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Sat 17th Sept: SL: St Helens v Salford Red Devils KO 13:00 (Sky & Channel 4)


Who will win?  

63 members have voted

  1. 1. Who will win?

    • St Helens
      28
    • Salford Red Devils
      35

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  • Poll closed on 17/09/22 at 12:00

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2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Agreed,  I think there is enough in the positioning of Welsby to suggest that would firmly be accidental.  Potentially a caution around recklessness at the very worst,  but I'd be surprised if anything comes of it. 

It may well be accidental, but it was still wreckless and a clear shoulder to the head. Players have certainly been binned at least for that this season.

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Just now, Damien said:

It may well be accidental, but it was still wreckless and a clear shoulder to the head. Players have certainly been binned at least for that this season.

The screen grab was blurry,  so I couldn't make out shoulder to head,  it looked like head to head.  But as I say,  was blurry. 

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Just now, Dave T said:

The screen grab was blurry,  so I couldn't make out shoulder to head,  it looked like head to head.  But as I say,  was blurry. 

This maybe shows a better angle. If you pause it and use the slider to progress it frame by frame its fairly clear where the contact is, albeit still blurred:

 

 

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1 minute ago, Dave T said:

The screen grab was blurry,  so I couldn't make out shoulder to head,  it looked like head to head.  But as I say,  was blurry. 

At the time I described it, jokingly, as a flying headbutt. I suspect he may get a letter warning him to be less wreckless with his tackling technique and that is the end of it.

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5 minutes ago, Damien said:

It may well be accidental, but it was still wreckless and a clear shoulder to the head. Players have certainly been binned at least for that this season.

I've just watched it in HD on the TV,  and yes,  I agree,  there could be something in it,  it was certainly contact with the head. 

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1 hour ago, LeeF said:

It’s the words “would have scored” that is the important bit and with the ball rolling dead and the distance the Salford player was from the ball the referee gave the correct decision. This is how the law has been for a number of years

"would have scored" is key, it isn't, might, may possibly but the definite "would", maybe give the referee an option in this situation to offer a penalty under the posts, the intention was to make sure he couldn't score even though it was doubtful he would have.

Edited by Padge
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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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3 minutes ago, Padge said:

"would have scored" is key, it isn't, might, may possibly but the definite "would", maybe give the referee an option in this situation to offer a penalty under the posts, the intention was to make sure he couldn't score even though it was doubtful he would have.

The whole sentence does rather lower the bar though,  by acknowledging that it is an opinion piece for the ref:

The Referee may award a penalty try if, in their opinion, or that of the video referee, a try would have been scored but for the unfair play of the defending team. 

In this instance,  the ref does clearly state he doesn't think there would haven been a try. 

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As a child of the 80's in Rugby League terms, the Welsby one is a difficult one.

As my first instinct is that it was a belting tackle.

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8 minutes ago, Dave T said:

The whole sentence does rather lower the bar though,  by acknowledging that it is an opinion piece for the ref:

The Referee may award a penalty try if, in their opinion, or that of the video referee, a try would have been scored but for the unfair play of the defending team. 

In this instance,  the ref does clearly state he doesn't think there would haven been a try. 

I know he did, and in a post I made earlier I clearly stated that I didn't think he would score and therefore it was not a penalty try option. What I am saying is that it is obvious the players intention, as it was in this case, to stop any chance of the player scoring (even though it was obvious to the ref but not the miscreant that he wouldn't score) a half way option is a penalty is always given under the sticks.

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Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

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1 minute ago, Padge said:

I know he did, and in a post I made earlier I clearly stated that I didn't think he would score and therefore it was not a penalty try option. What I am saying is that it is obvious the players intention, as it was in this case, to stop any chance of the player scoring (even though it was obvious to the ref but not the miscreant that he wouldn't score) a half way option is a penalty is always given under the sticks.

I personally think the bar is set too high,  it is well worth a player fouling in that situation as refs are very reluctant to give them.  

Interesting that RU use the word probably in their laws. 

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6 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I personally think the bar is set too high,  it is well worth a player fouling in that situation as refs are very reluctant to give them.  

