HIA and the GF

[LeeF]

 

Edited September 18, 2022 by LeeF

[Chrispmartha]

Both Sezer and Gannon out of the GF due to concussion protocols 

[Red Willow]

Why just the final, we saw the impact of Salford losing Brodie Croft and the Ackers. 

Why just head injuries should we wait for other injuries caused by foul play too?

If the expects say 11 days then the player welfare is the paramount.

It happens all season, and we all know Saints have had to cope with such adversity during this season

 

[paul hicks]

17 hours ago, LeeF said:

Bearing in mind the current known issues surrounding concussion within the game on what sound scientific basis are you recommending 7 days?

I'm recommending going back to last season's protocols. i have not read anywhere that the change was based on scientific reasons.

mind you i have not looked everywhere either

[LeeF]

21 minutes ago, paul hicks said:

I'm recommending going back to last season's protocols. i have not read anywhere that the change was based on scientific reasons.

mind you i have not looked everywhere either

So they just changed it for “the fun of it”? Do you not think that there would have been some serious consideration and discussion before changing the protocols? Just because you haven’t read anything isn’t a reason to go back. 

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

2 hours ago, Anita Bath said:

I havent demanded a reduction to 7, I have asked for the scientific evidence (strong supporting case) for 11. Lets see if there is any.

11 days is quite short based on the NHS guidelines to not to play contact sport for 3 weeks after suffering concussion. 

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/head-injury-and-concussion/

The other code has a minimum 19 days (for adults) return to play. 

[redjonn]

I understand the arguments for the HIA protocol. What concerned me more is the prevalence of late hits on the kicker in the game, as distinct from putting pressure on the kicker.

In the Wigan/Leeds play off game their were at least x3 incidents of the Leeds kicker being hit with a tackle, that was marginally late - I say marginal late as the kicker still got his kick away and so the tackle hit it must have been after the kick, i.e. the ball left the player.

In non of those incidents did the ref penalise. If he had I am sure Bateman or any other player would not have been looking to put a big hit on the kicker.  It was the intent of putting a big hit on the kicker that was the problem.  Yep he got the tackle wrong but his intent was clearly to put a big tackle hit on the kicker.

The underlying problem was the ref didn't take seriously the earlier hits on the kickers.  It happens very frequently in a lot of games.  Given the discussion about importance of HIA and knowing that its not just direct hits to the head I can not fathom the lack of protection to kickers with ref reluctance to penalise.  For me if the earlier had been treated more seriously, even by ref speaking to players about such.

Given the other incidents it must of been part of Wigan's game plan to put max pressure on kickers (of course not with intention of foul play) but as I say the earlier hits came after the kick. One can argue its not possible to stop the tackle once the ball is kicked. Yet the other incident where Austin got pressure and the ball was fairly knocked down putting Leeds under pressure showed that putting max pressure on the kicker doesn't need a big tackle hit.

[Anita Bath]

7 hours ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

11 days is quite short based on the NHS guidelines to not to play contact sport for 3 weeks after suffering concussion. 

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/head-injury-and-concussion/

The other code has a minimum 19 days (for adults) return to play. 

Precisely, which adds to my point about why 11? 

[JohnM]

7 hours ago, redjonn said:

I understand the arguments for the HIA protocol. What concerned me more is the prevalence of late hits on the kicker in the game, as distinct from putting pressure on the kicker.

In the Wigan/Leeds play off game their were at least x3 incidents of the Leeds kicker being hit with a tackle, that was marginally late - I say marginal late as the kicker still got his kick away and so the tackle hit it must have been after the kick, i.e. the ball left the player.

In non of those incidents did the ref penalise. If he had I am sure Bateman or any other player would not have been looking to put a big hit on the kicker.  It was the intent of putting a big hit on the kicker that was the problem.  Yep he got the tackle wrong but his intent was clearly to put a big tackle hit on the kicker.

The underlying problem was the ref didn't take seriously the earlier hits on the kickers.  It happens very frequently in a lot of games.  Given the discussion about importance of HIA and knowing that its not just direct hits to the head I can not fathom the lack of protection to kickers with ref reluctance to penalise.  For me if the earlier had been treated more seriously, even by ref speaking to players about such.

