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Sat 24th Sept: SLGF: St Helens v Leeds Rhinos KO 18:00 (Sky)


Who will win?  

84 members have voted

  1. 1. Who will win?

    • St Helens by 13 points or more
      13
    • St Helens by 7 to 12 points
      24
    • St Helens by 1 to 6 points
      5
    • Leeds Rhinos by 1 to 6 points
      26
    • Leeds Rhinos by 7 to 12 points
      15
    • Leeds Rhinos by 13 points or more
      1

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  • Poll closed on 24/09/22 at 17:30

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31 minutes ago, SalfordSlim said:

No matter how many times you churn this line out it's still nonsense mate.

Saints needed to win 1 game at home (where they're almost unbeatable) against a team that,  having finished 6th, had already had to beat the team that finished 3rd away from home (similar rules applied to Leeds who finished 5th).

Saints had home advantage, were fresher and were clearly the best team in the comp so in a one off game this is more than enough of an advantage. I'm really not sure what else you want to give the top 3/4 teams in SL to protect the status quo at the top.

How can something factual be nonsense?

Under the top 5, a team finishing 5th had to win 3 sudden death knockout games againt teams above them, away from home, to reach the Grand Final and under this system a team finishing 5th have to win 2 sudden death knockout games, againt teams above them, away from home to win the Grand Final. 

The former is harder.  It really isn't disputable.

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"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

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2 hours ago, SalfordSlim said:

Huh?🤔 I've said nothing about Saints not being a great team so not sure why you're bringing the fact that I'm a Salford fan into it.😂

I'm questioning why Rangers and Celtic are in that list for dominating a 2 team league where the other teams would struggle in L1 in England. The others mentioned are/were indeed great teams/individuals.

Keep your shirt on.

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11 hours ago, Chris22 said:

A nice touch by the likes of Rohan Smith and Blake Austin who applauded the Saints crowd as they left the field. Didn't go unnoticed.

Unlike Tommy Makinson who was goading the Leeds fans at the end, unsavoury to say the least.

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8 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

How can something factual be nonsense?

Under the top 5, a team finishing 5th had to win 3 sudden death knockout games againt teams above them, away from home, to reach the Grand Final and under this system a team finishing 5th have to win 2 sudden death knockout games, againt teams above them, away from home to win the Grand Final. 

The former is harder.  It really isn't disputable.

I think he meant it is easier for the first and second placed teams. Instead of a tough game against each other, and then a further one for the loser a week later, they only need to win a home game now. 

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1 minute ago, Niels said:

I think he meant it is easier for the first and second placed teams. Instead of a tough game against each other, and then a further one for the loser a week later, they only need to win a home game now. 

Maybe.  But having a second chance is surely an advantage as well?

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"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

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2 hours ago, Chrispmartha said:

Has Tommy Makinson being a right knob  at the end of the game been mentioned yet?

youve just won your 4th GF in a row, you have 25,000 saints fans at one end, yet he chooses to run to the Leeds fans and taunt them.

Classy.

 

Has it been mentioned about the three bottles launched at Saints players too?

Classy.

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46 minutes ago, SalfordSlim said:

No matter how many times you churn this line out it's still nonsense mate.

Saints needed to win 1 game at home (where they're almost unbeatable) against a team that,  having finished 6th, had already had to beat the team that finished 3rd away from home (similar rules applied to Leeds who finished 5th).

Saints had home advantage, were fresher and were clearly the best team in the comp so in a one off game this is more than enough of an advantage. I'm really not sure what else you want to give the top 3/4 teams in SL to protect the status quo at the top.

It isn’t just about 1st v 6th but each individual place in the top five playoffs got a slight advantage over the team below them. In this top 6 system there is no real difference between finishing 5th and 6th. Nor is there much difference between 3rd and 4th or 1st and 2nd. 

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7 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Maybe.  But having a second chance is surely an advantage as well?

I think it was a huge advantage and is often overlooked. The second chance meant a team had to have two off days not to make the Grand Final.

Just as importantly the 1 v 2 match benefitted the loser as it got them ready for play off rugby and they invariably still made the final. Now they go in cold with no 2nd chance against a team that already has a week of play off intensity rugby under their belt.

Edited by Damien
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12 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Maybe.  But having a second chance is surely an advantage as well?

I understand your point but I am not sure. 

This year Wigan had to beat a team in fifth at home, who had had a tough game in France the week before and had lost players.

Previously they would have had to play a hard game at St Helens, then having probably lost, played Leeds on more equal terms with players possibly suspended or injured. 

I think Wigan fans may like to think it is harder to excuse their failure to reach the final this year. 

Edited by Niels
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1 hour ago, Damien said:

In the first 12 years we never had a team from below 3rd get to the Grand Final because the play off system better rewarded league placings and was much more difficult for those finishing lower.

Maybe, but that's not really my point about teams from 5th getting there, more the gulf between 1st and 5th to begin with. 

Two examples from about 20 years ago, 2002 Saints finished top, Hull 5th. 2003 Bradford finished top, London 5th. Both instances, in the league the team finishing 5th they got absolutely spanked by the team finishing top in the final month or so of the season. A couple of closer games too it must be said but spankings were a regular occurrence for 1st Vs 5th teams but it's not exactly true to say the gulf has never been wider between 1st and 5th. 

