gingerjon Posted November 30, 2022 Share Posted November 30, 2022 8 minutes ago, Angelic Cynic said: Should we also sing the praises of the other 'lucky' clubs who squeaked the most Stopped reading at this point, TBH. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted November 30, 2022 Share Posted November 30, 2022 Just now, Harry Stottle said: Please answer my question re Academies and the Grading System. You don't control threads Harry. As I have already said a club without an academy can still demonstrate how they can meet the standards and criteria in place and make commitments and give safeguards. If a club can give solid proposals for an academy, with guarantees, then I dont see why they still shouldn't get marks. I would expect any grading criteria to have a whole range of criteria that isn't applicable to all clubs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted November 30, 2022 Share Posted November 30, 2022 (edited) 15 minutes ago, gingerjon said: It should gain you points. Points that are entirely dependent on meeting the standards required to run that academy. Don't meet the standards then you don't get the points. Even if NOT running an Academy was not your choice? This is a good system whereby the rules makers decide who can and cannot do something then penalise them for not doing it! Somewhat Bolshie that Ginger. Edited November 30, 2022 by Harry Stottle 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted November 30, 2022 Share Posted November 30, 2022 15 minutes ago, Angelic Cynic said: Should we also sing the praises of the other 'lucky' clubs who squeaked the most and got the oil of the benefit of time to simply get the 'elite' award again;quicker than Castleford? https://hullkr.co.uk/hull-kr-awarded-elite-academy-licence-until-the-end-of-2027/ https://www.bradfordbulls.co.uk/article/1006/club-statement-on-academy- Anyone would think it was the same old,same old. The same applies around stadium criteria etc. Any club that has made improvements should be applauded. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted November 30, 2022 Share Posted November 30, 2022 2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: Even if NOT running an Academy was not your choice? This is a good system whereby the rules makers decide who can and cannot do something then penalise them for not doing it! Somewhat Bolsie that Ginger. There were minimum standards for the elite academies. That is how it should be. Clubs that don't meet those standards don't get to stick a sign above a gym door and claim they have one. That seems pretty simple to me. Clubs who want to score points based on running an elite academy should probably either meet those criteria straight away or engage with a process to ensure they can. Again. Pretty simple. Assuming, that points will be awarded in grading for a whole raft of community engagement as well as player development, clubs who opt out of running elite academies because they refuse to engage with the process should probably spend time ensuring they will score well in those other areas. Not sure it could be any simpler. 2 1 Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted November 30, 2022 Share Posted November 30, 2022 2 minutes ago, gingerjon said: There were minimum standards for the elite academies. That is how it should be. Clubs that don't meet those standards don't get to stick a sign above a gym door and claim they have one. That seems pretty simple to me. Clubs who want to score points based on running an elite academy should probably either meet those criteria straight away or engage with a process to ensure they can. Again. Pretty simple. Assuming, that points will be awarded in grading for a whole raft of community engagement as well as player development, clubs who opt out of running elite academies because they refuse to engage with the process should probably spend time ensuring they will score well in those other areas. Not sure it could be any simpler. Very condescendingly put Sir, I will leave London out of this at the moment, do you reckon that Newcastle ticked all the boxes to run an elite academy, much better than say Bradford who has a great history of producing top class players and were initially wiped from having an Academy and Newcastle were allowed one. That's a simple question for you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted November 30, 2022 Share Posted November 30, 2022 37 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: Very condescendingly put Sir, I will leave London out of this at the moment, do you reckon that Newcastle ticked all the boxes to run an elite academy, much better than say Bradford who has a great history of producing top class players and were initially wiped from having an Academy and Newcastle were allowed one. That's a simple question for you. Ah, sorry, now I get it. You're so wounded by the idea that other clubs scored better than Leigh that you have to assume that the system was bent and take offence at any suggestion that it wasn't. Really should have got that before. Just me being slow. Sorry about that. 1 1 Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted November 30, 2022 Share Posted November 30, 2022 33 minutes ago, gingerjon said: Ah, sorry, now I get it. You're so wounded by the idea that other clubs scored better than Leigh that you have to assume that the system was bent and take offence at any suggestion that it wasn't. Really should have got that before. Just me being slow. Sorry about that. Only to be expected that you evade direct questions, I didn't mention Leigh albeit I did mention Newcastle and Bradford for a comparrison but you go ahead and make up your own agenda. