37 of 42 back IMG’s proposal

[GUBRATS]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

Totally agree H

Do you include ' Location ' ? 

[GeordieSaint]

18 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Agreed. If we have 10 by 2028 I'd be very impressed.

That said, there is the potential that some clubs are able to massively improve their position based on a strong grading ensuring a Super League spot and attracting further investment. Lots of B's could find themselves in that position potentially.

Purely my opinion but only 5 clubs justify a Cat A IMO - Wigan, Saints, Leeds, Wire and Catalan - call these Batch A.

The likes of Hull, Hull KR, Toulouse, and Huddersfield are in the next strata of clubs (Batch B) but will be a strong B but with work to do. The two former in terms of junior development and the latter two in terms of crowds/commercial revenues I would imagine. 

The likes of Salford and Leigh are in the next batch of clubs (Batch C). Lots of work to do to achieve an A but with good potential. 

Castleford, Wakefield, Featherstone, London, possibly Bradford all in the best batch (Batch D) - some stronger than others but significant work to do in multiple areas. You might be able to add the likes of York, Halifax and Newcastle into this cohort - all for different reasons. 

The rest (Batch E) are all long shots… very long shots and would need vast growth across all areas to be in a shot of a Cat A - probably not doable and at best a Cat B is the best they can hope for in the next 10-20yrs. 

So how many of the Batch B-D clubs can realistic achieve a Cat A grade during the 12yr IMG contract period? I am sceptical for many of them to build clubs that look anything remotely like the Wigan and Leeds of this world. 

Edited November 27, 2022 by GeordieSaint

[Harry Stottle]

52 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

Purely my opinion but only 5 clubs justify a Cat A IMO - Wigan, Saints, Leeds, Wire and Catalan - call these Batch 1. 

The likes of Hull, Hull KR, Toulouse, and Huddersfield are in the next strata of clubs (Batch B) but will be a strong B but with work to do. The two former in terms of junior development and the latter two in terms of crowds/commercial revenues I would imagine. 

The likes of Salford and Leigh are in the next batch of clubs (Batch C). Lots of work to do to achieve an A but with good potential. 

Castleford, Wakefield, Featherstone, London, possibly Bradford all in the best batch (Batch D) - some stronger than others but significant work to do in multiple areas. You might be able to add the likes of York, Halifax and Newcastle into this cohort - all for different reasons. 

The rest (Batch E) are all long shots… very long shots and would need vast growth across all areas to be in a shot of a Cat A - probably not doable and at best a Cat B is the best they can hope for in the next 10-20yrs. 

So how many of the Batch B-D clubs can realistic achieve a Cat A grade during the 12yr IMG contract period? I am sceptical for many of them to build clubs that look anything remotely like the Wigan and Leeds of this world. 

Why Toulouse Geordie, is it strictly potential that you are basing them In your Batch B, what else have they acheived to give them that ranking?

Honest answer please, and that is to everyone who rates Toulouse so highly, there are 37 club's to be graded and each should be on their own merits and not by some other influence that doesn't exist.

[Davo5]

7 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Why Toulouse Geordie, is it strictly potential that you are basing them In your Batch B, what else have they acheived to give them that ranking?

Honest answer please, and that is to everyone who rates Toulouse so highly, there are 37 club's to be graded and each should be on their own merits and not by some other influence that doesn't exist.

Surviving 2 yrs without a home game & still gaining promotion,then putting out a reasonably competitive Superleague side despite the huge burden of paying all the other teams travelling expenses maybe.

[GeordieSaint]

5 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

Surviving 2 yrs without a home game & still gaining promotion,then putting out a reasonably competitive Superleague side despite the huge burden of paying all the other teams travelling expenses maybe.

Good player pathways are in place. Good finances with broad funding streams (French clubs have an advantage here due to the way the Marie system works). Good ground. Decent support base demonstrated in SL. 

That’s even before you start talking about development potential. 

[Harry Stottle]

20 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

Surviving 2 yrs without a home game & still gaining promotion,then putting out a reasonably competitive Superleague side despite the huge burden of paying all the other teams travelling expenses maybe.

I thought you didn't like the fact that some clubs could outspend others Dav? isn't that what Toulouse did in gaining promotion that as well as playing fewer games than other clubs and finishing top on percentage, then refusing to play Fev in Toulouse when Fev offered them the game?

Be honest Dav, you are just going on the geographical aspect and assumed potential that has still to be acheived, they played a full season of 'home games' last year didn't they?

