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Who will have an A licence and why?


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13 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

But 3 non Superleague clubs do have academies.

How many players do they produce now ?

Not a difficult question Dav 

Those non SL clubs , how many players do they produce ? 

Edited by GUBRATS
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40 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Do we define by postcodes, google maps, wikipedia?

Not that difficult!  - only if you want it to be? - a map with pins where teams are and put a rough border separating each and every one will also know which teams for example in the Wakefield, Cas , Fev area, which amateur team is in which area.

I dont know all the amateur teams but i guess Fev lions isn't a Cas team?

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7 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

I'd obviously prefer we looked to RL players further afield, but it does seem to be a particularly untapped resource. Particularly so in Yorkshire given the dearth of RU academies.

Perhaps I'm biased but whilst at school we played RU against other schools stacked with lads in the Sale, Worcester, Leicester, Newcastle etc academies, including a number of lads now playing for England, yet because we had no top flight club nearby our best players were rarely being picked up; even though we regularly beat these other teams and reached finals. The only one's who have ended up in League academies were because they also played League too. 

Yep, I can concur with your view.   

My son played RU and his team regular and almost all the time beat those clubs you mentioned as they moved up the age groups - even at pre-uni age.   Now I not absolutely sure the likes of Leicester always played their first choice but as far as I could tell they did.

He continued playing at Uni up at Newcastle and was always being tapped up by other RU teams.  He wasn't interested as he had other goals, not sport and as it turns out probably makes more money now than most of those that played at those clubs and went on to be fully professional.

He wasn't in a RL area and never talked to anyone except RU although he always said he preferred playing RU but liked watching RL.  Maybe given a chance he may have enjoyed RL more, although his perception was that RU offered more in way of rugby tours, friendships/socialising, etc etc..., 

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8 minutes ago, Derwent Parker said:

Not that difficult!  - only if you want it to be? - a map with pins where teams are and put a rough border separating each and every one will also know which teams for example in the Wakefield, Cas , Fev area, which amateur team is in which area.

I dont know all the amateur teams but i guess Fev lions isn't a Cas team?

I'll humour you, it is that difficult. You are talking about measures that restrict/affect players employment opportunities, these aren't to be done on a whim. 

If you fancy yourself as a player, and your closest club is demarcated as being in territory belonging to Fev, Hunslet, Batley, Dewsbury, Bradford, even Wakefield or Cas, its highly likely that a significant number of such young players will look to clubs just over the border to be in the Leeds Rhinos area. And considering Leeds already has probably more clubs than any other Professional team within its "borders" (even discounting South of the river), it wouldn't be hard to accommodate the influx which would also consolidate the strength of the clubs there. 

If people are already travelling across the County to play for "the right clubs" now, why would they not in future? The days of playing for your local amateur team just because they are your local team are as distant as supporting your local pro club for the same reason. People are far more able to move.

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52 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

Fair enough I get you know. I still don’t see what the local pro club is doing to gain this advantage as most amateur clubs are completely independent. 

In some areas Semi Pro/Pro teams do work well with their Local teams and if they dont -they should.

Because as many on here say about the CF [Sky} money only the elite 12 earn it, so we dont deserve it.

So if we take that as fact - then as a fellow old Fart [Adelaide Tiger] who answered me on another IMG forum states 

"I’m an old fart and I remember those halcyon days pre SL when there was no vast gap between the two leagues as most players played for their local team and were paid win/lose money and had to work 40 hours a week as well.  Also because players wages were relatively similar across clubs it really made little sense for players to move even if their club was relegated so clubs weren’t stripped of their best players.

However, SKY money disrupted this equilibrium, especially when some players went from £300 a win to £30,000 a year."

This is a fact! - and before the Sky money [which we dont get] those players would have stayed local - therefore we have lost players that would have signed for us if they had pro ambitions.