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davo5 Posted November 30, 2022 Share Posted November 30, 2022 1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said: Very condescendingly put Sir, I will leave London out of this at the moment, do you reckon that Newcastle ticked all the boxes to run an elite academy, much better than say Bradford who has a great history of producing top class players and were initially wiped from having an Academy and Newcastle were allowed one. That's a simple question for you. How do you know they didn’t ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve oates Posted November 30, 2022 Share Posted November 30, 2022 2 hours ago, Dave T said: I don't believe clubs are not trying, far from it. But I do believe that different people think different things are important. Having a framework of Standards, consistency and holding people accountable can lead to very different results. Think of it is as regulation - businesses won't always act in the way that they perhaps should. We see that in every industry. It's important to have (a) a player development system, and it's important to have (b) as comfortable and modern a ground as possible, it is also important to (c) market the club to the local populace and beyond, and (D) important to look carefully at prospective investors who may add to the clubs spending ability. This is what all the clubs try to do. The way they fail is (a)where they simply can't develop many players like Salford or they are in a poor stadium like Castleford, or they aren't getting the crowds like Wakefield whose owner isn't that rich... Rugby League is not an industry, but I do know a number of industrial outfits and they certainly do act according to industrial & commercial regulation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve oates Posted November 30, 2022 Share Posted November 30, 2022 5 hours ago, Man of Kent said: 'These directorial changes are perhaps another clear sign of the sport moving in a new direction in 2023, with club chief executives now set to have less power than ever before.' IMG via Rugby League Commercial calls the shots now. This is a bit like when the Australian Rugby League Commission was brought in to take control of the NRL. You said "codswallop" to me. The idea IMG and the RFL "call the shots now" is really codswallop. I note Ian Lenegan and Ken Davey have not resigned so they will be the ones calling the shots, and are bound to ensure they don't overstep the mark with their fellow SL club owners..... Do you not get it that if any club owner does not like how he is treated or what he is expected to do, that owner may walk and we would lose their significant investment. That would lead to clubs up for sale - but who would buy them if they had no say in the sport and were subservient to the RFL and IMG....... (of all people) Explain please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelic Cynic Posted November 30, 2022 Share Posted November 30, 2022 3 hours ago, Damien said: Any club that has made improvements should be applauded. Absolutely.But some clubs are not allowed scholarships,reserve sides,academies and some have not benefited from Sky money,parachute payments or artificial promotions. Some clubs can and do make improvements, with and without outside help,others don't. Seizing a moment in time to make judgements,after decades of unfairness,isn't fair,so will all clubs be allowed,and encouraged,to reach the requirements as the 3 clubs who were not up to standard for an elite Academy grading were allowed time to improve? 1 1 No reserves,but resilience,persistence and determination are omnipotent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted November 30, 2022 Share Posted November 30, 2022 7 minutes ago, Angelic Cynic said: Absolutely.But some clubs are not allowed scholarships,reserve sides,academies and some have not benefited from Sky money,parachute payments or artificial promotions. Some clubs can and do make improvements, with and without outside help,others don't. Seizing a moment in time to make judgements,after decades of unfairness,isn't fair,so will all clubs be allowed,and encouraged,to reach the requirements as the 3 clubs who were not up to standard for an elite Academy grading were allowed time to improve? Maybe if some clubs hadn't have voluntarily scrapped those things in the past then they'd still have them now. There are many ways to skin a cat. Some clubs chose to scrap things like reserves to plough funds into signing mercenaries to chase promotion, others decided to build sustainably and for the future. It's a bit rich for fans of these clubs to then bleat about not having them when that route backfired. Similarly those moaning about unfairness weren't moaning when for years their club has benefitted from things like parachute payments and receiving enough money to fund a full time team with everyone else receiving a fraction of that and being part time. This unfairness argument only ever seems to apply when it suits. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phiggins Posted November 30, 2022 Share Posted November 30, 2022 4 hours ago, gingerjon said: There were minimum standards for the elite academies. That is how it should be. Clubs that don't meet those standards don't get to stick a sign above a gym door and claim they have one. That seems pretty simple to me. Clubs who want to score points based on running an elite academy should probably either meet those criteria straight away or engage with a process to ensure they can. Again. Pretty simple. Assuming, that points will be awarded in grading for a whole raft of community engagement as well as player development, clubs who opt out of running elite academies because they refuse to engage with the process should probably spend time ensuring they will score well in those other areas. Not sure it could be any simpler. I don’t know the merits of Leigh’s case, or Salford’s for that matter (weren’t they refused as well). But at the time, it seemed a case where the RFL had set a number of academies that they wanted, and picked the best x number of the applications. Then flexed when there was fallout to Hull KR and Cas losing their licenses. There should be minimum standards, but the initial process of setting a number and then assessing seems very flawed. (Unless i’m misremembering, in which case ignore the whole post!