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On 15/09/2022 at 11:24, Dave T said:

I recall reading something on this previously,  but what's the rationale for a 2nd Brisbane team,  in terms of fan base.  I'm sure I read that Brisbane Broncos are unpopular with some people,  what's the background to that? 

I think this is another example of how different the markets are -  putting a new team in the league whose primary home ground is the Suncorp,  the same as another teams seems bizarre, but no doubt it'll work. 

Basically, the Broncos were blamed for degrading the old Brisbane comp. The South Queensland Crushers were set up in the 90s partly to cash in on that antipathy but they were one of the sacrificial lambs (along with Perth, Adelaide, Hunter Mariners etc) at the end of the SL War.

Playing 50% of home games at Suncorp seems wise. I'm guessing they'll pick the games against other Qld teams (Broncos, Cowboys, Titans) along with those Sydney teams with a big following up there (eg, there are literally 1000s of St George fans in south Old).

Edited by Pottsy
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21 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

Talks of mergers and relocations are wide of the mark. Mergers have proven themselves to be fatal.

The Dragons are a basket case, with the Illawarra name almost lost, yet being the obvious permanent future for the club now the merger has happened.

Wests have an even bigger identity crisis and still neglect their obvious lifeline to the south west of Campbelltown to preserve an ageing Balmain brigade.

Northern Eagles… say nothing more.

Relocations of Sydney clubs is equally ludicrous. The clubs are established entities that each have at minimum 100k supporters of varying fandom. The key is to turn more of the “got the shirt” brigade into consistent live consumers.

In saying all that, if you had a fresh canvass, you wouldn’t have that many Sydney clubs in a new competition. So why on earth are people keen on diluting Bris/SE Qld even further once the Dolphins have arrived. 

And lastly, Northern Dolphins is not one for the purists, but, the name captures north of Brisbane, up to Sunshine Coast.

 

You're almost certainly right. What's interesting though is how the AFL has been able to successfully rescue failing Melbourne clubs by moving them out of state (eg, the Lions and the Swans). I went to a Brisbane Lions game at the Telstra Dome about 15 years ago and the majority of the supporters were Lions fans. When I asked the bloke next to me whether all these fans (there were thousands of them) had flown down from Old, he explained to me that they were all Fitzroy diehards who had been able to stick with the Lions by virtue of the fact that they were back in Melbourne once a fortnight anyway.

I'm not advocating relocating any current Sydney clubs but might there be potential to pair up potential new locations with traditional clubs that currently don't have a franchise (eg, Newtown Jets, Norths Bears) as well as those who might be minor partners in current joint ventures?

Again, I'm not advocating anything (it always annoys me when people who don't know the area suggest relocations, rebrands and mergers for my club) but it's an interesting question imo.

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1 hour ago, Pottsy said:

Basically, the Broncos were blamed for degrading the old Brisbane comp. The South Queensland Crushers were set up in the 90s partly to cash in on that antipathy but they were one of the sacrificial lambs (along with Perth, Adelaide, Hunter Mariners etc) at the end of the SL War.

Playing 50% of home games at Suncorp seems wise. I'm guessing they'll pick the games against other Qld teams (Broncos, Cowboys, Titans) along with those Sydney teams with a big following up there (eg, there are literally 1000s of St George fans in south Old).

The storm and warriors should also draw well in Brisbane.

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10 hours ago, Pottsy said:

You're almost certainly right. What's interesting though is how the AFL has been able to successfully rescue failing Melbourne clubs by moving them out of state (eg, the Lions and the Swans). I went to a Brisbane Lions game at the Telstra Dome about 15 years ago and the majority of the supporters were Lions fans. When I asked the bloke next to me whether all these fans (there were thousands of them) had flown down from Old, he explained to me that they were all Fitzroy diehards who had been able to stick with the Lions by virtue of the fact that they were back in Melbourne once a fortnight anyway.

I'm not advocating relocating any current Sydney clubs but might there be potential to pair up potential new locations with traditional clubs that currently don't have a franchise (eg, Newtown Jets, Norths Bears) as well as those who might be minor partners in current joint ventures?

