37 of 42 back IMG’s proposal

[The Masked Poster]

2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

PS @The Masked Poster read further down the thread and have seen you have no particular club you support, nor in that case do you speak from expierience.

I care for the game, not individual clubs. I believe that makes me a better judge than you, who only seems to give a damn about how Leigh are doing. 

[Chrispmartha]

3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

If there is one thing I agree with you Chris is that the structure will definatley in time become a closed shop, in fact I think this 'Grading' system will be a charade to mask the real intentions of it's design.

But I do have the expierience of my club being locked out, I watched forlornly as the fans not only from my club but others drifted away from the game, I will confidently predict the same would happen again, you have obviously given a lot of thought - I take it - to your hypothetical licence criteria, unfortunately I can see nothing but good will in that a club from below SL especially a British Heartland Club would ever acheive promotion unless it would be by on field performance and conversely an incumbant of SL would really have to do something drastic to be demoted, as I doubt that the division would increase in number, as long as there is a pot to share out.

Good on you in your professional career, I honestly would like to be made aware of your personal pathway if you would care to PM me, I find it really interesting to listen to people's success stories.

I’ve not given it that much thought, well not as much as I hope IMG has.

You are obviously looking at it from your own club’s perspective and experience which is fine and Natural but maybe theres championship clubs that look at Leigh and Fev just trying to buy their way into SL because theres only one criteria into getting into SL thst think the current system is unfair.

My career story isn’t that interesting to be honest, I learned my craft, then set myself a goal of being an employer rather than employee and worked hard at making that happen. Im not super successful in fact i could probably earn more money working for someone else but i find what i fo more rewarding (and more stressful)

[Harry Stottle]

23 minutes ago, The Masked Poster said:

Club buying championship by getting a full time squad, also not a serious plan. 

In Leigh's case previously I will wholeheartedly agree with you, but Mr Beaumont threw away what had gone before and last year formulated his plan to acheive and maintain SL status, the first year of that plan has gone 2 more to go.

 

[Chrispmartha]

5 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

PS @The Masked Poster read further down the thread and have seen you have no particular club you support, nor in that case do you speak from expierience.

He dors however dpeak with no club loyalty or bias, which csn be more beneficial than the experience you talk of

[Harry Stottle]

3 minutes ago, The Masked Poster said:

Anonymity? I suppose your name is actually Aristotle then?

I don't support a club, England RL I suppose. 

And what exactly is your experience of being 'locked out'?

Given that you seem to be on your third spell in SL in a not too long period of time, it seems a very strange method of locking things out. Maybe it's one where you aren't actually locked out at all? Who knows 

Then if you have to ask those questions, I will terminate our conversation now, thanks for your input.

[Chrispmartha]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

In Leigh's case previously I will wholeheartedly agree with you, but Mr Beaumont threw away what had gone before and last year formulated his plan to acheive and maintain SL status, the first year of that plan has gone 2 more to go.

 

Which is what can happen with licensing except maybe not by just buying a league totle win in the first year.

its not a criticism your club did what it needed to within the framework set.

[Harry Stottle]

1 minute ago, Chrispmartha said:

He dors however dpeak with no club loyalty or bias, which csn be more beneficial than the experience you talk of

Surely in your buisness life you have had to expierence mishaps to learn from them it is all part of the learning curve.

[The Masked Poster]

3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Then if you have to ask those questions, I will terminate our conversation now, thanks for your input.

Fair enough although I have no idea of your logic here.

You talk about being locked out, despite being in the third spell in SL. Pretty inconsistent lockout that. But whatever, all the best. 

[Chrispmartha]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

Surely in your buisness life you have had to expierence mishaps to learn from them it is all part of the learning curve.

My business life is not comparable to a sports club/league structure.

You are a fan of a club, club owners have vested interests in their own clubs, both mean it’s not easy to take a rational look at rhe bigger picture, which is why IMG has been brought in in the first place

[Harry Stottle]

Last word on it.

Should I really be bothered by what happens below SL, my club are a member of it and have the opportunity to secure a place in it going forward it is up to the management to secure the position.

But I care very much what happens in the game as a whole, I do think the stick and carrot approach of SL status is a driving force that raises the standards of the Championship if it is taken away then I fear that it will have adverse consequences, standards will drop, fans will drift away and it will be a repeat of the last Licencing period, I will challenge anyone to tell me that standards did not approve when the closed shop was dropped and P&R was reintroduced.

[Harry Stottle]

11 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

My business life is not comparable to a sports club/league structure.

