Teams finishing 5th or 6th SHOULD NOT have a chance to win SL

[BatleyFanAndy]

1 minute ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

So you would scrap the Super League Grand Final?

Isn’t that the big money spinner though and popular with the TV paymaster?

I’m not we can just remove it from the calendar without it really hurting the sport revenue wise. 

Is it really as popular as it once was though? I'm not sure it is and that's remarked upon every year the numbers decrease. I havent watched it for years and most of my mates have't. We used to go to it when it seemed a bigger event but it just started getting blah.

Without the grand final you'd have the Super 8's to broadcast and the Million Pound Game which when it's so meaningful with the potential inclusion of Super League side V Super League side like Salford and HKR did, will bring in spectators.

[Dave T]

Just now, Mattrhino said:

Really!? 

Most sports fans have at least some knowledge of play-off structures from NFL, NBA etc... well really any sport which isn't soccer has play-offs to determine the winner.

We as a sport have had play-offs to determine the championship for most of our history. Its only when we tried to emulate soccer in the 70's that we changed it.

Arguments like that positioned by Meast are nonsense. It seems odd that I've enevr had to explain that to eanyone ever in my life. 

People understand playoffs. 

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, BatleyFanAndy said:

Is it really as popular as it once was though? I'm not sure it is and that's remarked upon every year the numbers decrease. I havent watched it for years and most of my mates have't. We used to go to it when it seemed a bigger event but it just started getting blah.

Without the grand final you'd have the Super 8's to broadcast and the Million Pound Game which when it's so meaningful with the potential inclusion of Super League side V Super League side like Salford and HKR did, will bring in spectators.

Why would you have a million pound game though?  Surely if you finish higher in the table you shouldn't have to play off for relegation? 

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, BatleyFanAndy said:

Without the grand final you'd have the Super 8's to broadcast and the Million Pound Game which when it's so meaningful with the potential inclusion of Super League side V Super League side like Salford and HKR did, will bring in spectators.

So a below average attendance in East Hull is better for bringing in spectators than the second highest (or this years case probably highest) attended domestic RL game? Go figure I suppose...

[Mattrhino]

7 hours ago, paul hicks said:

in super league terms yes, it's only been done twice but the game did exist before 1998.  in 1973 a team won from 8th, and nobody complained indeed the losing team's fans stayed to applaud the winners.

1973 leeds were beaten by 8th place Dewsbury.

playoffs have been around since 1907 yet people want to get rid of them because boo hoo they don't think it's fair. well get over it life's not fair either. it's a great system indeed good enough for the NRL so get over it.

Exactly! it is our history, but because people like soccer aswell means we should do everything soccer does.

 

[Tommygilf]

Just now, Mattrhino said:

Exactly! it is our history, but because people like soccer aswell means we should do everything soccer does.

 

It is amazing how many people who claim to not like soccer (I do its great) also seem to get either all or most of their opinions from that code. Spontaneous ingenuity?

[BatleyFanAndy]

3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Why would you have a million pound game though?  Surely if you finish higher in the table you shouldn't have to play off for relegation? 

Middle 8s were my second choice and only to argue against the 'teams from Championship not ready' argument.

I'd go for automatic promotion and relegation preferably with second place playoff.

[Gerrumonside ref]

2 minutes ago, BatleyFanAndy said:

Is it really as popular as it once was though? I'm not sure it is and that's remarked upon every year the numbers decrease. I havent watched it for years and most of my mates have't. We used to go to it when it seemed a bigger event but it just started getting blah.

Without the grand final you'd have the Super 8's to broadcast and the Million Pound Game which when it's so meaningful with the potential inclusion of Super League side V Super League side like Salford and HKR did, will bring in spectators.

I’d need to see the numbers before I’d accept the Super League Grand Final is in full on decline to the point of scrapping it tbh.

I am interested in what happens below Super League level for sure and there’s been some real stories in the last few years like the one you mention and London pipping Toronto.

But we’re probably in the minority here and I deffo think the broadcasters will want the best teams possible, playing in the biggest game possible as much of the time to bring in for them the audience share they are looking for.

[LEEDSLADGONE SOUTH]

Nothing wrong with the system. It’s the same old entitled Wiganers losing and Saints fans papping themselves and getting the excuses in early. 
 

[Gerrumonside ref]

1 minute ago, LEEDSLADGONE SOUTH said:

Nothing wrong with the system. It’s the same old entitled Wiganers losing and Saints fans papping themselves and getting the excuses in early. 
 

Challenge accepted 

[Mattrhino]

1 hour ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

I can understand this perspective given the length of our regular season campaign is massive.