Which is why making the punishment for attempts to stop try scoring even when it is unlikely that the punishment is at least increased to at least offer a two point (almost) guaranteed punishment.

Thinking about it after the two points are taken it should then be a drop out from under the posts and not a half-way restart.

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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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8 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I personally think the bar is set too high,  it is well worth a player fouling in that situation as refs are very reluctant to give them.  

Interesting that RU use the word probably in their laws. 

The bar was increased a few years ago.
 

In todays game if the ball had not rolled dead then a try would have been awarded imo under the current guidelines. As it was even Usain Bolt would have struggled to get to the ball before it rolled dead

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1 minute ago, LeeF said:

The bar was increased a few years ago.
 

In todays game if the ball had not rolled dead then a try would have been awarded imo under the current guidelines. As it was even Usain Bolt would have struggled to get to the ball before it rolled dead

I'm happy with the refs conclusion,  but I dont think it is that clear cut.  The Salford player is quite close to this ball,  he is in the in-goal area,  as is the ball,  and he has already been fouled. 

IMG_20220917_211213_edit_73550272625234_copy_559x321.jpg

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2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'm happy with the refs conclusion,  but I dont think it is that clear cut.  The Salford player is quite close to this ball,  he is in the in-goal area,  as is the ball,  and he has already been fouled. 

IMG_20220917_211213_edit_73550272625234_copy_559x321.jpg

He actually seems a damn site closer there than I realised at the time, especially as you say he has already been severely impeded and is falling.

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59 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

As a child of the 80's in Rugby League terms, the Welsby one is a difficult one.

As my first instinct is that it was a belting tackle.

Reminds me of a Kylie Lueluai bellringer on Brett Hodgson at Wembley. I loved how Hodgson said after the game with a rueful smile that Kylie ''got me good'' and that ''there was nothing in it''.

It looks like a smashing hit from Welsby, but the hidden far-side shoulder into the chin could be an issue. It would be a certain yellow in RU, and a potential red if the shoulder went directly into the chin.

Looking at it with RL glasses on, my instinct says penalty and play on. 

Edited by StandOffHalf
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2 minutes ago, Damien said:

He actually seems a damn site closer there than I realised at the time, especially as you say he has already been severely impeded and is falling.

I know it is a challenge using stills,  but the 2nd pic shows his knees relatively close to the ball ( a metre or so),  if he was allowed to have his arms and body ahead of him by not being fouled there is definitely a shout that he could have reached it. 

I think at the very worst it is 50/50

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5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

This is just before the ball goes dead,  the Salford player is probably a metre short of it -  he has been heavily obstructed -  that ball is probably within the reach of an uninterfered with player who dives. 

 

IMG_20220917_211843_copy_912x420.jpg

I know what you are saying but the ball going dead I think was the key to the decision which I, at the time, didn’t have any issues with. BTW even after watching replays I was fine with the decision 

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Just now, LeeF said:

I know what you are saying but the ball going dead I think was the key to the decision which I, at the time, didn’t have any issues with. BTW even after watching replays I was fine with the decision 

I can certainly live with it as the laws are that it is the refs opinion,  and none of us can say what would have happened -  as we've seen opinions differ,  so it's not clear cut either way. 

My view is these fouls should be penalty tries and we should amend the rules to soften the wording. 

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1 minute ago, Dave T said:

I know it is a challenge using stills,  but the 2nd pic shows his knees relatively close to the ball ( a metre or so),  if he was allowed to have his arms and body ahead of him by not being fouled there is definitely a shout that he could have reached it. 

I think at the very worst it is 50/50

Absolutely fair comments however I just can’t see it being given even on the field or via a VR and it’s definitely not something to castigate the referee for as some, not you, seem to want to do

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Just now, Dave T said:

I can certainly live with it as the laws are that it is the refs opinion,  and none of us can say what would have happened -  as we've seen opinions differ,  so it's not clear cut either way. 

My view is these fouls should be penalty tries and we should amend the rules to soften the wording. 

I agree that we should go back to the older interpretation where that would have been given as a penalty try

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