37 of 42 back IMG’s proposal

[Oxford]

15 hours ago, Rugbyleaguesupporter said:

I also think rugby (both codes) will always be behind football in entertainment value as simply it's harder to score goals in football than points in rugby.

This is the nub  of market place and myth.

It is not an objective reality that certain things provide entertainment value and other don't. However this is coomon currency in sports arguments and debates. It ease of scoring was a hindrance things like basketball would have no fans. We're not talking skills involved there for those who feel defensive about this notion.

Also comparing the entertainment level of the sport TGG with intrinsically boring " Sir used to be England coach" something or other's suggestion not mine I have to say. Personally I think even his terminal concept of yawn was far too generous.

[Tommygilf]

If we're looking for why grading is coming in, look at Kings Lynn Town on BBC1 now. A ground essentially like Castleford's, except they are a 6th Division non-league team who went bust just over a decade ago.

The sport needs to focus on strengthening its position and infrastructure, not just the rat race of fear of getting relegated. We are not football, we're not even close.

[gingerjon]

5 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

If we're looking for why grading is coming in, look at Kings Lynn Town on BBC1 now. A ground essentially like Castleford's, except they are a 6th Division non-league team who went bust just over a decade ago.

The sport needs to focus on strengthening its position and infrastructure, not just the rat race of fear of getting relegated. We are not football, we're not even close.

Quite a fun ground it looks like. I’m getting Proustian flashbacks to every lower league ground I went to in the 1980s.

Which is entirely your point.

[Gav Wilson]

1 hour ago, Taffy Tiger said:

Do we honestly think that , barring relegation this year , or the loss of financial input from their CEO's in the future , that Wigan, Saints, Warrington, Leeds, Hull, Catalans or Huddersfield won't be Cat A , and consequently guaranteed a place at the top table , when eventually the league goes to 14  and closes shop . Of course they will , whether we like it or not , there just isn't enough money in the game at the moment for the RFL/IMG to be able to afford to lose them. This means that they will be Cat A , or a high enough Cat B to ensure that they will never leave the top flight , unless the above stated were to happen . Huddersfield wouldn't be any where near a Cat A or even a top Cat B , without the financial input from Ken Davey , who despite all of his efforts and millions of pounds invested in the club , still can't get average crowds of much more than 5,000 , and would soon drop down the table if he were to withdraw his financial support , but at the end of the day RL needs him , and all of the other investors . It would mean that if Derek Beaumont continues to invest millions in Leigh, or any other club not mentioned in the list above , suddenly gets a new owner willing to invest millions , then they will also be in the top flight when it goes to a closed shop of 14 teams , and if , in some unlikely event , RL suddenly becomes a sport that all millionaires wish to invest in , then the 14 team top flight closed shop , would soon expand to accommodate them all . In the meantime the clubs with big investors are in , and the others must make it on other criteria.

While there are Cat B clubs are in Super League, it will never be a closed shop.

If we ever get to a point where we have 14 Cat A clubs, then the game will be in incredible shape.

[GUBRATS]

3 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

Or that Leigh sealed the IMG vote by showing other clubs even if you put all the building blocks in place you would be wasting your time when someone drops a million plus onto a squad. We’ve had Toronto, Toulouse then Leigh. 

Most of us would rather see a thriving part time second tier where it’s very competitive and every club feels that if they are doing the right things they have a shot in the playoffs to go to SL. 

This is the most open it’s been in years and that’s largely down to Toulouse keeping their powder dry (for now). 