I know historically play off systems arose in different places, but let’s face it most sports are trying to ape the success the NFL has had with its playoff and Super Bowl structure.

I think part of the reason it works so well is that 32 teams playing 17 games is not exhaustive and therefore everyone is fully geared up for the playoffs and the chance to play in the ‘big one’.

We (and plenty of other sports) have kinda bolted on a playoff format to our league campaign that historically has nearly always bestowed the the title of champions to the end of season team in first place.

Super Bowl started in the late 1960's by that time we had play offs for about 60 years

[Gerrumonside ref]

1 minute ago, Mattrhino said:

Super Bowl started in the late 1960's by that time we had play offs for about 60 years

Yes I agree that the play off system was not invented by the NFL as I stated in my post tbf.

But it is their success that everybody is trying to copy now.

[BatleyFanAndy]

8 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

I’d need to see the numbers before I’d accept the Super League Grand Final is in full on decline to the point of scrapping it tbh.

I am interested in what happens below Super League level for sure and there’s been some real stories in the last few years like the one you mention and London pipping Toronto.

But we’re probably in the minority here and I deffo think the broadcasters will want the best teams possible, playing in the biggest game possible as much of the time to bring in for them the audience share they are looking for.

https://www.loverugbyleague.com/post/why-the-grand-final-crowd-gives-rugby-league-chance-to-reset/

Obviously the last one was still in pandemic but from 2015 the numbers are fairly decreasing.

[Damien]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

Genuine question, what exactly has been detrimented as a direct result of the Grand Final (and presumably play offs by extension?)

Memberships are pretty solid across the board for most clubs (which has other associated issues but doesn't show regular season game decline).

The Cup? Maybe, but most knockout cups across the board have declined across most sports. Additionally, Magic Weekend is another factor, and perhaps more relevant, that is constantly mentioned in relation to the decline of the cup.

The League Leaders? Only St Helens in recent memory have disrespected that honour (and they haven't done since).

 

46 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

If the league season were shorter, but there were more trophies on offer in terms of Cup(s) would that be more satisfying from a fan perspective?

It probably would for me.

I'm just going to answer you both together as my answer is tied to you both really.

I have lived under both systems and as I said I love the Grand Final as an occasion and spectacle. I like the play offs and have witnessed some great games. However, they are far from where they should be in terms of attendances and seem to have failed to capture fans attention. They certainly are never the big events they should be. Other than that I'm struggling for the benefits.

Regular season games have without doubt been affected. What we have now is the opposite of every match mattering and teams play accordingly. Chris22 said on the last page that as a Saints fan he doesn't get excited by wins or despondent by defeats because they mean little. I feel the same. That is a major problem when it affects 95% of the season and shouldn't be the case. I am lucky enough to remember titanic league battles where every game did count and in a number of years we had very close leagues where we even had 2 and 3 way ties where the league was decided by points difference.

At the dawn of Super League Maurice Lindsay made a conscious decision to undermine the Challenge Cup and make it less important to elevate Super League, initially becoming a semi pre-season competition. The introduction of the Grand Final was a continuation of this. The Challenge Cup has without doubt declined as SL has grown. This was actively accelerated by the administration of the time, the effects we still see today.

RL used to have the Premiership Trophy, also at Old Trafford, for the top 8 which regularly attracted 35k or so. This is what the Grand Final basically replaced, moving to night-time with the league champions rights tagged on to raise its importance. If that had simply moved to a night game with the same razzamatazz who knows, we may have had the best of both worlds. 

Memberships and attendances are a little like comparing apples and pears. The season ticket culture didn't prevail, and people paid and attended big matches like they don't now. There was also a lot more games. Teams also now play in vastly superior grounds, practically every club has a new or revamped ground so crowds now should be better. Also considering how other sports attendances like Football and RU have grown I'm of the opinion that this growth isn't because of a Grand Final.

Plenty of teams don't go all out for the LLS. It's a long time since I saw my team make a real effort, we again saw that this season and certainly lost games we could have won by resting players even when the LLS was on the line. Teams may not openly disrespect it, I can't even think of what you allude to with Saints, but it is just not important, certainly not to the top clubs.

So essentially the sport has put its eggs all in one basket for one game. There is not enough variety and there are other ways to keep a season interesting than giving half the league a chance of being league champions at the end of 27 games. That is before you even get to things like additional cups like the Regal Trophy or mid-season internationals. Just my take and I can well understand the views of those that think differently.