Would 2002 Hull have run 2002 Saints closer than 2022 Leeds ran 2022 Saints last night?

Edited by Amber Avenger
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SQL Honours

Play off mini league winner - 2002. Bronze Medalist - 2003. Big Split Group Winner - 2006. Minor Stupidship - 2005, 2006. Cup Silver Medalist - 2008, 2009

CHAMPION - 2005, 2009, 2010

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25 minutes ago, Niels said:

I understand your point but I am not sure. 

This year Wigan had to beat a team in fifth at home, who had had a tough game in France the week before and had lost players.

Previously they would have had to play a hard game at St Helens, then having probably lost, played Leeds on more equal terms with players possibly suspended or injured. 

I think Wigan fans may like to think it is harder to excuse their failure to reach the final this year. 

Players possibly suspended or injured is purely speculative.  Players get injured, get suspended, come back from injury and back from suspension all the time. 

Suggesting it is a factor in the consideration of one system or another is a bit of a stretch.

Finishing second in the old system gave you a second chance of Grand Final qualification and, if you needed it, the second game was at home.  I can see the argument of one game at home being easier but I'm pretty sure Wigan this year would have taken a second chance if it was on the table.

 

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

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27 minutes ago, Amber Avenger said:

Maybe, but that's not really my point about teams from 5th getting there, more the gulf between 1st and 5th to begin with. 

Two examples from about 20 years ago, 2002 Saints finished top, Hull 5th. 2003 Bradford finished top, London 5th. Both instances, in the league the team finishing 5th they got absolutely spanked by the team finishing top in the final month or so of the season. A couple of closer games too it must be said but spankings were a regular occurrence for 1st Vs 5th teams but it's not exactly true to say the gulf has never been wider between 1st and 5th. 

Would 2002 Hull have run 2002 Saints closer than 2022 Leeds ran 2022 Saints last night?

You are getting subjective now and its easy to selectively quote examples to suit a view. Spankings happen between teams and have done for a long time.

Im not sure we can compare teams 20 years apart, there are far too many variables for that and things have changed a lot. Leeds were a shower for a third of the season and still made the final, which wouldnt have happened from when you quote 20 years ago with the play off system then in place.

It could easily be argued that Leeds looked last night and every bit the 5th placed team they are. Saints were better in every department and it was only Leeds grit and resilience, to their credit, that kept it close. I'm not sure why a 5th placed team from 20 years ago wouldn't have done similar.

Edited by Damien
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16 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Players possibly suspended or injured is purely speculative.  Players get injured, get suspended, come back from injury and back from suspension all the time. 

Suggesting it is a factor in the consideration of one system or another is a bit of a stretch.

Finishing second in the old system gave you a second chance of Grand Final qualification and, if you needed it, the second game was at home.  I can see the argument of one game at home being easier but I'm pretty sure Wigan this year would have taken a second chance if it was on the table.

 

I understand your point.

I think the key point is the comparisons are not identical and the strengh of the teams is a variable. Therefore it has to be subjective.

Also there is never a second chance if you lose at home to 5th. 

 

 

Edited by Niels
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3 minutes ago, Niels said:

I understand your point.

I think the key point is the comparisons are not identical and the strengh of the teams is a variable. Therefore it has to be subjective.

Also there is never a second chance if you lose at home to 6th. 

 

 

Yes, fair enough.  There are definitely some subjective elements to this.

I guess my argument boils down to this.  I think this system makes it easier for a team further down the play off structure to reach the Grand Final than previously.  Therefore, it cannot be simultaneously easier for the higher teams as well as that means it is easier for everyone and that is impossible. 

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"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

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3 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Yes, fair enough.  There are definitely some subjective elements to this.

I guess my argument boils down to this.  I think this system makes it easier for a team further down the play off structure to reach the Grand Final than previously.  Therefore, it cannot be simultaneously easier for the higher teams as well as that means it is easier for everyone and that is impossible. 

Yes it's impossible to do both.

It is also quite easy to be objective about this in comparing systems and what they offer. There is also history that shows what systems more fairly reward league placing and which turn progression to Grand Final towards something much closer to coin toss.

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1 hour ago, Loiner said:

Unlike Tommy Makinson who was goading the Leeds fans at the end, unsavoury to say the least.

You can take the man out of St Helens, but you can never take St Helens out of the man.

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"Stay away from negative people. They have a problem for every solution."

Albert Einstein   (Fat chance on THIS forum)

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4 minutes ago, RS said:

Not sure if anyone else has mentioned it but I wonder if anything will come of the contact with the TJ after the tip tackle melee 

I mentioned it. Looked like the player was about to clout the TJ.

"Stay away from negative people. They have a problem for every solution."

Albert Einstein   (Fat chance on THIS forum)

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19 hours ago, dkw said:

When the rubbish stuff on 6 comes on like Cerys Matthews playing Peruvian nose flute music I switch over to NME radio.

Bloody hell dkw i didn’t know NME had a station, i’ll have to try and get that on DAB. When i know Craig Charles or other DJ’s come on playing dance stuff i switch off. 

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