Given the other incidents it must of been part of Wigan's game plan to put max pressure on kickers (of course not with intention of foul play) but as I say the earlier hits came after the kick. One can argue its not possible to stop the tackle once the ball is kicked. Yet the other incident where Austin got pressure and the ball was fairly knocked down putting Leeds under pressure showed that putting max pressure on the kicker doesn't need a big tackle hit.

must of been part of Wigan's game plan to put max pressure on kickers.

Are you saying that you think that, if true, is something only Wigan do?  Not Leeds or anyone else? 

 

 

 

 

[gingerjon]

8 hours ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

The other code has a minimum 19 days (for adults) return to play. 

I can't see anything that says it's not 12 - which they introduced earlier this year, increasing from 7.

Do you have a link? It may be my bad googling.

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

26 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I can't see anything that says it's not 12 - which they introduced earlier this year, increasing from 7.

Do you have a link? It may be my bad googling.

I've got a pdf from 2021, although odd that length has decreased? 

Edited September 18, 2022 by Les Tonks Sidestep

[yipyee]

On 17/09/2022 at 18:30, Damien said:

No chance as it extends an already crammed season and eats into the international window. I don't think a 2 week delay is good from a build up point of view either.

The NFL have a 2 week build up to the super bowl and that is the most watched league final on the planet..

It does make sense to allow both teams to try to get their best players fit for the final spectacle of the season.

[Damien]

4 minutes ago, yipyee said:

The NFL have a 2 week build up to the super bowl and that is the most watched league final on the planet..

It does make sense to allow both teams to try to get their best players fit for the final spectacle of the season.

The Champions League final is watched by more people than the Super Bowl. Even the FA Cup is. I'm also fairly certain that a 2 week build up isn't the reason why the Super Bowl is popular. I'm also even more certain than a 2 week build up will make little difference to the popularity of the SL final.

[yipyee]

1 minute ago, Damien said:

The Champions League final is watched by more people than the Super Bowl. Even the FA Cup is. I'm also fairly certain that a 2 week build up isn't the reason why the Super Bowl is popular. I'm also even more certain than a 2 week build up will make little difference to the popularity of the SL final.

The champions league and FA cup are not leagues, (contray to the title) also the super bowl is the biggest sporting event for a league final.

I was saying that 2 weeks wouldn't have a negative impact as the post I was responding to suggested...

In the 2 weeks to the superbowl there is a host of events including an all-stars game along with award ceremonies including additions to the hall of fame followed by a full week media build up. SL does this but trys to cram it all into one week, and the all stars team doesn't actually play anyone.

[Damien]

6 minutes ago, yipyee said:

The champions league and FA cup are not leagues, (contray to the title) also the super bowl is the biggest sporting event for a league final.

I was saying that 2 weeks wouldn't have a negative impact as the post I was responding to suggested...

In the 2 weeks to the superbowl there is a host of events including an all-stars game along with award ceremonies including additions to the hall of fame followed by a full week media build up. SL does this but trys to cram it all into one week, and the all stars team doesn't actually play anyone.

The Champions League is a similar structure to what we see in the NFL. Groups and knockout. Anyhow if you want to selectively choose finals to suit your argument that's fine, its irrelevant really.

I think you are comparing apples and pears. SL is not the NFL with blanket media coverage, I don't think I have ever seen any of these things you say SL crams into its build up week on mainstream media. The All Stars wouldn't play anyone even with a 2 week build up. I personally can't see what difference another week would make, and as I said I'd prefer an extra international game and not eat into that window, but I'm happy to leave it there as its all just opinion. I can see where you are coming from but just disagree. 

[yipyee]

8 minutes ago, Damien said:

The Champions League is a similar structure to what we see in the NFL. Groups and knockout. Anyhow if you want to selectively choose finals to suit your argument that's fine, its irrelevant really.

I think you are comparing apples and pears. SL is not the NFL with blanket media coverage, I don't think I have ever seen any of these things you say SL crams into its build up week on mainstream media. The All Stars wouldn't play anyone even with a 2 week build up. I personally can't see what difference another week would make, and as I said I'd prefer an extra international game and not eat into that window, but I'm happy to leave it there as its all just opinion. I can see where you are coming from but just disagree. 

Yeah, the only point for 2 weeks is to get players fit and allow build up. SL builds up for one week, the awards on Monday have been postponed but still as part of the final week build up. The all stars game is like the silly mid season test which is not a full England international so this happens anyway, just at a different time.

My main point which is getting lost is that a 2 week build up won't do any harm and would allow for players to recover from the semis. Seeing as most of the players playing in the final won't play for England at the world cup its not really an issue but as you say its all just opinion.