 

A shot yes , but no chance whatsoever of staying in SL , and that's with P and R , start grading and it's not even worth bothering 

[GUBRATS]

1 hour ago, Taffy Tiger said:

Do we honestly think that , barring relegation this year , or the loss of financial input from their CEO's in the future , that Wigan, Saints, Warrington, Leeds, Hull, Catalans or Huddersfield won't be Cat A , and consequently guaranteed a place at the top table , when eventually the league goes to 14  and closes shop . Of course they will , whether we like it or not , there just isn't enough money in the game at the moment for the RFL/IMG to be able to afford to lose them. This means that they will be Cat A , or a high enough Cat B to ensure that they will never leave the top flight , unless the above stated were to happen . Huddersfield wouldn't be any where near a Cat A or even a top Cat B , without the financial input from Ken Davey , who despite all of his efforts and millions of pounds invested in the club , still can't get average crowds of much more than 5,000 , and would soon drop down the table if he were to withdraw his financial support , but at the end of the day RL needs him , and all of the other investors . It would mean that if Derek Beaumont continues to invest millions in Leigh, or any other club not mentioned in the list above , suddenly gets a new owner willing to invest millions , then they will also be in the top flight when it goes to a closed shop of 14 teams , and if , in some unlikely event , RL suddenly becomes a sport that all millionaires wish to invest in , then the 14 team top flight closed shop , would soon expand to accommodate them all . In the meantime the clubs with big investors are in , and the others must make it on other criteria.

I don't think anybody has any issues with clubs being ' invested 'in to be in the top tier , it's where we see location becoming an issue , as in " wouldn't it be great for York , Toulouse , Toronto ,Newcastle ,London " or anywhere else fashionable is fine for SL , despite these places having relatively little interest in RL , but " Leigh ,Fev,Fax,Batley are too close to X number of other clubs " to be in SL 

That's when it becomes a problem 

[GUBRATS]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

Yes.

But say the pass mark for a grade A is 70/100. If St Helens are already on 85, they have a lot of room to fall back on before they are in squeaky bum time. It is in their interests to keep that buffer however.

Surely they should be compared to their own starting point , not other clubs , so if they don't improve their own performance , then they become at risk ,isn't that what constant improvement and assessment means ?

[Taffy Tiger]

20 minutes ago, Gav Wilson said:

While there are Cat B clubs are in Super League, it will never be a closed shop.

If we ever get to a point where we have 14 Cat A clubs, then the game will be in incredible shape.

 I think it is guaranteed that there will be 14 Cat A clubs at some point in the future , even if that means lowering the standards , as the RFL/IMG have already said that this is their goal and to have a closed shop of 14 teams . However , if this will truly only happen if everyone reaches a very high standard , not reduced standards just to have a 14 team top flight by year 20XX, then I agree it would be a fantastic place for the game to be in . Here's hoping !

Edited November 26, 2022 by Taffy Tiger
error

[gingerjon]

3 minutes ago, Taffy Tiger said:

as the RFL/IMG have already said that this is there goal and to have a closed shop of 14 teams

They have literally said the exact opposite.

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, Taffy Tiger said:

 I think it is guaranteed that there will be 14 Cat A clubs at some point in the future , even if that means lowering the standards , as the RFL/IMG have already said that this is there goal and to have a closed shop of 14 teams . However , if this will truly only happen if everyone reaches a very high standard , not reduced standards just to have a 14 team top flight by year 20XX, then I agree it would be a fantastic place for the game to be in . Here's hoping !

But why would they just lower standards? It's nonsense to just lower standards just so they can have a closed shop. They could recommend a closed shop now and probably still get it through. But they have no desire to have weak clubs locked in. 

The only people who see logic in locking in weak teams are the paranoid. 

[Taffy Tiger]

5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

But why would they just lower standards? It's nonsense to just lower standards just so they can have a closed shop. They could recommend a closed shop now and probably still get it through. But they have no desire to have weak clubs locked in. 

The only people who see logic in locking in weak teams are the paranoid. 

I agree , but their aim has been to have a 14 team closed shop with all teams Category A by the year 20XX , admittedly they don't say when exactly this will happen , but I find it hard to believe that it won't be in place , in some for or another , during IMG 12 year tenure

[GUBRATS]

6 minutes ago, Dave T said:

But why would they just lower standards? It's nonsense to just lower standards just so they can have a closed shop. They could recommend a closed shop now and probably still get it through. But they have no desire to have weak clubs locked in. 