All I want the grading system to do is take each club on it's own merits, as all the others will be.

[Davo5]

33 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

Good player pathways are in place. Good finances with broad funding streams (French clubs have an advantage here due to the way the Marie system works). Good ground. Decent support base demonstrated in SL. 

That’s even before you start talking about development potential. 

Oh I agree but Toulouse are a non heartland club so some get all hot & flustered when they are even mentioned.

[Davo5]

26 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I thought you didn't like the fact that some clubs could outspend others Dav? isn't that what Toulouse did in gaining promotion that as well as playing fewer games than other clubs and finishing top on percentage, then refusing to play Fev in Toulouse when Fev offered them the game?

Be honest Dav, you are just going on the geographical aspect and assumed potential that has still to be acheived, they played a full season of 'home games' last year didn't they?

All I want the grading system to do is take each club on it's own merits, as all the others will be.

Your first paragraph is the same old rubbish you’ve trotted out repeatedly.

No I’m really not.

How do you know the grading process won’t do that.

[GUBRATS]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Why Toulouse Geordie, is it strictly potential that you are basing them In your Batch B, what else have they acheived to give them that ranking?

Honest answer please, and that is to everyone who rates Toulouse so highly, there are 37 club's to be graded and each should be on their own merits and not by some other influence that doesn't exist.

Location Harry , you know , I know it , even if it isn't actually written down , it will be an influence 

[GUBRATS]

56 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

Good player pathways are in place. Good finances with broad funding streams (French clubs have an advantage here due to the way the Marie system works). Good ground. Decent support base demonstrated in SL. 

That’s even before you start talking about development potential. 

So , Location ? 

[Tommygilf]

23 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

Oh I agree but Toulouse are a non heartland club so some get all hot & flustered when they are even mentioned.

There's been a professional RL presence in Toulouse longer than there has in Cumbria. 

Oh and Toulouse is the 4th most populous city in France in a wider region steeped in RL. Its the French version of Leeds in many ways. 

[Oxford]

It is interesting how often people get annoyed with posts they don't agree with.

As usual there is more that we share than seperates us.

I have no doubt that IMG will prove effective. I've even less doubt, if that's possible, that if anything makes RL progress it won't be a restructure or silly criteria to improve clubs. I think those eminate from dissatisfaction from within, finger pointing and a blame culture.

Edited November 27, 2022 by Oxford

[Tommygilf]

3 hours ago, GeordieSaint said:

Purely my opinion but only 5 clubs justify a Cat A IMO - Wigan, Saints, Leeds, Wire and Catalan - call these Batch A.

The likes of Hull, Hull KR, Toulouse, and Huddersfield are in the next strata of clubs (Batch B) but will be a strong B but with work to do. The two former in terms of junior development and the latter two in terms of crowds/commercial revenues I would imagine. 

The likes of Salford and Leigh are in the next batch of clubs (Batch C). Lots of work to do to achieve an A but with good potential. 

Castleford, Wakefield, Featherstone, London, possibly Bradford all in the best batch (Batch D) - some stronger than others but significant work to do in multiple areas. You might be able to add the likes of York, Halifax and Newcastle into this cohort - all for different reasons. 

The rest (Batch E) are all long shots… very long shots and would need vast growth across all areas to be in a shot of a Cat A - probably not doable and at best a Cat B is the best they can hope for in the next 10-20yrs. 

So how many of the Batch B-D clubs can realistic achieve a Cat A grade during the 12yr IMG contract period? I am sceptical for many of them to build clubs that look anything remotely like the Wigan and Leeds of this world. 

Yeah I'd go with that assessment generally. 

 

[Wakefield Ram]

6 hours ago, Davo5 said:

But the overall standards wouldn’t drop alarmingly you simply wouldn’t get 1 or 2 teams filling their squads with expensive imports,blowing everyone away & killing the comp.

Last time I looked there were several ex Wath Brow players turning out for Haven,Town & others including Leeds,isn’t that what should be happening & if we have a healthy competitive Championship maybe more of those talented amateur players will make the step up.

Players don't become better players just because they are paid more. 

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, Wakefield Ram said:

Players don't become better players just because they are paid more. 

They generally do if they become full time and are surrounded by other full timers.

Beyond that money only buys quality which is what actually improves other players.

Edited November 27, 2022 by Tommygilf

[Damien]

1 minute ago, Wakefield Ram said:

Players don't become better players just because they are paid more. 

