RLWC Attendance-O-Meter

[Jim from Oz]

Not sure where this Twitter person is getting his or her information from, but £40 million seems to be the breakeven figure… So we need £40 million to break even - and anything over that is a profit for the IRL ??

or maybe, as some posters have speculated, the IRL has already received some sort of fee?

it is all a bit vague… IIRC a week or so ago Mick Hogan was saying on Twitter this was the most highest revenue raising rugby league World Cup ever.

https://twitter.com/TheGameCaller/status/1583093291826163713

 

[ghost crayfish]

 I imagine there have been a lot of additional costs associated with the 12-month delay. Given the circumstances, a profit of any kind would be a good development. As with any RLWC, it's about building on the momentum it generates as much as it is about the tournament itself. To that end, the sport has almost entirely failed following both 2013 and 2017 tournaments.

Here's hoping this time around, a strong, coherent international calendar is about to be announced, and the IMG proposals can help the game in England capitalise on the lift in exposure the sport is getting now. If England wins the thing, as is a very real possibility, it could all line up perfectly. 

[The Rocket]

6 hours ago, Madrileño said:

How much profit did you expect it to make, and based on what? 

 

5 hours ago, Dave T said:

That's what it's based on.

Not to mention the other day we were told that revenue from tickets sold had already passed 2013 by 1m pound " with 55 matches to go ".

Hogan also shared positive news on the financial front - with this World Cup already the highest-grossing competition of all-time for ticket sales, with 55 matches still to go.

“This year’s tournament has now generated over £1m more than the 2013 total in ticket sales," he said. "There are still 56 matches to sell so we’re only just getting started.”

Struggling to break-even ????

 

 

[Coastal_Geordie]

15 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

 

Not to mention the other day we were told that revenue from tickets sold had already passed 2013 by 1m pound " with 55 matches to go ".

Hogan also shared positive news on the financial front - with this World Cup already the highest-grossing competition of all-time for ticket sales, with 55 matches still to go.

“This year’s tournament has now generated over £1m more than the 2013 total in ticket sales," he said. "There are still 56 matches to sell so we’re only just getting started.”

Struggling to break-even ????

 

 

Costs must be significantly higher.  Remember this is 3 x World Cups with the Wheelchair and Womens effectively being subsided by the government grant and to an extent the mens.

Marketing etc costs will be more but general inflation particularly travel/accommodation/feeding the various teams will be eye watering I expect.

[Dave T]

6 hours ago, Madrileño said:

I wasn't really asking you. It was a reply to Jim from Oz, whose post I quoted. 

But.... did you really believe that stuff? 

Most of the venue cities (well... towns!) don't really seem to very engaged with the tournament at all. One or 2 are, but most of them seem to be making a token effort at best. 

 

Which bits are not true? 

[Dave T]

18 minutes ago, Coastal_Geordie said:

Costs must be significantly higher.  Remember this is 3 x World Cups with the Wheelchair and Womens effectively being subsided by the government grant and to an extent the mens.

Marketing etc costs will be more but general inflation particularly travel/accommodation/feeding the various teams will be eye watering I expect.

But all that stuff can be funded because we attracted £15m from government to cover costs. 

We don't know how much was invested in 2013, because it wasn't announced, which suggests pretty much zero. 

[Dave T]

39 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

 

Not to mention the other day we were told that revenue from tickets sold had already passed 2013 by 1m pound " with 55 matches to go ".

Hogan also shared positive news on the financial front - with this World Cup already the highest-grossing competition of all-time for ticket sales, with 55 matches still to go.

“This year’s tournament has now generated over £1m more than the 2013 total in ticket sales," he said. "There are still 56 matches to sell so we’re only just getting started.”

Struggling to break-even ????

 

 

If this tournament doesn't provide money for international development then it is no more than.a vanity project. 

If this loses money, then we are back to 2000 territory. 

[Just Browny]

49 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

 

Not to mention the other day we were told that revenue from tickets sold had already passed 2013 by 1m pound " with 55 matches to go ".

Hogan also shared positive news on the financial front - with this World Cup already the highest-grossing competition of all-time for ticket sales, with 55 matches still to go.

“This year’s tournament has now generated over £1m more than the 2013 total in ticket sales," he said. "There are still 56 matches to sell so we’re only just getting started.”

Struggling to break-even ????

 

 

Yeah for a single event it doesn't matter if we have raised £15bn in revenue if we have spent £15bn on the running costs.

I thought the 'struggling to break even' bit was odd because it was in the title but I didn't see a quote in the article itself. 

[Dave T]

Just now, Just Browny said:

Yeah for a single event it doesn't matter if we have raised £15bn in revenue if we have spent £15bn on the running costs.