Again, I'm not advocating anything (it always annoys me when people who don't know the area suggest relocations, rebrands and mergers for my club) but it's an interesting question imo.

The Perth Bears is the option that the WA govt and private interests are focusing on. 

Personally, I think the Bears are a better fit elsewhere like the Central Coast, which unfortunately is at best 4th in line of priority.

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11 hours ago, Anita Bath said:

Brisbane metro is a regional transit system. Redcliffe does not fall under Brisbane City Council. It is part of Moreton Bay council.

Brisbane encapsulates:

- City of Brisbane

- City of Ipswich

- Lockyer Valley Region

- Logan

- Moreton Bay Region

- Redland City

- Scenic Rim Region

- Somerset Region

 

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2 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

The Perth Bears is the option that the WA govt and private interests are focusing on. 

If WA Bears is the 18th franchise it must be owned in Perth, run from Perth, and play all its home games in Perth. Anything else risks the outcome being more North Melbourne than South Melbourne.

Leave it to Sydney clubs to decide whether to play Bears away fixtures at their home ground or NSO as part of an arrangement with North Sydney. Cronulla might keep theirs at Shark Park, Manly might move theirs from Brookvale. Could be the other way round, depending on which option were the most successful in each case.

Where are all these closet Bears fans north of the harbour anyway? Certainly not watching the NSW Cup. More likely to have been at the NSO women`s Fumble the other week.

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Sports Prophet - that list of "Brisbane" is a nonsense. Ask anyone who actually lives here - "Brisbane" is far more narrowly defined than that by anyone who lives here (like me). Ipswich??? Lockyer Valley??? 

The NRL/AFL made similar mistakes with respect to the "Gold Coast" - looked on a map and saw the council area is huge and covers a lot of places with a big and growing population. If only they'd asked anyone who has ever lived there they'd tell you there's no single identity at all within the region - Helensvale, Oxenford, Yatala etc have nothing at all in common with Mermaid Beach, Surfers etc.

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2 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

If WA Bears is the 18th franchise it must be owned in Perth, run from Perth, and play all its home games in Perth. Anything else risks the outcome being more North Melbourne than South Melbourne.

....

Where are all these closet Bears fans north of the harbour anyway? Certainly not watching the NSW Cup. More likely to have been at the NSO women`s Fumble the other week.

From early discussions it appears there is talk of shifting 2 home games to N Sydney, including a fixture against Manly annually.

....

Personally, I think WA are being sold a lemon. The Bears adds very little to their own bid. The are regurgitating N Syd Bears claims of 200k existing fans. The sporting fandom is a little different in Aus, so whilst I wouldn’t expect many to turn up to watch a reserve grade team running around in NSW Cup, I also dispute that just because the wider N Syd Leagues club operation has 200k “members”, this is not anywhere near the number of paying fans they would get week to week in N Syd.

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1 hour ago, DACS said:

Sports Prophet - that list of "Brisbane" is a nonsense. Ask anyone who actually lives here - "Brisbane" is far more narrowly defined than that by anyone who lives here (like me). Ipswich??? Lockyer Valley??? 

The NRL/AFL made similar mistakes with respect to the "Gold Coast" - looked on a map and saw the council area is huge and covers a lot of places with a big and growing population. If only they'd asked anyone who has ever lived there they'd tell you there's no single identity at all within the region - Helensvale, Oxenford, Yatala etc have nothing at all in common with Mermaid Beach, Surfers etc.

All of which are still Gold Coast right?

Brisbane Broncos will have a heap of fans in Logan and Ipswich. Whilst they may less identify with the name of Brisbane than say Logan or Ipswich, that has not dissuaded thousands of fans from those areas to support the Broncos.

I stand by my point that a club with operations based in Redcliffe can suitably call themselves North Brisbane and capture supporters north of Brisbane, up to Moreton Bay and beyond.

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You've missed the point entirely. The Gold Coast is a region nobody who lives there particularly identifies with. They are nominally in the 'Gold Coast' which is a council and a region. They are also part of Queensland, Australia and the world. That doesn't make people in most of those places identify with 'the Gold Coast' - they don't. They identify with their local communities. Which is why looking on a map and population stats and thinking you could plant a major sporting franchise there was and is stupid. Even worse, a major proportion of people on the Gold Coast have moved from interstate and wouldn't even identify as Queenslanders.