So that is why I believe local teams should be compensated

 

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1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

So why do the ' big ' 3 produce more players ? , I asked you this yesterday , but you declined answering , as usual 

I didn’t decline I just couldn’t be bothered to answer at the time given I’m currently sat on a beach in the Caribbean and not in dreary England 😁

But in response the big 3 produce more because over the last few decades they’ve invested more in their youth and created a pathway for those kids to get their 1st team chance. When a 1st teamer leaves their first thought is which of our youngsters is ready to step up and take their place, not who can we go out and buy to replace them

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St.Helens - The Home of record breaking Rugby Champions

 

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22 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

I didn’t decline I just couldn’t be bothered to answer at the time given I’m currently sat on a beach in the Caribbean and not in dreary England 😁

But in response the big 3 produce more because over the last few decades they’ve invested more in their youth and created a pathway for those kids to get their 1st team chance. When a 1st teamer leaves their first thought is which of our youngsters is ready to step up and take their place, not who can we go out and buy to replace them

Blx 

They produce more because they get more of the best to start with , plenty of that done through creating amateur ' super clubs ' , plenty of having bigger scholarships than they were supposed to have , plenty of ' bribing ' junior coaches to encourage the better kids to move clubs , not forgetting actual monetary incentives , and one of the big ones of Dads having bragging rights for where their lad is on scholarship or academy 

Leigh got Chris Hill quite simply because he refused to move to St Pat's as Wigan asked him to do , so the lesser clubs get the odd one like Chris or the occasional late developer , but the big clubs hoover up all the best either at scholarship or academy , Tommy Makinson and Joe Burgess were at Leigh scholarship , but jumped ship at academy , so give Saints 4th pick round Lancashire and we'd see a lot less coming through no matter how much ' better ' the coaching or the money pumped in 

So you suggest that in our brave new IMG world teams that don't produce their own should lose A grading , who decided what the cut off is ? , You ? , How about we remove the academy from the grading , as clubs like Saints , Wigan and Leeds are already gaining advantage on the salary cap , just how much of an advantage do you want ? 

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44 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Blx 

They produce more because they get more of the best to start with , plenty of that done through creating amateur ' super clubs ' , plenty of having bigger scholarships than they were supposed to have , plenty of ' bribing ' junior coaches to encourage the better kids to move clubs , not forgetting actual monetary incentives , and one of the big ones of Dads having bragging rights for where their lad is on scholarship or academy 

Leigh got Chris Hill quite simply because he refused to move to St Pat's as Wigan asked him to do , so the lesser clubs get the odd one like Chris or the occasional late developer , but the big clubs hoover up all the best either at scholarship or academy , Tommy Makinson and Joe Burgess were at Leigh scholarship , but jumped ship at academy , so give Saints 4th pick round Lancashire and we'd see a lot less coming through no matter how much ' better ' the coaching or the money pumped in 

So you suggest that in our brave new IMG world teams that don't produce their own should lose A grading , who decided what the cut off is ? , You ? , How about we remove the academy from the grading , as clubs like Saints , Wigan and Leeds are already gaining advantage on the salary cap , just how much of an advantage do you want ? 

Jeeze what a hissy fit. It’s not about advantage it’s about some clubs spending time, money and effort on their academies and thus them reaping the rewards. While others just pay lip service and continually whine that they can’t compete.

St.Helens - The Home of record breaking Rugby Champions

 

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2 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Jeeze what a hissy fit. It’s not about advantage it’s about some clubs spending time, money and effort on their academies and thus them reaping the rewards. While others just pay lip service and continually whine that they can’t compete.

As I said 

Blx

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Are there any of the other sports where IMG have an involvement that have Academies?

Are IMG in the least bit interested?

If so,perhaps they can ensure that the best possible coaching is afforded to them.

I did check the Basketball EuroLeague they are involved with.

A licences last 10 years.The arenas must have 10k seats.The clubs are certainly more than 20 miles apart.

On another note,the Hollywood wealthy couple 8nvolved with Wrexham soccer club,quite enjoy the novelty of promotion and aim to take their non-league soccer club to the Premier League. 

     No reserves,but resilience,persistence and determination are omnipotent.                       

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4 minutes ago, Angelic Cynic said:

Are there any of the other sports where IMG have an involvement that have Academies?

Are IMG in the least bit interested?

If so,perhaps they can ensure that the best possible coaching is afforded to them.

I did check the Basketball EuroLeague they are involved with.

A licences last 10 years.The arenas must have 10k seats.The clubs are certainly more than 20 miles apart.

