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Sat 24th Sept: SLGF: St Helens v Leeds Rhinos KO 18:00 (Sky)


Who will win?  

84 members have voted

  1. 1. Who will win?

    • St Helens by 13 points or more
      13
    • St Helens by 7 to 12 points
      24
    • St Helens by 1 to 6 points
      5
    • Leeds Rhinos by 1 to 6 points
      26
    • Leeds Rhinos by 7 to 12 points
      15
    • Leeds Rhinos by 13 points or more
      1

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  • Poll closed on 24/09/22 at 17:30

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7 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Maybe.  But having a second chance is surely an advantage as well?

I think it was a huge advantage and is often overlooked. The second chance meant a team had to have two off days not to make the Grand Final.

Just as importantly the 1 v 2 match benefitted the loser as it got them ready for play off rugby and they invariably still made the final. Now they go in cold with no 2nd chance against a team that already has a week of play off intensity rugby under their belt.

Edited by Damien
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12 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Maybe.  But having a second chance is surely an advantage as well?

I understand your point but I am not sure. 

This year Wigan had to beat a team in fifth at home, who had had a tough game in France the week before and had lost players.

Previously they would have had to play a hard game at St Helens, then having probably lost, played Leeds on more equal terms with players possibly suspended or injured. 

I think Wigan fans may like to think it is harder to excuse their failure to reach the final this year. 

Edited by Niels
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1 hour ago, Damien said:

In the first 12 years we never had a team from below 3rd get to the Grand Final because the play off system better rewarded league placings and was much more difficult for those finishing lower.

Maybe, but that's not really my point about teams from 5th getting there, more the gulf between 1st and 5th to begin with. 

Two examples from about 20 years ago, 2002 Saints finished top, Hull 5th. 2003 Bradford finished top, London 5th. Both instances, in the league the team finishing 5th they got absolutely spanked by the team finishing top in the final month or so of the season. A couple of closer games too it must be said but spankings were a regular occurrence for 1st Vs 5th teams but it's not exactly true to say the gulf has never been wider between 1st and 5th. 

Would 2002 Hull have run 2002 Saints closer than 2022 Leeds ran 2022 Saints last night?

Edited by Amber Avenger
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SQL Honours

Play off mini league winner - 2002. Bronze Medalist - 2003. Big Split Group Winner - 2006. Minor Stupidship - 2005, 2006. Cup Silver Medalist - 2008, 2009

CHAMPION - 2005, 2009, 2010

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25 minutes ago, Niels said:

I understand your point but I am not sure. 

This year Wigan had to beat a team in fifth at home, who had had a tough game in France the week before and had lost players.

Previously they would have had to play a hard game at St Helens, then having probably lost, played Leeds on more equal terms with players possibly suspended or injured. 

I think Wigan fans may like to think it is harder to excuse their failure to reach the final this year. 

Players possibly suspended or injured is purely speculative.  Players get injured, get suspended, come back from injury and back from suspension all the time. 

Suggesting it is a factor in the consideration of one system or another is a bit of a stretch.

Finishing second in the old system gave you a second chance of Grand Final qualification and, if you needed it, the second game was at home.  I can see the argument of one game at home being easier but I'm pretty sure Wigan this year would have taken a second chance if it was on the table.

 

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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27 minutes ago, Amber Avenger said:

Maybe, but that's not really my point about teams from 5th getting there, more the gulf between 1st and 5th to begin with. 

Two examples from about 20 years ago, 2002 Saints finished top, Hull 5th. 2003 Bradford finished top, London 5th. Both instances, in the league the team finishing 5th they got absolutely spanked by the team finishing top in the final month or so of the season. A couple of closer games too it must be said but spankings were a regular occurrence for 1st Vs 5th teams but it's not exactly true to say the gulf has never been wider between 1st and 5th. 

Would 2002 Hull have run 2002 Saints closer than 2022 Leeds ran 2022 Saints last night?

You are getting subjective now and its easy to selectively quote examples to suit a view. Spankings happen between teams and have done for a long time.

Im not sure we can compare teams 20 years apart, there are far too many variables for that and things have changed a lot. Leeds were a shower for a third of the season and still made the final, which wouldnt have happened from when you quote 20 years ago with the play off system then in place.

It could easily be argued that Leeds looked last night and every bit the 5th placed team they are. Saints were better in every department and it was only Leeds grit and resilience, to their credit, that kept it close. I'm not sure why a 5th placed team from 20 years ago wouldn't have done similar.

Edited by Damien
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16 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Players possibly suspended or injured is purely speculative.  Players get injured, get suspended, come back from injury and back from suspension all the time. 

Suggesting it is a factor in the consideration of one system or another is a bit of a stretch.

Finishing second in the old system gave you a second chance of Grand Final qualification and, if you needed it, the second game was at home.  I can see the argument of one game at home being easier but I'm pretty sure Wigan this year would have taken a second chance if it was on the table.

 

I understand your point.