You are a fan of a club, club owners have vested interests in their own clubs, both mean it’s not easy to take a rational look at rhe bigger picture, which is why IMG has been brought in in the first place

Last prediction Chris, IMG will not see out the 12 year agreement.

[Saint Toppy]

5 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

If there is one thing I agree with you Chris is that the structure will definatley in time become a closed shop, in fact I think this 'Grading' system will be a charade to mask the real intentions of it's design.

 

If the new structure means a SL with all A grade license clubs, all financially stable & viable, all playing in good quality modern stadia, all with good academies producing good quality youngsters year after year and giving them opportunities for 1st team rugby, and then a Championship with all B grade license clubs all improving themselves year after year with the aim of getting an A license - then what's wrong with that ?

With a P&R system based purely on 'on field' results all you get is a group of yo-yo clubs, most of which spend money they can't afford to win promotion and then go straight back down and end up in a financial mess. Only to then do it all again in the coming years. Thats not good for those clubs and not good for the sport as a whole.

It seems to me that people primarily want to maintain the status quo of P&R purely for sentimental reasons, to see a club to get their 1 season of glory in SL, regardless of the longer term effects it has on that club.

Something has to change, the current structure offers little opportunity for the sport to grow and attract further investment. With P&R you'll always get a league of 'have's and have nots' surely you can see the longer term benefit of having individual league made up of clubs who are all have's, where they cann all compete financially on & off the pitch ?

[Chrispmartha]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

Last word on it.

Should I really be bothered by what happens below SL, my club are a member of it and have the opportunity to secure a place in it going forward it is up to the management to secure the position.

But I care very much what happens in the game as a whole, I do think the stick and carrot approach of SL status is a driving force that raises the standards of the Championship if it is taken away then I fear that it will have adverse consequences, standards will drop, fans will drift away and it will be a repeat of the last Licencing period, I will challenge anyone to tell me that standards did not approve when the closed shop was dropped and P&R was reintroduced.

no one is taking that carrot away though, that's the point you seem to be missing.

You say you care for the championship clubs but are happy with a situation where a club such as yours can just buy a title because currently winning the league is the only criteria for entry to SL

[Chrispmartha]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

Last prediction Chris, IMG will not see out the 12 year agreement.

maybe not and it will be down to the self serving clubs with no interest outside of what's best for them

[Chrispmartha]

Question for Harry then, what is it you want to see, the same as what's going on now or something different?

Do you think the current system is working?

 

And also I take it you were against Leigh playing in SL in 2021 when they didn't win the right to on the field?

Edited November 25, 2022 by Chrispmartha

[Tubby]

36 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

no one is taking that carrot away though, that's the point you seem to be missing.

You say you care for the championship clubs but are happy with a situation where a club such as yours can just buy a title because currently winning the league is the only criteria for entry to SL

I do think the carrot is rather more difficult to get a bite of with the disparity in funding between SL and Championship.  It is difficult to put together the infrastructure to gain a higher grade than a club who has central funding differential of such magnitude.

You mentioned earlier about Leigh and Fev having only one criteria to achieve SL status, that being on-field.  Forgive my forthrighness, but this seems disingenuous in that it suggests, both of those clubs have done nothing to improve their off-field operations during this period of P&R.  That is not true.

I think the new proposals have potential to improve standards overall, but to suggest it's the only way seems a rather subjective view.  We've seen how far potential can get you with many clubs over the years, sometimes it can be realised and often it can't, potential is just potential and in someways that's an intangible premise.

Ultimately, this system will make it very difficult for lower league clubs to be graded above SL clubs, purely due to the financial strength of central funding.  But in ten years time we can discuss what a success/failure it has been.

[Chrispmartha]

3 minutes ago, Tubby said:

I do think the carrot is rather more difficult to get a bite of with the disparity in funding between SL and Championship.  It is difficult to put together the infrastructure to gain a higher grade than a club who has central funding differential of such magnitude.

You mentioned earlier about Leigh and Fev having only one criteria to achieve SL status, that being on-field.  Forgive my forthrighness, but this seems disingenuous in that it suggests, both of those clubs have done nothing to improve their off-field operations during this period of P&R.  That is not true.

I think the new proposals have potential to improve standards overall, but to suggest it's the only way seems a rather subjective view.  We've seen how far potential can get you with many clubs over the years, sometimes it can be realised and often it can't, potential is just potential and in someways that's an intangible premise.

Ultimately, this system will make it very difficult for lower league clubs to be graded above SL clubs, purely due to the financial strength of central funding.  But in ten years time we can discuss what a success/failure it has been.