On another note,the Hollywood wealthy couple 8nvolved with Wrexham soccer club,quite enjoy the novelty of promotion and aim to take their non-league soccer club to the Premier League. 

I'd suggest they aren't ' interested ' in academies , but do understand the need to have them to produce UK players for the sport and the potential benefit that is for the England/GB team going forward into the lucrative  international market 

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50 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Jeeze what a hissy fit. It’s not about advantage it’s about some clubs spending time, money and effort on their academies and thus them reaping the rewards. While others just pay lip service and continually whine that they can’t compete.

I think this is a bit naïve. Go watch any under 14s game, the best kids will be signed to Saints/Wigan/Leeds scholarships for the following year, with Wire shortly behind. They get first pick, everyone else gets to fight over the ones they missed or don't want.

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7 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

Which is exactly what I agreed with in the previous threads about academy licences. I’ve long argued that an academy should be mandatory for all SL clubs and that clubs should be measured on how well they develop those youngsters and bring them through to their 1st team and let them then establish themselves as 1st team players.

Too many clubs just see their youngsters as squad fillers, there to cover for injuries and they automatically buy in new. It’s no coincidence that the 3 most successful clubs are the ones with the 3 best academies and the ones who continually promote from within as their first priority and only buy in when they don’t have an academy player for that position at that time.

It's no coincidence that these same clubs get first draft.

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2 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

Blx 

They produce more because they get more of the best to start with , plenty of that done through creating amateur ' super clubs ' , plenty of having bigger scholarships than they were supposed to have , plenty of ' bribing ' junior coaches to encourage the better kids to move clubs , not forgetting actual monetary incentives , and one of the big ones of Dads having bragging rights for where their lad is on scholarship or academy 

Leigh got Chris Hill quite simply because he refused to move to St Pat's as Wigan asked him to do , so the lesser clubs get the odd one like Chris or the occasional late developer , but the big clubs hoover up all the best either at scholarship or academy , Tommy Makinson and Joe Burgess were at Leigh scholarship , but jumped ship at academy , so give Saints 4th pick round Lancashire and we'd see a lot less coming through no matter how much ' better ' the coaching or the money pumped in 

So you suggest that in our brave new IMG world teams that don't produce their own should lose A grading , who decided what the cut off is ? , You ? , How about we remove the academy from the grading , as clubs like Saints , Wigan and Leeds are already gaining advantage on the salary cap , just how much of an advantage do you want ? 

This is difficult to hear but sadly true.

Hopefully people realise it's not as simple as getting an academy and good coaches.

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21 minutes ago, V02 said:

I think this is a bit naïve. Go watch any under 14s game, the best kids will be signed to Saints/Wigan/Leeds scholarships for the following year, with Wire shortly behind. They get first pick, everyone else gets to fight over the ones they missed or don't want.

We were contacted by a coach ( service area coach ) from a different local team to the one my son was playing at asking us if we were interested in moving him , he ' suggested ' he had influence in getting my son onto the Wigan scholarship if we were to move him 

As I said at that time I'd been told ' that ' some ' local clubs had close to double the RFL allowed number of kids on their scholarship programmes 

But either way , we were happy ( as was he ) to remain where he was 

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3 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

I didn’t decline I just couldn’t be bothered to answer at the time given I’m currently sat on a beach in the Caribbean and not in dreary England 😁

But in response the big 3 produce more because over the last few decades they’ve invested more in their youth and created a pathway for those kids to get their 1st team chance. When a 1st teamer leaves their first thought is which of our youngsters is ready to step up and take their place, not who can we go out and buy to replace them

I understand why you may think that but the fact is quite different, it's mainly because they get first draft of the best kids.

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43 minutes ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

I understand why you may think that but the fact is quite different, it's mainly because they get first draft of the best kids.

This can very easily turn into a nature vs nurture debate. Ultimately plenty of highly rated youngsters still don’t make it and if it was purely top kids go in, top players come out then the top clubs waste a lot of time and effort in helping them develop. Welsby wouldn’t be half the player he currently is if Saints hadn’t put their trust in him and allowing Coote to leave for example…

Instead - I think it’s more pertinent to suppose your assertion is correct, the big three “get first draft” and ask why. In theory a Leigh mad kid whose grown up supporting the club should want to join the Leigh academy. Why don’t they? I guess it’s one of three answers;

- the big 3 put more effort into convincing them to join. Schemes like Saints Australia tour (prior to Covid) doesn’t necessarily help towards anything, but sounds a really cool thing to be part of and may just be enough to swing a maybe to a yes.