I think the key point is the comparisons are not identical and the strengh of the teams is a variable. Therefore it has to be subjective.

Also there is never a second chance if you lose at home to 5th. 

 

 

Edited by Niels
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3 minutes ago, Niels said:

I understand your point.

I think the key point is the comparisons are not identical and the strengh of the teams is a variable. Therefore it has to be subjective.

Also there is never a second chance if you lose at home to 6th. 

 

 

Yes, fair enough.  There are definitely some subjective elements to this.

I guess my argument boils down to this.  I think this system makes it easier for a team further down the play off structure to reach the Grand Final than previously.  Therefore, it cannot be simultaneously easier for the higher teams as well as that means it is easier for everyone and that is impossible. 

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"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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3 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Yes, fair enough.  There are definitely some subjective elements to this.

I guess my argument boils down to this.  I think this system makes it easier for a team further down the play off structure to reach the Grand Final than previously.  Therefore, it cannot be simultaneously easier for the higher teams as well as that means it is easier for everyone and that is impossible. 

Yes it's impossible to do both.

It is also quite easy to be objective about this in comparing systems and what they offer. There is also history that shows what systems more fairly reward league placing and which turn progression to Grand Final towards something much closer to coin toss.

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19 hours ago, dkw said:

When the rubbish stuff on 6 comes on like Cerys Matthews playing Peruvian nose flute music I switch over to NME radio.

Bloody hell dkw i didn’t know NME had a station, i’ll have to try and get that on DAB. When i know Craig Charles or other DJ’s come on playing dance stuff i switch off. 

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1 hour ago, Damien said:

You are getting subjective now and its easy to selectively quote examples to suit a view. Spankings happen between teams and have done for a long time.

Im not sure we can compare teams 20 years apart, there are far too many variables for that and things have changed a lot. Leeds were a shower for a third of the season and still made the final, which wouldnt have happened from when you quote 20 years ago with the play off system then in place.

It could easily be argued that Leeds looked last night and every bit the 5th placed team they are. Saints were better in every department and it was only Leeds grit and resilience, to their credit, that kept it close. I'm not sure why a 5th placed team from 20 years ago wouldn't have done similar.

To be honest those were the first two examples I looked up - I'm arguing against the point "The gulf between 1st and 5th has never been wider" - results and comparison is about the only way to do it as surely to make that statement in the first place someone (not you, I appreciate) has to make a brief hypothetical comparison across the decades.

There is nothing particularly in your post that backs up that yes the chasm is wider than ever, (if anything, you're arguing it's about the same, so it's certainly not wider than ever) so I think we're probably arguing at cross purposes. 

Edited by Amber Avenger

SQL Honours

Play off mini league winner - 2002. Bronze Medalist - 2003. Big Split Group Winner - 2006. Minor Stupidship - 2005, 2006. Cup Silver Medalist - 2008, 2009

CHAMPION - 2005, 2009, 2010

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3 minutes ago, Amber Avenger said:

To be honest those were the first two examples I looked up - I'm arguing against the point "The gulf between 1st and 5th has never been wider" - results and comparison is about the only way to do it as surely to make that statement in the first place someone (not you, I appreciate) has to make a brief hypothetical comparison across the decades.

There is nothing particularly in your post that backs up that yes the chasm is wider than ever, (if anything, you're arguing it's about the same, so it's certainly not wider than ever) so I think we're probably arguing at cross purposes. 

Fair enough, Im just replying to what you said and vice versa. You are indeed correct that we are arguing at cross purposes so happy to leave it.

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5 minutes ago, SalfordSlim said:

It's not fact though it's your opinion. I've listed 3 or 4 reasons why I disagree and you've not been able to give one reason why I'm wrong.

We'll agree to disagree on this one.

Now you are talking nonsense and dont seem to understand what a fact is. It is a fact that for the first 12 years when we had more difficult play off systems in place that we never had a team from below 3rd get to the Grand Final. Now you may not like that because it doesn't suit your opinion but it is a fact nonetheless and it certainly is not nonsense as per your assertion.

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15 hours ago, Leyther_Matt said:

Game went as expected really. As has been said all season, the overall standard of the league hasn’t been great and I don’t think there’s ever been such a gulf between first and fifth. An amazing effort for Leeds to get there with the games they’ve had to win, but tonight there were a little reminiscent of the team that started the season rather than the one that has finished. Don’t think Saints even got out of second gear.

My two penneth of the ‘greatest team’ discussion is that the (lack of) overall strength of the league means Saints aren’t really worthy of mention alongside the Wigan sides of the 80s and 90s. Maybe some of the younger lads will go on to have great careers, but Roby aside I don’t think there will be many of them that we will be reeling off in 30 years in the same manner as those Wigan sides (or even some of the Saints and Leeds sides in the SL era)

Was that the Wigan side of the 80's who were all professional whilst all the other teams were part timers. Saints are easily the most successful club in the Super league era!

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