People in Ipswich, Toowoomba and the like do not identify at all with Brisbane, and support the Broncos because for years there was no other choice and the Queensland Cup had been devalued to a reasonable standard semi-pro competition.

You might as well say that all the Sydney rivalries are meaningless because they're all the same city. 

I don't think the 'Redcliffe' part of the name matters much.  They will be known as the Dolphins in the same way as the Sharks, Dragons etc are known by their nicknames.

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4 hours ago, DACS said:

You've missed the point entirely. The Gold Coast is a region nobody who lives there particularly identifies with. They are nominally in the 'Gold Coast' which is a council and a region. They are also part of Queensland, Australia and the world. That doesn't make people in most of those places identify with 'the Gold Coast' - they don't. They identify with their local communities. Which is why looking on a map and population stats and thinking you could plant a major sporting franchise there was and is stupid. Even worse, a major proportion of people on the Gold Coast have moved from interstate and wouldn't even identify as Queenslanders.

People in Ipswich, Toowoomba and the like do not identify at all with Brisbane, and support the Broncos because for years there was no other choice and the Queensland Cup had been devalued to a reasonable standard semi-pro competition.

You might as well say that all the Sydney rivalries are meaningless because they're all the same city. 

I don't think the 'Redcliffe' part of the name matters much.  They will be known as the Dolphins in the same way as the Sharks, Dragons etc are known by their nicknames.

I haven't missed anything.

Just because someone primarily identifies as English, doesn't stop them being and supporting Great Britain.

Similar to a resident in Redcliffe or somewhere else in the Moreton Bay region that may identify more with the local region (although I don’t expect kids to hold such a localised sense of identity), it doesn’t escape that the North Brisbane Dolphins (should that later become their name) are there to represent them as their local team.

In saying that, I do agree that the club would be known in conversation as the Dolphins. I just think North Brisbane Dolphins has a better roll off the tongue than Moreton Bay Dolphins or Redcliffe Dolphins and is more marketable as well.

Edited by Sports Prophet
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PVL seems less Pistol Pete and more Milky Bar Kid in his media rights negotiations. The social and cultural factors behind pro-Fumble establishment bias are not his fault. But the "rusted-on AFL States" remark in relation to WA indicates a shocking defeatism. He will be hoping the Dolphins can counter the growth of Fumble in SEQ.

He could have had more joy making the NRL on-field product stronger in the marketplace. Sadly, he`s even more clueless in this respect. On his watch, we`ve moved to 6-again and lateral turnovers, both of which make RL more regimented and repetitive. Moreover, he must be oblivious to the stifling effects of the paranoid fear-the-media style of refereeing.

One moment in the Sharks/Rabbitohs semi summed it up. Nicho Hynes took a short goal-line dropout and regathered. Ref called a knock-on. There was no knock-on, just a player claiming the ball on the ground, but NRL officials won`t tolerate that now. They want orthodoxy, nothing different or imaginative. When you take a goal-line dropout, just boot it long and let`s get back to the grind.

A conspiracy theorist might conclude that Fumble-loving News Corp began implementing a long-term plan to ruin RL on and off the field in the mid-90s. They knew AFL had nowhere to go outside Oz, hence it could only expand at the expense of RL in NSW and QLD.

Off the field, the SL war left the way open for the Swans and Lions. On the field, their journalists and commentators ratcheted up the pressure on officials to go knock-on crazy among other obsessions with obstructions and forward passes.

At this rate, AFL will be off and clear. Helter-skelter, unpredictable, ball pinging around everywhere, and rolling in money. NRL will be left in the dust, fans forced to stare at a screen while a bloke in a bunker checks all available angles for little bobbles.

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On 18/09/2022 at 13:20, Pulga said:

The Bulldogs relocation was a joke. I don't actually believe relocation would succeed at all with any club.

I’m coming round to the opinion of thinking that although not ideal relocations are a better proposition than mergers considering the number of away fixtures to be played in Sydney.

