs like you cheating scouse b******* (Saints), and Wigan, Wire”. He went on “those clubs are killing the game as are the officials who don’t like clubs like us(Salford) and they don’t want Salford in a final”.
I thought Blimey why are you bringing up Leeds and a final that must’ve been played at least three or four years ago in your rant. I hope he wasn’t as bitter today when he got up as he was yesterday afternoon. 

No it was not, do you mind.

I hope you taught them some manners. I would have.

Personally bar one occasion when it was -5, I do not drink booze before/during a game. Just never.  Even the attraction of a wide selection of iced German beers and a number of choice single malt whiskies would be tempting, but resisted. Just don't see the point. 

Plus it was Saints supporting grandfather who got me into this and on the few times I go there, I usually sit with the home supporters. Face to face usually moderates the worse of attitudes. There is some good craic and all. Well that is I find.

As for Salford laddoes, If you try to extract the drunken bellendery and one eyed bias (can we still use that phrase?) they have a point of sorts.

Four successful campaigns. Three of them massively disrupted by "interpretations"  of the law.

Two missed dismissals (cannonball tackle in 97 and chicken winged in 22), a penalty try, head shots aplenty and differing interpretations in judging the PTBs within 60 seconds that set up that drop goal in 20. Child, Moore and Kendall. Wigan, Leeds, St Helms. 

I always think it is churlish to look to bad refing as a reason for defeat, but it just gets too regular by officialdom to ignore now.  

Personally friend, I would be more concerned with the rush to defend teams, coaches and players who enact rough house tactics than a gaggle of pushed  Salfordians out in sunny St Helens. 

 

 

 

 

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39 minutes ago, idrewthehaggis said:

No it was not, do you mind.

I hope you taught them some manners. I would have.

Personally bar one occasion when it was -5, I do not drink booze before/during a game. Just never.  Even the attraction of a wide selection of iced German beers and a number of choice single malt whiskies would be tempting, but resisted. Just don't see the point. 

Plus it was Saints supporting grandfather who got me into this and on the few times I go there, I usually sit with the home supporters. Face to face usually moderates the worse of attitudes. There is some good craic and all. Well that is I find.

As for Salford laddoes, If you try to extract the drunken bellendery and one eyed bias (can we still use that phrase?) they have a point of sorts.

Four successful campaigns. Three of them massively disrupted by "interpretations"  of the law.

Two missed dismissals (cannonball tackle in 97 and chicken winged in 22), a penalty try, head shots aplenty and differing interpretations in judging the PTBs within 60 seconds that set up that drop goal in 20. Child, Moore and Kendall. Wigan, Leeds, St Helms. 

I always think it is churlish to look to bad refing as a reason for defeat, but it just gets too regular by officialdom to ignore now.  

Personally friend, I would be more concerned with the rush to defend teams, coaches and players who enact rough house tactics than a gaggle of pushed  Salfordians out in sunny St Helens. 

 

 

 

 

I didn’t realise i had defended any club who in your eyes use rough house tactics. By the looks of it from your comment It’s the Salford Red Devils who are always the victims.
Just imagine if you had followed in your grandads footsteps you’d be a lot happier now. Or would you, you might be blaming other clubs and their rough house tactics and how Sky and Phil Clarke hate Saints. 

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