I thought the 'struggling to break even' bit was odd because it was in the title but I didn't see a quote in the article itself. 

Yes, that was odd, however he did make a ramble on his twitter the other day saying about breaking even which was acknowledged the other day. 

HKB told me it was obvious he didn't mean that and we were to deliver a surplus for the IRL - something he now says isn't the case and we are stupid for even thinking we may make a profit. 

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

8 hours ago, Dave T said:

 

I'm very confused about the complete contradiction in these two posts just days apart. 

Is this a shared account between Jon Dutton and Mick Hogan? 

So, about this bridge? 

I’ve learned something in the last 24 hours

When the facts change, I change my mind - what do you do? 

[Dave T]

4 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

I’ve learned something in the last 24 hours

When the facts change, I change my mind - what do you do? 

I'll tell you what I don't do - make smart-ass comments to people who had exactly the same view as you ("I have a bridge to sell you" ). 

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

Just now, Dave T said:

I'll tell you what I don't do - make smart-ass comments to people who had exactly the same view as you ("I have a bridge to sell you" ). 

Mate, you really do take this place a little too seriously 

[Just Browny]

9 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

I’ve learned something in the last 24 hours

When the facts change, I change my mind - what do you do? 

Come on mate you can do better than this. Your second post was very condescending towards people who thought the same as you supposedly did two days earlier.

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Mate, you really do take this place a little too seriously 

Read it in whatever tone you like. 

 

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

6 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

Come on mate you can do better than this. Your second post was very condescending towards people who thought the same as you supposedly did two days earlier.

11 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

Come on mate you can do better than this. Your second post was very condescending towards people who thought the same as you supposedly did two days earlier.

To be honest I found it mildly amusing, it didn’t go through 3 drafts and an editorial committee! Look, I’m not entirely sure there’s a huge need to justify that on an Internet forum full of wind-ups, the odd grumpy middle aged man and plenty of occasional nonsensical opinions but if I’ve hurt anyone’s feelings I’m very happy to apologise…  

Yesterday I worked out the likely nature of the deal cut by the organisers with the Government, based on stuff that’s been said in the last 24 hours. C’est la vie! 

[Mattrhino]

12 hours ago, Dave T said:

 

Worrying things in that article. To go from a £4m profit with cheap tickets and now be struggling to break even with hugely increased prices and £15m of costs covered is very worrying. 

I hope they are being economical with the truth and we are doing what the likes of RU do and have a fee to the world body, I. E. Guaranteed profit for them. 

It's interesting that Dutton just keeps justifying the price and saying it is right. That's fine - but if you are right, it suggests something else is wrong. Just keeping insisting you are not wrong is doing nothing to fill grounds, and demonstrates the lack of flexibility that has probably got us to where we are. 

And claiming your prices are in line with SL when you're charging £70 for seats at Saints that are £31 for a SL game is misleading. 

Not sure where the money is going. Because it sure ain't going on any entertainment or festivities on game days.

[Dave T]

Just now, Mattrhino said:

Not sure where the money is going. Because it sure ain't going on any entertainment or festivities on game days.

Yeah, it hardly looks like we are smashing the cash left, right and centre. 

Sure, there will be very substantial costs, but there have been for previous World Cup's that have made profit. 

[Just Browny]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

Yeah, it hardly looks like we are smashing the cash left, right and centre. 

Sure, there will be very substantial costs, but there have been for previous World Cup's that have made profit. 

I was crawling down the M62 alongside the Ireland team bus yesterday and it looked very standard.

[Jim from Oz]

OKAY, so back on topic: What is the latest on ticket sales for ENG v FRANCE ?

Are we going to get an actual long-promised first RLWC 2021(22) sellout?

And hopefully a good five-figure crowd for AUS v SCOTLAND too !

[Dave T]

7 minutes ago, Jim from Oz said:

OKAY, so back on topic: What is the latest on ticket sales for ENG v FRANCE ?

Are we going to get an actual long-promised first RLWC 2021(22) sellout?

And hopefully a good five-figure crowd for AUS v SCOTLAND too !

Eng v France has been running at less than 5k for a few weeks now. Earlier this week we got record sales for it, and we're below 3k.

Not sold out yet, fingers crossed for today. Its very slow progress on that one, and tbh I think it's possibly a case of people routing funds towards the semi and the final. 

[GeordieSaint]

13 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Eng v France has been running at less than 5k for a few weeks now. Earlier this week we got record sales for it, and we're below 3k.

Not sold out yet, fingers crossed for today. Its very slow progress on that one, and tbh I think it's possibly a case of people routing funds towards the semi and the final. 