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henson Park Old Firm Posted November 30, 2022 Share Posted November 30, 2022 https://www.swlondoner.co.uk/sport/25112022-london-broncos-the-rise-fall-and-journey-back-to-the-super-league Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man of Kent Posted November 30, 2022 Share Posted November 30, 2022 2 hours ago, steve oates said: You said "codswallop" to me. The idea IMG and the RFL "call the shots now" is really codswallop. I note Ian Lenegan and Ken Davey have not resigned so they will be the ones calling the shots, and are bound to ensure they don't overstep the mark with their fellow SL club owners..... Do you not get it that if any club owner does not like how he is treated or what he is expected to do, that owner may walk and we would lose their significant investment. That would lead to clubs up for sale - but who would buy them if they had no say in the sport and were subservient to the RFL and IMG....... (of all people) Explain please? Lenegan has also resigned, chief. The plain fact is Super League is no longer controlled by Super League club directors but directors of Rugby League Commercial. What this means is the Super League clubs - who still remain in the control of the owners, of course, no change there at all - are legally subservient to the new set-up. That’s the deal. A power shift. If it helps, bone up about the ARL Commission. It’s not the same as the IMG deal (as the RFL will still be the overall governing body) but about ten years ago the NRL clubs took a similar step back by handing over direct control of the NRL to a new body independent of the clubs. In this case, the Super League clubs have essentially handed over control of Super League to IMG via Rugby League Commercial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smudger06 Posted November 30, 2022 Share Posted November 30, 2022 IMG = Somewhat successful regarding Pro Basketball..... We can't be following this model because there is simply not the participant numbers like Basketball and football at the social / recreational level, Basketball is even easier to jack up than football....I.e smaller playing area, can be played on a multitude of surfaces, can be played indoor and outdoor, smaller player numbers required to play a game, non contact/ semi contact....less injury risk. Etc. When you have that mass involvement it's a short and easy step to Amateur Club level game and then feed the player development pathways. All this equals the luxury of massive grass roots - infrastructure. Meaning its much easier to position an elite tier or two above it all.....think EuroLeague and EuroCup comps have like 12 or 13 national leagues underpinning them....so basically IMG can stick its proposals where the sun doesn't shine. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smudger06 Posted November 30, 2022 Share Posted November 30, 2022 1 minute ago, Smudger06 said: IMG = Somewhat successful regarding Pro Basketball..... We can't be following this model because there is simply not the participant numbers like Basketball and football at the social / recreational level, Basketball is even easier to jack up than football....I.e smaller playing area, can be played on a multitude of surfaces, can be played indoor and outdoor, smaller player numbers required to play a game, non contact/ semi contact....less injury risk. Etc. When you have that mass involvement it's a short and easy step to Amateur Club level game and then feed the player development pathways. All this equals the luxury of massive grass roots - infrastructure. Meaning its much easier to position an elite tier or two above it all.....think EuroLeague and EuroCup comps have like 12 or 13 national leagues underpinning them....so basically IMG can stick its proposals where the sun doesn't shine. That been the case, it's my opinion we must follow the Gridiron model as per the NRL do more and more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smudger06 Posted November 30, 2022 Share Posted November 30, 2022 IMG; making an unbelievably messy organisation even messier !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted November 30, 2022 Share Posted November 30, 2022 3 hours ago, Davo5 said: How do you know they didn’t ? What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted November 30, 2022 Share Posted November 30, 2022 5 hours ago, Harry Stottle said: do you reckon that Newcastle ticked all the boxes to run an elite academy, much better than say Bradford Having experience of the Bradford academy in the past few years, it really wouldn't surprise me if Newcastle was better, Harry. And that's before you get to the point that there are 3 (now 4) elite academies attached to a Super League club within a 30 minute drive from Odsal. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted November 30, 2022 Share Posted November 30, 2022 3 hours ago, steve oates said: It's important to have (a) a player development system, and it's important to have (b) as comfortable and modern a ground as possible, it is also important to (c) market the club to the local populace and beyond, and (D) important to look carefully at prospective investors who may add to the clubs spending ability. This is what all the clubs try to do. The way they fail is (a)where they simply can't develop many players like Salford or they are in a poor stadium like Castleford, or they aren't getting the crowds like Wakefield whose owner isn't that rich... Rugby League is not an industry, but I do know a number of industrial outfits and they certainly do act according to industrial & commercial regulation... I would suggest there is a lot more to running a top club than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted November 30, 2022 Share Posted November 30, 2022 2 minutes ago, Smudger06 said: IMG; making an unbelievably messy organisation even messier !!! They aren't. Rugby League Commercial will be the new overseers, just as the ARLC is for the NRL. It won't be the other 11 club chairmen on the board deciding if Leigh get half funding, or Toulouse have to pay for their flights, or if Bradford should get half their central funding, or if Toronto exist. That is a major step forwards. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted November 30, 2022 Share Posted November 30, 2022 1 minute ago, Tommygilf said: They aren't. Rugby League Commercial will be the new overseers, just as the ARLC is for the NRL. It won't be the other 11 club chairmen on the board deciding if Leigh get half funding, or Toulouse have to pay for their flights, or if Bradford should get half their central funding, or if Toronto exist. That is a major step forwards. I agree. Removing conflicts of interest is a positive starter. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted November 30, 2022 Share Posted November 30, 2022 3 minutes ago, Dave T said: I agree. Removing conflicts of interest is a positive starter. Its arguably what Rugby League has needed for decades in terms of governance. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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