They may well do because they will see RL as a more enticing career proposition and put in the effort accordingly. I'm sure many people in all forms of employment work harder the more they get paid and the more they are rewarded. Conversely, a bog-standard job with little future hardly drives people to improve and better themselves and people have a tendency to go through the motions. I'm not sure why people expect RL players to be so different when it comes to these things.

Thats before the fact that more money helps to attract better players and athletes in the first place.

[Adelaide Tiger]

7 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

Do you include a ' location ' score as we saw last time ? 

Personally I have no issue with a ‘location’ score. But every criteria must give the chance for EVERY club to accrue points.

Therefore I would not ask such a question in isolation.  I would link the question with the following ‘Can your club provide evidence of a strategic plan to increase the visibility of the game to that clubs locality and encourage greater playing participation at all levels’.  Therefore ALL clubs should be able to respond to the question and the issue of a club being outside the heartland will give it only a slight advantage.

Also I would also expect the process to have more than 10 criteria - Harry pointed out at least 9 - therefore ‘locality’ criteria would only be worth 5 to 10 points at most. 

So for example a outpost club like Cornwall might score a 8 or 9 due to location and a strategic plan and a club like Cas might score a 4 or 5 for their strategic plan.

Anyway time to go to work.

[Harry Stottle]

7 hours ago, GeordieSaint said:

Good player pathways are in place. Good finances with broad funding streams (French clubs have an advantage here due to the way the Marie system works). Good ground. Decent support base demonstrated in SL. 

That’s even before you start talking about development potential. 

That's the key word right there in bold, get Toulouse in now before it's to late before they don't exhibit those big crowds and before Fev win the Championship!

[Harry Stottle]

6 hours ago, Davo5 said:

Your first paragraph is the same old rubbish you’ve trotted out repeatedly.

No I’m really not.

How do you know the grading process won’t do that.

And your take on it is correct, don't be soft Dav I repeat it because it is true, tell me it isn't.

[Harry Stottle]

6 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Its the French version of Leeds in many ways. 

In respect of less than 2% of the cities population can bother to support them Tommy.

[Tommygilf]

7 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

In respect of less than 2% of the cities population can bother to support them Tommy.

2% of a big number is larger than 100% of a small one H, as I think IMG may point out to some.

[Davo5]

7 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

And your take on it is correct, don't be soft Dav I repeat it because it is true, tell me it isn't.

No you repeat it because it fits your agenda & giving any credit to one of those “foreign” interlopers doesn’t.

 

[GeordieSaint]

8 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

That's the key word right there in bold, get Toulouse in now before it's to late before they don't exhibit those big crowds and before Fev win the Championship!

It’s not the keyword - it’s just one characteristic to a good rugby league club. 

[Saint Toppy]

On 26/11/2022 at 15:21, Taffy Tiger said:

 I think it is guaranteed that there will be 14 Cat A clubs at some point in the future , even if that means lowering the standards , as the RFL/IMG have already said that this is their goal and to have a closed shop of 14 teams . However , if this will truly only happen if everyone reaches a very high standard , not reduced standards just to have a 14 team top flight by year 20XX, then I agree it would be a fantastic place for the game to be in . Here's hoping !

They've said no such thing at all, in fact just the opposite to some of your comments !!

They've said they want improvements in the standards of clubs and their aim is to have a SL made up of just A License clubs and a Championship of B license clubs. They've never stated an upper or lower limit of numbers, in fact they said they would like to see SL expanded further. So if we get to a point of having 16 A license teams then we could well have a SL with 16 teams in it.

 

[Harry Stottle]

I know what the numbers are and you are misguided Tommy, Leeds should be a marketing mans dream ticket with 812,000 sitting on the doorstep and a mere 13,000 can be bothered to take any interest, there are a lot of 'fallow fields" to work on, and of those who do go that number is diminished even further from the locals by the out of towners such as yourself, by any stretch of the imagination a conversation rate of 1.6% of the target audience is pretty dismall.

I don't think at all that IMG may point this out to anyone, in fact quite the opposite if they can't improve the the figures at Headingley with all the recent success of the club it should be classed as an abject failure.

So why you shout it from the rooftops that Leeds and Toulouse are very similar I have just looked at the figures for Toulouse, The Metro area is over 1M but I will forego that and use the City figures of 497,000 and last year in SL Toulouse averaged 4,974 a return of just 1%. ☹

I was not a marketing man by any stretch of the imagination, but I knew something about strategic area's, sales planning and Target markets Tommy, but if you are happy that both of these clubs are successful and contented with the returns they accomplish and it suits your argument so be it.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Harry Stottle