- the big 3 offer better coaching and facilities, with a demonstrable path to becoming a professional player.

- the big 3 pay more in academy contracts than other academies.

Surely it is up to other clubs to put attractive offers to the junior players that breaks the “first draft” rather than just complaining it exists? 

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1 hour ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

I understand why you may think that but the fact is quite different, it's mainly because they get first draft of the best kids.

Its chicken and egg, saints, Leeds and Wigan have a history of giving youth a go and even if you don't make the grade at these clubs the liklihood is you will play at another SL club or at worst a championship club.

What did Salford or Leigh offer? Or Warrington for the matter, never gave youth a go and imported journeymen.

Ad a kid or parent given the choice which one would you pick??

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1 hour ago, Magic Superbeetle said:

This can very easily turn into a nature vs nurture debate. Ultimately plenty of highly rated youngsters still don’t make it and if it was purely top kids go in, top players come out then the top clubs waste a lot of time and effort in helping them develop. Welsby wouldn’t be half the player he currently is if Saints hadn’t put their trust in him and allowing Coote to leave for example…

Instead - I think it’s more pertinent to suppose your assertion is correct, the big three “get first draft” and ask why. In theory a Leigh mad kid whose grown up supporting the club should want to join the Leigh academy. Why don’t they? I guess it’s one of three answers;

- the big 3 put more effort into convincing them to join. Schemes like Saints Australia tour (prior to Covid) doesn’t necessarily help towards anything, but sounds a really cool thing to be part of and may just be enough to swing a maybe to a yes.

- the big 3 offer better coaching and facilities, with a demonstrable path to becoming a professional player.

- the big 3 pay more in academy contracts than other academies.

Surely it is up to other clubs to put attractive offers to the junior players that breaks the “first draft” rather than just complaining it exists? 

Yes good points.

Like yipee says it's chicken and egg 

Top 3 will give more youth an opportunity due to 2 reasons.

1. Their youth are generally better as they get first draft.

2. They are not in danger of relegation and therefore don't want to risk youth.

Granted they often push for top honours but easier to blood kids in a good team than a struggling team.

I'm not blaming the clubs but identifying why the current situation and system doesn't help less fashionable clubs. It isn't as simple as saying top academy's have better coaches and attractions.

Also money is a red herring, the cash is minimal at that level and no player gets a wage at 14 which is when majority are recruited. 

 

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When did Warrington start seriously investing in their academy? Likewise Hull and Huddersfield?

The big 3 have nearly a decade on these clubs, and these clubs are already starting from a weaker position. Its never going to be an overnight process, and is almost going to require generational change.

To overcome inherent and long term positions, they will need to spend more, work harder and recruit smarter. Even then it might not begin to pay off for another 10 years; that's the cost of being years behind your competitors.

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8 hours ago, Magic Superbeetle said:

This can very easily turn into a nature vs nurture debate. Ultimately plenty of highly rated youngsters still don’t make it and if it was purely top kids go in, top players come out then the top clubs waste a lot of time and effort in helping them develop. Welsby wouldn’t be half the player he currently is if Saints hadn’t put their trust in him and allowing Coote to leave for example…

Instead - I think it’s more pertinent to suppose your assertion is correct, the big three “get first draft” and ask why. In theory a Leigh mad kid whose grown up supporting the club should want to join the Leigh academy. Why don’t they? I guess it’s one of three answers;

- the big 3 put more effort into convincing them to join. Schemes like Saints Australia tour (prior to Covid) doesn’t necessarily help towards anything, but sounds a really cool thing to be part of and may just be enough to swing a maybe to a yes.

- the big 3 offer better coaching and facilities, with a demonstrable path to becoming a professional player.

- the big 3 pay more in academy contracts than other academies.

Surely it is up to other clubs to put attractive offers to the junior players that breaks the “first draft” rather than just complaining it exists? 

Nobody has said it's purely initial quality ,but that is a massive starting point , and as I said it starts at junior level with community ' super clubs ' 

 

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