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2 hours ago, Tosh said:

I’m coming round to the opinion of thinking that although not ideal relocations are a better proposition than mergers considering the number of away fixtures to be played in Sydney.

But a proposition to what exactly? Why do any of the Sydney clubs need to be relocated?

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1 hour ago, Tosh said:

Because some are basket cases and play out of dilapidated out of date dumps.

Which clubs are you referring to? The latter part would suggest just Manly and Cronulla.

The only basket case I can think of really is Wests. They just need to accept that Campbeltown needs to be their permanent home. I don't think they need relocating.

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8 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

PVL seems less Pistol Pete and more Milky Bar Kid in his media rights negotiations. The social and cultural factors behind pro-Fumble establishment bias are not his fault. But the "rusted-on AFL States" remark in relation to WA indicates a shocking defeatism. He will be hoping the Dolphins can counter the growth of Fumble in SEQ.

He could have had more joy making the NRL on-field product stronger in the marketplace. Sadly, he`s even more clueless in this respect. On his watch, we`ve moved to 6-again and lateral turnovers, both of which make RL more regimented and repetitive. Moreover, he must be oblivious to the stifling effects of the paranoid fear-the-media style of refereeing.

One moment in the Sharks/Rabbitohs semi summed it up. Nicho Hynes took a short goal-line dropout and regathered. Ref called a knock-on. There was no knock-on, just a player claiming the ball on the ground, but NRL officials won`t tolerate that now. They want orthodoxy, nothing different or imaginative. When you take a goal-line dropout, just boot it long and let`s get back to the grind.

A conspiracy theorist might conclude that Fumble-loving News Corp began implementing a long-term plan to ruin RL on and off the field in the mid-90s. They knew AFL had nowhere to go outside Oz, hence it could only expand at the expense of RL in NSW and QLD.

Off the field, the SL war left the way open for the Swans and Lions. On the field, their journalists and commentators ratcheted up the pressure on officials to go knock-on crazy among other obsessions with obstructions and forward passes.

At this rate, AFL will be off and clear. Helter-skelter, unpredictable, ball pinging around everywhere, and rolling in money. NRL will be left in the dust, fans forced to stare at a screen while a bloke in a bunker checks all available angles for little bobbles.

It does appear to me that the NRL are caught between having either a game that is either inch perfect where each play is perfectly executed and on the other hand allowing some latitude when the ball hits the deck, which despite looking messy and being open to more controversy, allows play on and the unpredictability in play that often ensues. A situation our main rival avoids ( in the extreme ) by having no knock-ons, offside or  obstruction. 

Our referees seem to be caught up in this dualism, sometimes waving play-on or even ignoring marginal potential knock-ons but all too often I fear calling knock-on out of safety ( the avoidance of making a controversial call ) and letting the Captain decide through the use of the Captain`s Challenge. How often do we hear " you can challenge, you can challenge ! ". Which I`m sure wasn`t designed for that purpose, or certainly not as much as it is being used for.

As V`landy`s like to state ` we are in the entertainment business ` and I honestly believe that we in League have the potential, with a bit of judicious refereeing, in our game to provide a bit of that helter-skelter. That same helter-skelter fans find so appealing in fumbleball,  but whos` over the top nature may alternatively be found ridiculous to those not inside the cult. That`s not to mention though the same mad-cap nature that may well appeal to modern audiences. The broadcasters over here certainly seem to think so.

Ignore all but the most egregious knock-ons, get rid of the six-again for the charge-down and let`s see more kicks ( not kickers ) on the deck and get the head high stuff right out of the game and make it safer for the little blokes ( the exciting ones ) and we`ll have a game that combines nicely the toughness and skillfulness of League with the unpredictabilty of fumbleball, but without the circus act.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, The Rocket said:

 a game that combines nicely the toughness and skillfulness of League with the unpredictabilty of fumbleball, 

Agreed. AFL at one end of the football spectrum, NFL at the other. We fall somewhere between the two. With rational refereeing we get the best of both worlds, with irrational refereeing we sometimes fall between two stools. Up to the administrators to sort it, if the media will let them.