The only people who see logic in locking in weak teams are the paranoid. 

They did it last time Dave , by letting CAS,Wakey,Salford and Saints in with substandard stadia 

[Saint Toppy]

22 hours ago, Oxford said:

This is one of the myths that I refered to earlier.

I am confused by the suggestion that the product isn't good enough, though not by the idea it can't be improved.

If fans of the game, or posters, pundits and Journos believe it is not a good enough product: why are they fans?, Why would they support a sport they don't think of as quality?, and Why would they post about it or wish to change it?

The reason I watch RL, post about RL and spend my disposable income on RL is it is TGG. It is the quality product and it is the market place that's the problem not the product.

 

The game itself is a good product, the standard of some of the clubs playing it isn't a great advert for the game. Some clubs are very marketable some as they are right now just aren't.

[Taffy Tiger]

15 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

They have literally said the exact opposite.

I may be wrong , but my understanding was as follows

End 2023 , bottom club relegated as usual and all teams given an indicative/illustrative Grading , either A, B or C for the following season

End 2024 , gradings finalised with the top 12 into SL (or whatever new competition will be called)

Every year thereon all Cat B and Cat C teams will be reviewed and re-graded if necessary

All Cat A clubs exempt from review

When 14 Cat A teams are in place then the top league will become a closed shop , no time limit given

This is my understanding , but will happily stand corrected if not the case

[gingerjon]

19 minutes ago, Dave T said:

But why would they just lower standards? It's nonsense to just lower standards just so they can have a closed shop. They could recommend a closed shop now and probably still get it through. But they have no desire to have weak clubs locked in. 

The only people who see logic in locking in weak teams are the paranoid. 

They have said that there is no closed shop. Category A teams will always be accommodated in the top tier. If the shape of the top tier has to change to accommodate the number then it will change.

I'm not sure how much clearer they can be on that.

[Toby Chopra]

4 minutes ago, Taffy Tiger said:

I agree , but their aim has been to have a 14 team closed shop with all teams Category A by the year 20XX , admittedly they don't say when exactly this will happen , but I find it hard to believe that it won't be in place , in some for or another , during IMG 12 year tenure

The closed shop isn't the end in itself for IMG, their aim is to create a league of strong clubs that generate increased revenue.

The potential closed shop only comes about as a side effect of successfully reaching that aim, because strong clubs are rewarded with protection. And it's still expandable. 

But if we don't get to 14 strong clubs - and I myself struggle to see more than 10 by the time IMG's contract is up - then I see no reason why the door won't remain open. 

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, Taffy Tiger said:

I may be wrong , but my understanding was as follows

End 2023 , bottom club relegated as usual and all teams given an indicative/illustrative Grading , either A, B or C for the following season

End 2024 , gradings finalised with the top 12 into SL (or whatever new competition will be called)

Every year thereon all Cat B and Cat C teams will be reviewed and re-graded if necessary

All Cat A clubs exempt from review

When 14 Cat A teams are in place then the top league will become a closed shop , no time limit given

This is my understanding , but will happily stand corrected if not the case

Broadly, I think you're right until you get to the number 14.

They have said that there is no limit on the number of category A teams. If there are more than 14 then the top tier will have more than 14 clubs in it.

They have been clear that the only way to absolutely guarantee being a top tier side is to pass Category A standard.

[Blind side johnny]

On 25/11/2022 at 11:26, Oxford said:

Oh, I see!

 

Category A is exempt from relegation which would not support your argument. If you look at how Ofsted inspections work (or most importantly don't) the idea that an organisation exempt from the worst consequence of standards will need to or will keep up its standards is illogical.

The assumption that category A will, or that without other huge changes the other organisations can achieve A status after being placed in other categories is what the exemption is based on.