[Gerrumonside ref]

1 minute ago, BatleyFanAndy said:

https://www.loverugbyleague.com/post/why-the-grand-final-crowd-gives-rugby-league-chance-to-reset/

Obviously the last one was still in pandemic but from 2015 the numbers are fairly decreasing.

I don’t read the trend so depressingly although I can see your argument.

It has dropped from 77k to two subsequent 64k finals and then a couple of anomalous years.

Lets see what happens over the next few years of fairly normal circumstances.

Certainly though we can’t be complacent as you point out.

 

[Moove]

Love the play offs, love the Grand Final. Win or lose you can't beat the drama, pressure, elation and heart break. If we can't fill the grounds or maximise commercial opportunities that's on us as a sport not the system.

That said, in a 12 team league I think top five offers a better balance in terms of the work you need to do to qualify. I'd also like to see final positions in the league rewarded better financially. £100k prize money for a 27 round season is pathetic for a professional sport and if a team finishes high enough for a home tie they should get the financial benefits which come with that rather than having to pool the gate receipts. A decent trophy wouldn't go a miss either.

Although as an apparently 'entitled Saints fan' presumably I'll completely change my mind at 3pm if we lose today 

[Gerrumonside ref]

9 minutes ago, Damien said:

 

I'm just going to answer you both together as my answer is tied to you both really.

I have lived under both systems and as I said I love the Grand Final as an occasion and spectacle. I like the play offs and have witnessed some great games. However, they are far from where they should be in terms of attendances and seem to have failed to capture fans attention. They certainly are never the big events they should be. Other than that I'm struggling for the benefits.

Regular season games have without doubt been affected. What we have now is the opposite of every match mattering and teams play accordingly. Chris22 said on the last page that as a Saints fan he doesn't get excited by wins or despondent by defeats because they mean little. I feel the same. That is a major problem when it affects 95% of the season and shouldn't be the case. I am lucky enough to remember titanic league battles where every game did count and in a number of years we had very close leagues where we even had 2 and 3 way ties where the league was decided by points difference.

At the dawn of Super League Maurice Lindsay made a conscious decision to undermine the Challenge Cup and make it less important to elevate Super League, initially becoming a semi pre-season competition. The introduction of the Grand Final was a continuation of this. The Challenge Cup has without doubt declined as SL has grown. This was actively accelerated by the administration of the time, the effects we still see today.

RL used to have the Premiership Trophy, also at Old Trafford, for the top 8 which regularly attracted 35k or so. This is what the Grand Final basically replaced, moving to night-time with the league champions rights tagged on to raise its importance. If that had simply moved to a night game with the same razzamatazz who knows, we may have had the best of both worlds. 

Memberships and attendances are a little like comparing apples and pears. The season ticket culture didn't prevail, and people paid and attended big matches like they don't now. There was also a lot more games. Teams also now play in vastly superior grounds, practically every club has a new or revamped ground so crowds now should be better. Also considering how other sports attendances like Football and RU have grown I'm of the opinion that this growth isn't because of a Grand Final.

Plenty of teams don't go all out for the LLS. It's a long time since I saw my team make a real effort, we again saw that this season and certainly lost games we could have won by resting players even when the LLS was on the line. Teams may not openly disrespect it, I can't even think of what you allude to with Saints, but it is just not important, certainly not to the top clubs.

So essentially the sport has put its eggs all in one basket for one game. There is not enough variety and there are other ways to keep a season interesting than giving half the league a chance of being league champions at the end of 27 games. That is before you even get to things like additional cups like the Regal Trophy or mid-season internationals. Just my take and I can well understand the views of those that think differently.

I’m an old fart too and agree with your analysis of the state of play and the history preceding the Grand Final.

 

Edited September 17, 2022 by Gerrumonside ref

[Damien]

1 minute ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

I’m an old fart too and agree with your analysis of the state of play and the history preceding the Grand Final.

I gave you a like but would have preferred it more without the too 

[Tommygilf]

10 minutes ago, Damien said:

 

I'm just going to answer you both together as my answer is tied to you both really.

I have lived under both systems and as I said I love the Grand Final as an occasion and spectacle. I like the play offs and have witnessed some great games. However, they are far from where they should be in terms of attendances and seem to have failed to capture fans attention. They certainly are never the big events they should be. Other than that I'm struggling for the benefits.

Regular season games have without doubt been affected. What we have now is the opposite of every match mattering and teams play accordingly. Chris22 said on the last page that as a Saints fan he doesn't get excited by wins or despondent by defeats because they mean little. I feel the same. That is a major problem when it affects 95% of the season and shouldn't be the case. I am lucky enough to remember titanic league battles where every game did count and in a number of years we had very close leagues where we even had 2 and 3 way ties where the league was decided by points difference.

