Hemi4561 Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 18 minutes ago, Roy Haggerty said: Little fish rarely want the size of the pond to be increased. Intelligent little fish do want the pond to be bigger, it increases their chances of survival, which, in turn increases the chances of their being more bigger fish. However the weakest of the big fish don't want this to happen as they will face more competion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzer90 Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 32 minutes ago, Roy Haggerty said: Little fish rarely want the size of the pond to be increased. Probably because they end up stuck in the same section with no benefits of the larger pond. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 (edited) 56 minutes ago, Barley Mow said: Personally, I wouldn't want a surgeon operating on me without my giving the go ahead. I'd listen to their diagnosis and the options and then decide whether to go ahead. I think it's the same for the clubs with these proposals. Personally, I wouldn't want a surgeon operating on me without my giving the go ahead. Be aware that you may not have that option, depending on the circumstances of say, cardiac arrest or other life-threatening condition. Others, rightfully concerned about your survival, may have to take the decision for you. Edited September 30, 2022 by JohnM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 24 minutes ago, Hemi4561 said: In your latest post you say that stakeholders should be heard. Are you saying that the should be automatically ignored anyway as you know you really don't want to hear their views. This is the reason some people use words like rigged, biased, stitch up, etc. IMG in a series of meetings, along with a set of carefully selected focus groups, come to the "right" conclusions that they know will please those that commissioned them in the first place. They then select tick box criteria based on the ability of the chosen ones to fulfil those criteria, and that the unclean will not be able to fulfil. Conspiracy theory? Sounds a bit like Lindsey and Murdoch to me, no wonder Keighley don't like, deja vu Rugby league family? More like Cain and Abel. No, that's not what I mean. Stakeholders should absolutely be heard and listened to. That doesn't mean we will do everything they want, indeed we can't do everything that everyone wants. We've had a consultation, and there is now a period for feedback, but if the majority feel this is the way to go, Keighley will ultimately need to be ignored. They can have their say, as much as I disagree, but not everyone will get their way. Some stakeholders will hate this, we won't convince them of any benefits in a million years, so let's not waste too much energy on that. But I don't prescribe to the way of thinking of doing stuff without a mandate. We need to get enough stakeholders to buy into the vision. But ultimately not everyone will, and that's OK. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 27 minutes ago, Hemi4561 said: In your latest post you say that stakeholders should be heard. Are you saying that the should be automatically ignored anyway as you know you really don't want to hear their views. This is the reason some people use words like rigged, biased, stitch up, etc. IMG in a series of meetings, along with a set of carefully selected focus groups, come to the "right" conclusions that they know will please those that commissioned them in the first place. They then select tick box criteria based on the ability of the chosen ones to fulfil those criteria, and that the unclean will not be able to fulfil. Conspiracy theory? Sounds a bit like Lindsey and Murdoch to me, no wonder Keighley don't like, deja vu Rugby league family? More like Cain and Abel. The reason for the use of such words is usually because the users are not getting their own way. There is absolutely NO bar to anyone like Keighley having their say, and absolutely no bar to them investing and improving within the current system. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barley Mow Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 (edited) 38 minutes ago, JohnM said: Personally, I wouldn't want a surgeon operating on me without my giving the go ahead. Be aware that you may not have that option, depending on the circumstances of say, cardiac arrest or other life-threatening condition. Others, rightfully concerned about your survival, may have to take the decision for you. True. In our analogy however all of the clubs are conscious and able to assess their situation and that of the game as a whole and decide whether they like the surgery being advised or whether they would like a second opinion. We may however disagree with the decision some reach, one way or the other - I suppose we relate that to people who may refuse surgery for, for example, religious reasons - we may consider it misguided, but from their point of view it is the only sensible decision. Edited September 30, 2022 by Barley Mow 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemi4561 Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 11 minutes ago, JohnM said: The reason for the use of such words is usually because the users are not getting their own way. There is absolutely NO bar to anyone like Keighley having their say, and absolutely no bar to them investing and improving within the current system. Which is what they have done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattSantos Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 13 hours ago, Henson Park Old Firm said: My idea that IMG could incorporate.... 1. all super league games televised on free/pay TV (they can start with that!) 2. All rounds have allocated days ( like the NRL) for example 6 games a week. 1 Thursday night game, 2 on Friday night games, 2 on Saturday games 1 night 1 afternoon, 1 on Sunday Afternoon game I used to bang this drum years ago. An absolute easy thing to do and one that clubs shouldnt have a say in. Running the Rob Burrow marathon to raise money for the My Name'5 Doddie foundation: https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/ben-dyas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 3 minutes ago, Hemi4561 said: Which is what they have done. Good for them. Next.