It won’t sell out - be about 2k short of the max attendance. 

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

8 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

It won’t sell out - be about 2k short of the max attendance. 

Yeah it’s the pricey ones left mainly 

[Toby Chopra]

50 minutes ago, Dave T said:

If this tournament doesn't provide money for international development then it is no more than.a vanity project. 

If this loses money, then we are back to 2000 territory. 

So I've been mulling this over.

I think it IS possible for this to be the highest grossing World Cup ever in nominal cash terms, while at the same time only just about breaking even. 

The last world cup here was 9 years ago so in cash terms it's quite possible that costs are 30% - or more - higher than then. Cumulative inflation, supercharged in last year or so, more teams, more training and hotel venues, Womens and wheelchair tournament (where hopefully hotels and training camps are of the same quality as the men), a better standard of venues, many of which aren't rugby league owned-grounds. The cancellation will inevitably also have added costs.

All that could, in theory, add up to cancelling out the rise in ticket receipts in cash terms, even accounting for the government grant. 

That's where the slightly disappointing attendances really have an affect - those missing 3-4000 people in the second and third tier group games are basically where the profit disappears.

While obviously disappointing, would only breaking even render the tournament only a vanity project. Absolutely not in my mind. 

Firstly, I can't think of a single team sport with aspirations of growth and boosting it's international profile that that doesn't hold a World Cup. We'd be throwing in the towel properly if we didn't strive to put it on, even if no profit is made. I doubt the netball or hockey world cups make much, if any, money but they are still the focal points of those sports, which everyone strives to be part of. We can't give that up.         

 Secondly, even if there's not much money to distribute to the IRL, to impact on rugby league in the UK, especially with wall-to-wall TV coverage on the BBC is still going to be huge. If England get to the final, it'll probably be the biggest TV audience for RL in modern times. The boost to the game here will be huge, and hopefully with IMG steering the tiler we'll actually make something of it.

And if France 2025 had the same result - no profit but a gamechanging boost to RL's profile there - then I'd be happy with that (a profit as well of course would be even better).

[FearTheVee]

Maybe we should have some press releases celebrating this as the most expensive World Cup ever rather than the highest grossing.

Highest grossing means nothing if we don't make a profit or have done something truly different in terms of how we have invested in the tournament.

Looks like we may achieve neither.

Perhaps some truths will be told after the event has finished so as not to dampen the enthusiasm - who knows how many millions were lost to the Australians, sorry I mean one year delay.

[Dave T]

8 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

So I've been mulling this over.

I think it IS possible for this to be the highest grossing World Cup ever in nominal cash terms, while at the same time only just about breaking even. 

The last world cup here was 9 years ago so in cash terms it's quite possible that costs are 30% - or more - higher than then. Cumulative inflation, supercharged in last year or so, more teams, more training and hotel venues, Womens and wheelchair tournament (where hopefully hotels and training camps are of the same quality as the men), a better standard of venues, many of which aren't rugby league owned-grounds. The cancellation will inevitably also have added costs.

All that could, in theory, add up to cancelling out the rise in ticket receipts in cash terms, even accounting for the government grant. 

That's where the slightly disappointing attendances really have an affect - those missing 3-4000 people in the second and third tier group games are basically where the profit disappears.

While obviously disappointing, would only breaking even render the tournament only a vanity project. Absolutely not in my mind. 

Firstly, I can't think of a single team sport with aspirations of growth and boosting it's international profile that that doesn't hold a World Cup. We'd be throwing in the towel properly if we didn't strive to put it on, even if no profit is made. I doubt the netball or hockey world cups make much, if any, money but they are still the focal points of those sports, which everyone strives to be part of. We can't give that up.         

 Secondly, even if there's not much money to distribute to the IRL, to impact on rugby league in the UK, especially with wall-to-wall TV coverage on the BBC is still going to be huge. If England get to the final, it'll probably be the biggest TV audience for RL in modern times. The boost to the game here will be huge, and hopefully with IMG steering the tiler we'll actually make something of it.

And if France 2025 had the same result - no profit but a gamechanging boost to RL's profile there - then I'd be happy with that (a profit as well of course would be even better).

I can absolutely see us struggling to break even - my questioning this is more around how we have allowed ourselves to get to this stage. 

IRL have regularly stated that World Cup profits are what funds their activity. They have little else. 

Even accepting the challenging environment and delays etc. to come out of this with no funding for IRL for the next 3 years would be a disaster. That's where my point about whether a hosting fee/guarantee was required. 

I've long said I fear there is a lot of style over substance and I worry that is going to bite us here. As I say, I hope they are being economical with the truth here and future investment is ringfenced, but if not, then we really are in RLWC 2000 territory.