Speaking of stools, a Fumble-related post of yours in the parallel universe got me mixing and matching metaphors thus -

You can`t polish a ######.

You can put lipstick on a pig.

So why not put lipstick on a pig ######? Then fling it high and enjoy the fun as 36 madcap Fumblers chase after it. Unlike the standard version, it would at least be understandable why they don`t want to pick it up.

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40 minutes ago, unapologetic pedant said:

Agreed. AFL at one end of the football spectrum, NFL at the other. We fall somewhere between the two. With rational refereeing we get the best of both worlds,

Absolutely, we don`t have to be a game full of madcap moments but certainly a few more to break the monotony would be nice. It might even make the game more attractive to casuals instead of relying on us diehards.  Dare I say it but even union down here does it better than us in that regard although they have other problems which unfortunately for them don`t compensate.

56 minutes ago, unapologetic pedant said:

got me mixing and matching metaphors thus -

Yeah it was a beauty the post I think you`re referring to. According to the poster we might well have Foxtel over the barrel of a gun in our next broadcast negotiations. In that case I wonder what we are holding to their head. Given V`landy`s last effort, a gun that fires blank cheques.

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6 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

Which clubs are you referring to? The latter part would suggest just Manly and Cronulla.

The only basket case I can think of really is Wests. They just need to accept that Campbeltown needs to be their permanent home. I don't think they need relocating.

Manly for sure should have permanently relocated to the central coast but that’s not going to happen now because of all the money being spent on the redevelopment of brookvale oval and it’s COE facility.

West tigers are an absolute basket case of a club both on and off the field with an added identity crisis. For me this was a bizarre merger in the first place considering the geographical locations of both clubs within Sydney/metro Sydney region. Possible options of relocation for the tigers could be Perth which would see them be called the “western tigers” or “Perth western tigers” or even just stick with the current name “west tigers.”

Other basket case clubs include the dragons who need to permanently relocate to Wollongong and the bulldogs who for me should have originally merged with the western suburbs instead of the magpies merging with balmain and they could have been known as the western bulldogs playing out of a new stadium built in Liverpool.

As for the sharks the only issue for them is their ground as I believe they are a quite well run asset rich wealthy club but again personally I would have originally relocated the sharks to Perth at the end of the super league war.

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3 hours ago, Tosh said:

Manly for sure should have permanently relocated to the central coast but that’s not going to happen now because of all the money being spent on the redevelopment of brookvale oval and it’s COE facility.

West tigers are an absolute basket case of a club both on and off the field with an added identity crisis. For me this was a bizarre merger in the first place considering the geographical locations of both clubs within Sydney/metro Sydney region. Possible options of relocation for the tigers could be Perth which would see them be called the “western tigers” or “Perth western tigers” or even just stick with the current name “west tigers.”

Other basket case clubs include the dragons who need to permanently relocate to Wollongong and the bulldogs who for me should have originally merged with the western suburbs instead of the magpies merging with balmain and they could have been known as the western bulldogs playing out of a new stadium built in Liverpool.

As for the sharks the only issue for them is their ground as I believe they are a quite well run asset rich wealthy club but again personally I would have originally relocated the sharks to Perth at the end of the super league war.

Manly is the only club in the northern peninsula of Sydney. The NRL would be mad to relocate them.

Wests Tigers just need to permanently move to Campbeltown as one of the quickest growing population centres in Sydney. They may be a basket case, but they are an example of why mergers don’t work. Certainly same city mergers. Like Manly, the NRL would be mad to move them which would in turn risk ceding that entire territory to RU or AFL.

Dragons again don’t need to relocate, just permanently move to one of their existing homes.

Western Bulldogs... I will let @The Rocket or @unapologetic pedant respond to that one 😂 

Then you say the Sharks should have been moved in the 90s. So what would you have done for the 100k fans the club would be leaving behind in the Shire? The only Sydney club to own their own facility I might add and fast becoming one of Sydney’s blue chip residential markets and fast growing affluence? That would all be lost.

No relocations necessary outside Wests and Dragons making a permanent base in one of their existing homes.

Edited by Sports Prophet
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17 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

Manly is the only club in the northern peninsula of Sydney. The NRL would be mad to relocate them.