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 1 minute ago, ShropshireBull said: Until we know what the new system then why would you invest to get blocked in two years. Keighley smell a rat and I dont blame them. No rats to smell here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jughead Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 6 minutes ago, MattSantos said: I used to bang this drum years ago. An absolute easy thing to do and one that clubs shouldnt have a say in. Of course clubs should have a say in it. If revenue is significantly different from hosting non-televised home games on a Sunday compared to a Friday night, for example, you can’t force teams to play on certain days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattSantos Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 1 minute ago, ShropshireBull said: Until we know what the new system then why would you invest to get blocked in two years. Keighley smell a rat and I dont blame them. I don't understand this view at all. They're a potentially decent championship side & club that should continue investing in the team & club infrastructure as well as the community. If they have aspirations for the elite league, then they can build solid foundations for that. If they don't then crack on as you are. Win-Win. 2 Running the Rob Burrow marathon to raise money for the My Name'5 Doddie foundation: https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/ben-dyas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattSantos Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 Just now, Jughead said: Of course clubs should have a say in it. If revenue is significantly different from hosting non-televised home games on a Sunday compared to a Friday night, for example, you can’t force teams to play on certain days. Tell me a sport where clubs make this decision and not the league? Running the Rob Burrow marathon to raise money for the My Name'5 Doddie foundation: https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/ben-dyas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemi4561 Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 17 minutes ago, Dave T said: No, that's not what I mean. Stakeholders should absolutely be heard and listened to. That doesn't mean we will do everything they want, indeed we can't do everything that everyone wants. We've had a consultation, and there is now a period for feedback, but if the majority feel this is the way to go, Keighley will ultimately need to be ignored. They can have their say, as much as I disagree, but not everyone will get their way. Some stakeholders will hate this, we won't convince them of any benefits in a million years, so let's not waste too much energy on that. But I don't prescribe to the way of thinking of doing stuff without a mandate. We need to get enough stakeholders to buy into the vision. But ultimately not everyone will, and that's OK. How do you convince some of your stakeholders that they should go out onto the pack ice and freeze to death because you think it is in the best interests of you and three of your mates? It certainly isn't in theirs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jughead Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 1 minute ago, MattSantos said: Tell me a sport where clubs make this decision and not the league? Yeah, that’s not an argument though, is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattSantos Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 Just now, Jughead said: Yeah, that’s not an argument though, is it? It really is. As you can't answer the question, that's it done. Running the Rob Burrow marathon to raise money for the My Name'5 Doddie foundation: https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/ben-dyas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 As. Edie Brickell famously sang, "What I am is what I am You're what you are or what? What I am is what I am You're what you are, or what?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tubby Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 10 hours ago, Dave T said: So the claim is just wrong then. 6 other Northern clubs were relegated from the top flight upon SL's creation. But that wasn't licensing. Nor was it based on competion on the field, so a bit of an anomaly in this particular discussion. It was more akin to licencing thatn P&R, wouldn't you agree? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 5 minutes ago, Hemi4561 said: How do you convince some of your stakeholders that they should go out onto the pack ice and freeze to death because you think it is in the best interests of you and three of your mates? It certainly isn't in theirs. That's life. But if we want to use melodrama then maybe the decision should be pitches as freeze to death or stay inside and burn to death. We can all play that game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemi4561 Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 2 minutes ago, MattSantos said: I don't understand this view at all. They're a potentially decent championship side & club that should continue investing in the team & club infrastructure as well as the community. If they have aspirations for the elite league, then they can build solid foundations for that. If they don't then crack on as you are. Win-Win. It's not hard to understand, Keighley did all you suggest, succeeded at it, but then had it all destroyed by others. Once bitten twice shy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 3 minutes ago, Tubby said: Nor was it based on competion on the field, so a bit of an anomaly in this particular discussion. It was more akin to licencing thatn P&R, wouldn't you agree? The 6 bottom teams were relegated, the only handpicking was London and Paris. P&R was still in place, with some minimum standards. Clubs are not complaining about being graded, they are complaining about P&R going, yet that stayed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattSantos Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 1 minute ago, Hemi4561 said: It's not hard to understand, Keighley did all you suggest, succeeded at it, but then had it all destroyed by others. Once bitten twice shy I can't agree with this logic. So why bother at all then? Why not go into proper amateur rugby? We can't bang on about the past all the time, it just isn't productive. 1 Running the Rob Burrow marathon to raise money for the My Name'5 Doddie foundation: https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/ben-dyas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jughead Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 14 minutes ago, MattSantos said: It really is. As you can't answer the question, that's it done. It’s not. If your argument is “they don’t do it in football or cricket or whatever sport” it’s not really applicable or relevant to rugby league, is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 8 minutes ago, Hemi4561 said: It's not hard to understand, Keighley did all you suggest, succeeded at it, but then had it all destroyed by others. Once bitten twice shy I have every sympathy with what happened nigh on 30 years ago. However, it has little relevance to the process now and everyone involved at that time is now gone. Moaning about that is not going to get Keighley anywhere. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemi4561 Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 12 minutes ago, Dave T said: That's life. But if we want to use melodrama then maybe the decision should be pitches as freeze to death or stay inside and burn to death. We can all play that game. Perhaps those that those that you wish to nobly sacrifice themselves for the good of you and your three mates stand sniggering on the shore decide to stick a harpoon through your guts and persuade the huskies to eat you alive. That's life. Your issue is that you don't want all to play the game, only those that won't threaten your cosy little hegemony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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