I am also amazed at the number of posters who are normally quite cynical of, and suspicious about changes and their implications who seem to have bought into this so completely.

To me it simply reflects a stitch up, whoever voted for it and whoever supports it.

Then you have misunderstood my argument. The categorisations, including A, aren't permanent but need to be continuously accredited, just like Ofsted in fact.

You accuse people of "buying into" this as if we are all a part of some conspiracy. In fact I have looked at the proposals that have been made public and, so far, see them as being a reasonable approach to taking the game forward. Naturally, I reserve the right to change my mind if and when other facts come to light.

Those who prefer to stick with what we have in the hope that things will somehow improve are also perfectly entitled to their opinions.

[Toby Chopra]

2 minutes ago, Taffy Tiger said:

I may be wrong , but my understanding was as follows

End 2023 , bottom club relegated as usual and all teams given an indicative/illustrative Grading , either A, B or C for the following season

End 2024 , gradings finalised with the top 12 into SL (or whatever new competition will be called)

Every year thereon all Cat B and Cat C teams will be reviewed and re-graded if necessary

All Cat A clubs exempt from review

When 14 Cat A teams are in place then the top league will become a closed shop , no time limit given

This is my understanding , but will happily stand corrected if not the case

I haven't seen anywhere that Cat A clubs will be exempt from review. They'll be exempt from relegation which is of course a totally different thing. 

When the league reaches 14 Cat As, it will no longer be accessible for Cat B clubs via ptomotion, but they can be added if they achieve Cat A. So yes it would be a closed shop, but not capped at 14. 

But as I say above, I struggle to see how we get to 14 Cat As a decade from now if, say, Leeds or Saints are the benchmark for Cat A. 

[Taffy Tiger]

To Toby Chopra and gingerjohn , I did say I would stand corrected , and you are both absolutely right . They do say that they will allow extra on top of the 14 should enough clubs meet the criteria . Sorry , and thanks for clarifying .

[Dave T]

34 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

They have said that there is no closed shop. Category A teams will always be accommodated in the top tier. If the shape of the top tier has to change to accommodate the number then it will change.

I'm not sure how much clearer they can be on that.

Indeed. Its all a nonsense. It's the same as those who reckon they have victimised the likes of Leigh and Fev but fought tooth and nail for Cas, Wakey and Salford. 

They make out the unfashionable clubs are locked out, but there are unfashionable clubs locked in. None of the claims make sense. 

[Saint Toppy]

11 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

So if it constant improvement , if Saints don't ' constantly improve ' they will lose their licence ? 

 

Yes, same for any club, No grade of license should be guaranteed once you've achieved it. Set a bar for each grade then once you get to a decent number of clubs that have achieved that grade then raise the bar again. It will force all clubs to work hard to firstly maintain a grade and then over time have to improve further to stay at that grade.

[GeordieSaint]

The likelihood of 14 rugby league clubs achieving a Grade A at any time in the future is slim…

… a drastic change needed in the sport over here to make that happen.

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, GeordieSaint said:

The likelihood of 14 rugby league clubs achieving a Grade A at any time in the future is slim…

… a drastic change needed in the sport over here to make that happen.

Agreed. If we have 10 by 2028 I'd be very impressed.

That said, there is the potential that some clubs are able to massively improve their position based on a strong grading ensuring a Super League spot and attracting further investment. Lots of B's could find themselves in that position potentially.

[Tommygilf]

6 hours ago, gingerjon said:

Quite a fun ground it looks like. I’m getting Proustian flashbacks to every lower league ground I went to in the 1980s.

Which is entirely your point.

Quite, in a similar way to the top tier of Scottish football, it seems English RL contains elements of what English mens football has between the lower championship/upper league 1 and the 6th and even lower tiers (especially when considering league 1 teams). It's just condensed into 30 odd teams rather than well over 100.

That is why the expectation that we can run the sport just like football does is utter nonsense.