Wests Tigers just need to permanently move to Campbeltown as one of the quickest growing population centres in Sydney. They may be a basket case, but they are an example of why mergers don’t work. Certainly same city mergers. Like Manly, the NRL would be mad to move them which would in turn risk ceding that entire territory to RU or AFL.

Dragons again don’t need to relocate, just permanently move to one of their existing homes.

Western Bulldogs... I will let @The Rocket or @unapologetic pedant respond to that one 😂 

Then you say the Sharks should have been moved in the 90s. So what would you have done for the 100k fans the club would be leaving behind in the Shire? The only Sydney club to own their own facility I might add and fast becoming one of Sydney’s blue chip residential markets and fast growing affluence? That would all be lost.

No relocations necessary outside Wests and Dragons making a permanent base in one of their existing homes.

As you said elsewhere I noted : relocations, save your breath, ain`t going to happen.

Parra, Dogs and Wests, oops I mean Tigers, dominate that vast swathe across Western Sydney and Penrith might well be considered a completely different region. 

Souths and Easts, extremely wealthy clubs despite their small footprint, no need to go anywhere. Dragons to the `Gong and Sharks, they seem to be well run and why would you shift them anywhere unless they go broke. Leave well enough alone.

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1 hour ago, The Rocket said:

As you said elsewhere I noted : relocations, save your breath, ain`t going to happen.

Parra, Dogs and Wests, oops I mean Tigers, dominate that vast swathe across Western Sydney and Penrith might well be considered a completely different region. 

Souths and Easts, extremely wealthy clubs despite their small footprint, no need to go anywhere. Dragons to the `Gong and Sharks, they seem to be well run and why would you shift them anywhere unless they go broke. Leave well enough alone.

You don’t fancy the Western Bulldogs idea???

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On 16/09/2022 at 23:49, Tosh said:

How are the dolphins being received in Brisbane?

Do you think they will achieve similar crowds to what the crushers got in their 1st season playing in Brisbane?

Well based on the pub / party chats had with friends and family and reading other website / FB pages I think they are being very well received.  Coming in at a time when the Broncos brand is tarnished is certainly helping with some of those disillusioned or disgruntled Bronco fans keen to look at other options.

Crowd wise I can see them getting 20-25K per game at Suncorp for their first couple of games.  Results will play a role after that.   Don't need to be winning just competitive as if having 40+ put on them becomes the norm then the crowd support wavers.  

The Redcliffe Dolphins feature in this weekend's Grand Final of the Qld Cup and the State U/20's....so doing something right up there!   

Honestly think they will do well and maybe even feature in a GF before the end of the current decade.  

On a side note,  fellow satellite city.. Penrith 😀 ...are in with a chance to grab 4 club premierships this year...NRL,  NSW Cup and u/20s. Have already secured the u/18 premiership.

Could be Redcliffe in 2032 😉

 

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9 hours ago, Tosh said:

West tigers are an absolute basket case 

I don`t believe any of the Sydney clubs is a basket case. Each has a particular portfolio of strengths. 

6 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

Wests Tigers just need to permanently move to Campbeltown 

Western Suburbs "moved" to Campbelltown before when they were the Magpies. What would a second "move" involve, other than playing all their home games in a not exactly luxurious arena. The most profitable part of their business is the Leagues club in Ashfield. Their new centre of excellence is in Concord. And so long as there are plenty of people in Balmain jerseys wherever they play games, there`s no reason to downplay that component of the merged club. 

9 hours ago, Tosh said:

As for the sharks the only issue for them is their ground as I believe they are a quite well run asset rich wealthy club but again personally I would have originally relocated the sharks to Perth at the end of the super league war.

There was a survey of NRL clubs and their identifiable catchment areas measuring pro rata local engagement and resonance. This was with the sport of Rugby League not just the NRL. The Sutherland Shire came top. It`s no surprise, if you look at the Cronulla junior league which now includes a number of teams from outside the area in some grades.

The Sharks could become a very wealthy organisation in the future. Maybe with too much emphasis on off-field money-making over the football, but that`s Sydney RL.

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