[Odsal Outlaw]

I actually think the idea of a two week build up for the final is a good one, could allow the event to really build, and the RFL/SL could make great use of the extra time. Maybe even do an international / PMXIII style game in.

And the HIA benefit is good, such a shame for a player to miss a GF thru an enforced layoff

[bobbruce]

23 hours ago, Damien said:

The Champions League final is watched by more people than the Super Bowl. Even the FA Cup is. I'm also fairly certain that a 2 week build up isn't the reason why the Super Bowl is popular. I'm also even more certain than a 2 week build up will make little difference to the popularity of the SL final.

And they both have an even longer build up. I’m not saying it’s the answer but it’s a discussion the game needs to have along with 18th and 19th man substitutions to stop foul play rewarding the side committing it. 

[UTK]

On 18/09/2022 at 21:06, Red Willow said:

Why just the final, we saw the impact of Salford losing Brodie Croft and the Ackers. 

Why just head injuries should we wait for other injuries caused by foul play too?

If the expects say 11 days then the player welfare is the paramount.

It happens all season, and we all know Saints have had to cope with such adversity during this season

 

Head injuries are different because the stand down is mandatory, there is nothing a player can do to make themselves available for the next game.

Players with other injuries can often continue playing with pain/physical detriment often accompanied by painkilling needles. Campbell Graham is currently playing the NRL finals with a broken rib, Cooper Cronk famously played the 2018 NRL Grand Final with a broken scapula - head injuries are in an entire different realm to all other injuries for this reason.

[gingerjon]

On 18/09/2022 at 23:02, Odsal Outlaw said:

I actually think the idea of a two week build up for the final is a good one, could allow the event to really build, and the RFL/SL could make great use of the extra time. Maybe even do an international / PMXIII style game in.

And the HIA benefit is good, such a shame for a player to miss a GF thru an enforced layoff

The argument against it because of season length is sound. At the minute, I don't see any way round that given how many games are squeezed into the season.

If we did have a weekend gap then setting the season up so the Women's Grand Final and second tier Grand Final (and whatever else we end up having that requires a league final) were on the 'blank' weekend would be good and ensure the domestic season finishes with the SL Grand Final.

[Anita Bath]

On 18/09/2022 at 16:28, gingerjon said:

Professor Ben Jones, who seems to the RFL's lead contact on this, is easily contactable.

You could ask him.

Done….still waiting for a reply.

[mrfranco]

On 18/09/2022 at 08:16, Leyther_Matt said:

It is still a pain in the proverbial to get coaches booked etc mind the state of trains in this . The week in between could be used as a charm offensive with players/coaches doing stuff, appear on game shows or whatever. 

And play the Championship GF/MPG in that empty week

[mrfranco]

On 18/09/2022 at 12:06, Red Willow said:

Why just the final, we saw of Salford losing Brodie and the Ackers. 

Why just head injuries should we wait for other injuries caused by foul play too?

If the expects say 11 days then the player is the paramount.

It happens all season, and we all know Saints have had to cope with such during this season

 

Why just the final? Cos it's the biggest game in the domestic calendar and if we can make a small change to keep more of the best players (best in that they are first choice for the top two teams) available, why wouldn't we?
 

Why just head injuries? Cos it's a fixed 11-day timetable imposed for health purposes and by simply delaying the GF one week we can allow those players to play.

A week off also leaves space for the Championship GF to take centre stage, allows an extra week of ticket sales to people who now know the grand finalists and an extra week of promotional activities by the two teams.

[redjonn]

On 18/09/2022 at 21:16, JohnM said:

must of been part of Wigan's game plan to put max pressure on kickers.

Are you saying that you think that, if true, is something only Wigan do?  Not Leeds or anyone else? 

 

 

 

 

Sorry for late response - not been well.

Nope not only Wigan but all teams will as part of a game plan at some times.  In this game it seemed clear that Wigan were keen to  pressurise the kicker with strong tackles. No way am I saying that any other team hasn't in some games. If the ref clamps down early and like they did earlier in season then the nature of the tackles lessen.   Lets be honest the harder the hit the more likely you think you are going to worry the kicker and hence disrupt the kicker going forward.

[Agbrigg]

I think the suggested 14 day gap not only benefits HIA , plus some other points made by contributors to this thread. Let's not forget possible disciplinary suspensions. It would give you at least 7 appeal of appeals, no problem