At the dawn of Super League Maurice Lindsay made a conscious decision to undermine the Challenge Cup and make it less important to elevate Super League, initially becoming a semi pre-season competition. The introduction of the Grand Final was a continuation of this. The Challenge Cup has without doubt declined as SL has grown. This was actively accelerated by the administration of the time, the effects we still see today.

RL used to have the Premiership Trophy, also at Old Trafford, for the top 8 which regularly attracted 35k or so. This is what the Grand Final basically replaced, moving to night-time with the league champions rights tagged on to raise its importance. If that had simply moved to a night game with the same razzamatazz who knows, we may have had the best of both worlds. 

Memberships and attendances are a little like comparing apples and pears. The season ticket culture didn't prevail, and people paid and attended big matches like they don't now. There was also a lot more games. Teams also now play in vastly superior grounds, practically every club has a new or revamped ground so crowds now should be better. Also considering how other sports attendances like Football and RU have grown I'm of the opinion that this growth isn't because of a Grand Final.

Plenty of teams don't go all out for the LLS. It's a long time since I saw my team make a real effort, we again saw that this season and certainly lost games we could have won by resting players even when the LLS was on the line. Teams may not openly disrespect it, I can't even think of what you allude to with Saints, but it is just not important, certainly not to the top clubs.

So essentially the sport has put its eggs all in one basket for one game. There is not enough variety and there are other ways to keep a season interesting than giving half the league a chance of being league champions at the end of 27 games. That is before you even get to things like additional cups like the Regal Trophy or mid-season internationals. Just my take and I can well understand the views of those that think differently.

I get what you are saying, but in terms of detriment caused by the Grand Final and play offs, it seems the main contender is the Challenge Cup by your assessment?

I think your argument is compelling, but is largely ignorant of outside factors and/or places far too great a weight on the Grand Final.

I'm happy to accept it is personal preference. 

*Saints in 2018 was where the didn't celebrate their LLS win (their only silverware that year) and were soundly humbled.

[Gomersall]

1 hour ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

We (and plenty of other sports) have kinda bolted on a playoff format to our league campaign that historically has nearly always bestowed the the title of champions to the end of season team in first place.

Have we? 

[Damien]

28 minutes ago, Mattrhino said:

Exactly! it is our history, but because people like soccer aswell means we should do everything soccer does.

It was our history when we had Yorkshire and Lancashire leagues and teams played those from their own county more often. The moment we went to a divisional structure they were scrapped.

[Gomersall]

8 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

I’m an old fart too and agree with your analysis of the state of play and the history preceding the Grand Final.

 

Historically RL has had more play off seasons champions than first past the post champions.

[wiganermike]

Some people obviously aren't happy that a team that finished 5th out of 12 is in the GF with a shot at being champions and could be playing a team that finished 6th out of 12 to decide it. Whilst I agree that 5th v 6th in the GF (if it happens) would make the regular season and the effort required to finish at the top of the table appear to have less value or point to it Leeds deservedly beat us last night so they earned and deserve their place in the GF. The same will be true of Salford should they beat Saints. We finished 2nd out of 12 over the regular season and should have been capable of beating the 5th placed team, we weren't so our season is done, such things happen sometimes.

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Gomersall said:

Historically RL has had more play off seasons champions than first past the post champions.

I don't think that is a compelling argument. I think it is useful of somebody is complaining that the Grand Final is rubbish because it isn't traditional,  but that isn't generally the point people are making. 

As per my original post,  there is no right or wrong,  it's pure preference.  There isn't a compelling argument that will make Damien change his mind and think it is the best way to find champions,  and that's fine,  people have their own preferences. 

[Damien]

1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

I get what you are saying, but in terms of detriment caused by the Grand Final and play offs, it seems the main contender is the Challenge Cup by your assessment?

I think your argument is compelling, but is largely ignorant of outside factors and/or places far too great a weight on the Grand Final.

I'm happy to accept it is personal preference. 

*Saints in 2018 was where the didn't celebrate their LLS win (their only silverware that year) and were soundly humbled.

No, for me the main detriment are the regular league games themselves and by association much of the season. The play offs and Grand Final are directly the cause of that.

The Challenge Cup yes too, and Lindsay is on record as saying what I said that, but I appreciate the switch to summer didn't help there too (as with other things in hindsight). We have also in effect gone from 3 competitions that mattered, in the League, Challenge Cup and Premiership Trophy to just 2 (with one of those majorly declining too).