It’s not disingenious because that is the current entry to SL

[Tubby]

4 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

It’s not disingenious because that is the current entry to SL

It is, perhaps I saw something inferred which wasn't there.  But the subject of this discussion is that this proposed grading is needed to increase the of-field standards, whereas I believe standards for the two clubs mentioned have improved during P&R.

[phiggins]

56 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

Question for Harry then, what is it you want to see, the same as what's going on now or something different?

Do you think the current system is working?

 

And also I take it you were against Leigh playing in SL in 2021 when they didn't win the right to on the field?

I'm a Leigh fan, and I was against Leigh playing in SL in 2021. Thought London should get the place, as the team that Toronto had replaced. Then after a few weeks of the season, I was even more against it!

[Chrispmartha]

38 minutes ago, Tubby said:

It is, perhaps I saw something inferred which wasn't there.  But the subject of this discussion is that this proposed grading is needed to increase the of-field standards, whereas I believe standards for the two clubs mentioned have improved during P&R.

They have but they would have been nder licensing, and its not just about championship clubs, lower grade SL clubs need to hogher their standards to stay in, regardless of on field results, which is a point some are forgetting 

[Oxford]

15 hours ago, Gav Wilson said:

If standards aren't maintained then of course they will. 

Oh, I see!

 

14 hours ago, Blind side johnny said:

Quite the opposite if I have read the IMG documentation correctly. It isn't a ratchet type process - clubs have to continually maintain their standards, that's the whole point.

Category A is exempt from relegation which would not support your argument. If you look at how Ofsted inspections work (or most importantly don't) the idea that an organisation exempt from the worst consequence of standards will need to or will keep up its standards is illogical.

The assumption that category A will, or that without other huge changes the other organisations can achieve A status after being placed in other categories is what the exemption is based on.

I am also amazed at the number of posters who are normally quite cynical of, and suspicious about changes and their implications who seem to have bought into this so completely.

To me it simply reflects a stitch up, whoever voted for it and whoever supports it.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Chrispmartha said:

Question for Harry then, what is it you want to see, the same as what's going on now or something different?

Do you think the current system is working?

 

And also I take it you were against Leigh playing in SL in 2021 when they didn't win the right to on the field?

As I said Chris, I have done with this subject concerning future proposals for the time being, no doubt it will raise it's head again.

But seeing you ask me a question from the past which I can answer assuringly I will address that, I was totally against Leigh accepting the invitation my choice as I stated at the time was Toulouse, but then what proceeded to happen with the reduced funding I would have walked away completely (irrespective of what Mr Beaumont said with his totally misguided "Super League Ready" which again I stated they were nowhere near) and let SL face the wrath of Sky by not being able to complete the TV contract and presumably suffer financial penalties.

See you again in another subject.

[Chrispmartha]

42 minutes ago, Tubby said:

It is, perhaps I saw something inferred which wasn't there.  But the subject of this discussion is that this proposed grading is needed to increase the of-field standards, whereas I believe standards for the two clubs mentioned have improved during P&R.

Also look at this way, yes Leigh and Fev have put other stuff in place but maybe if it wasn't just about finishing top Leigh or Fev could have put some of that money spent on stacking their team with overseas players and buying a title the money could have gone into other long term aspects of the club

[Chrispmartha]

4 minutes ago, Oxford said:

Oh, I see!

 

Category A is exempt from relegation which would not support your argument. If you look at how Ofsted inspections work (or most importantly don't) the idea that an organisation exempt from the worst consequence of standards will need to or will keep up its standards is illogical.

The assumption that category A will, or that without other huge changes the other organisations can achieve A status after being placed in other categories is what the exemption is based on.

I am also amazed at the number of posters who are normally quite cynical of, and suspicious about changes and their implications who seem to have bought into this so completely.

To me it simply reflects a stitch up, whoever voted for it and whoever supports it.

That doesn't answer the point you made about it being clear that a Cat A club can't lose that status.

 

What's a stitch up about it? maybe people are buying into it because the current status quo isn't moving the game forward, actually quite the opposite.

 

So Ill ask you the same question as Harry, what would you do? leave it the same?

[Davo5]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Last word on it.

 

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Last prediction Chris, IMG will not see out the 12 year agreement.

 

15 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

As I said Chris, I have done with this subject concerning future proposals for the time being, no doubt it will raise it's head again.

 

See you again in another subject.

You’ll be back,more comebacks than your old mate starbug