RLWC Attendance-O-Meter

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Just Browny said:

We are not going to beat the Women's Euros and I think the 2013 total looks very difficult now.

Probably the target for each 'round' (either of group matches or actual round) is 70k, on top of the 95k we got in round 1 (which I think we can treat as a nice anomaly). If you got 70k in every subsequent round you'd get to 445k.

For round 2 it looks like we will be pretty much spot on 70k.

For round 3 it looks difficult, we would need Sheffield to match Bolton and Middlesbrough to match Coventry.

Quarter finals are the biggest unknown. Could be anywhere between 40k (v v poor) and 70k (very impressive). Good outcomes would be Wigan 25k, Warrington 14k, Hull 16k, Huddersfield 10k. But has there been any real promotion of these? I've not seen much.

Semis should get to 70k if England don't slip up and the reported 20k sales at Elland Road is correct.

70k for the final should be within reach.

Yes, I think that is clear now. I was hopeful that we would maybe see an uplift in Rd2 repeat games at Leigh, Saints and Wire, but that looks unlikely. And we may see even lower in Rd 3.

Im sure we will get some spin to include the crowds from the 30 non-mens WC games to boost the number, but it looks likely that we will miss every attendance target by some way. 

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, meast said:

The format of the tournament isn't an issue neither is the make up of the teams, the problem is that not enough people are interested in it and of those who are, many are not prepared to pay to attend games, something we see all too regularly in rugby league sadly.

The problem is that hardcore RL just aren't prepared to pay and won't pay the prices being asked, and/or the general public won't pay for something they don't see as a must see, not to be missed event, there's no FOMO in rugby league.

The narrative is, is that the ticket prices were too high and it's caught on and it's running away with things.

One of the issues is that people just keep saying "£20/25 is fine".  Well, it's not the going rate for internationals in England between France and Greece, or Cooks v PNG, or Tonga v Wales etc. 

Nobody has ever paid those prices in good numbers for those games, and they haven't done this year. 

A few RL international tragics like us being prepared to pay that money isn't anywhere near enough. 

We can't just ignore consumer behaviour and keep saying "but it's fine". Because it really, really isn't. 

[Damien]

3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

One of the issues is that people just keep saying "£20/25 is fine".  Well, it's not the going rate for internationals in England between France and Greece, or Cooks v PNG, or Tonga v Wales etc. 

Nobody has ever paid those prices in good numbers for those games, and they haven't done this year. 

A few RL international tragics like us being prepared to pay that money isn't anywhere near enough. 

We can't just ignore consumer behaviour and keep saying "but it's fine". Because it really, really isn't. 

I agree. I know I said a few pages ago that for non-England games there are three categories of stadiums that should be used but that is also true for pricing. There are also more attractive games than these to go to and people will prioritise accordingly.

[Dave T]

6 minutes ago, Damien said:

I agree. I know I said a few pages ago that for non-England games there are three categories of stadiums that should be used but that is also true for pricing. There are also more attractive games than these to go to and people will prioritise accordingly.

Next week, Man City v Sevilla in Champions League. £22 up to £47, sold out. Even cheaper for members. 

Tonga v Cooks @ Middlesborough. £25 up to £70.

Those Man City tickets are far lower than a Prem League game, quite simply because that's the going rate. They don't stubbornly hold the starting price at £45 or so. 

 

[Gerrumonside ref]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Next week, Man City v Sevilla in Champions League. £22 up to £47, sold out. Even cheaper for members. 

Tonga v Cooks @ Middlesborough. £25 up to £70.

Those Man City tickets are far lower than a Prem League game, quite simply because that's the going rate. They don't stubbornly hold the starting price at £45 or so. 

 

Exactly 

[Chrispmartha]

I don’t see why members of clubs weren’t offered a deal, im going to one game at Headingley but might have gone to all 3 if they’d offered me my normal seat at say £75 for all 3

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

7 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Next week, Man City v Sevilla in Champions League. £22 up to £47, sold out. Even cheaper for members. 

Tonga v Cooks @ Middlesborough. £25 up to £70.

Those Man City tickets are far lower than a Prem League game, quite simply because that's the going rate. They don't stubbornly hold the starting price at £45 or so. 

 

Exactly this. I've paid £25 for Man U Europa League tickets before. You price for the demand for your specific product, not because you're able to command a higher price for a different product on a different day. 

[Guest]

Hello uncle George !

[redjonn]

25 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Next week, Man City v Sevilla in Champions League. £22 up to £47, sold out. Even cheaper for members. 

Tonga v Cooks @ Middlesborough. £25 up to £70.

Those Man City tickets are far lower than a Prem League game, quite simply because that's the going rate. They don't stubbornly hold the starting price at £45 or so. 

 

They know their customer better than most hence their choice of ticket price to meet that consumer market.

It would suggest RLWC didn't really understand their consumer market or thought they could bring in a different consumer market.  

[ATLANTISMAN]

6 minutes ago, redjonn said:

They know their customer better than most hence their choice of ticket price to meet that consumer market.

It would suggest RLWC didn't really understand their consumer market or thought they could bring in a different consumer market.  

We were never going to attract many new clients playing too many matches in traditional RL areas.

Simple as that.

P

 

 

[redjonn]

8 minutes ago, ATLANTISMAN said:

We were never going to attract many new clients playing too many matches in traditional RL areas.

Simple as that.

P

 

 

Not disagreeing I was and am just trying to understand decisions for what to me are high prices especially if taking a family to a number of games or at the other end of the price spectrum hospitality.

Whilst the later games and especially the final can be viewed a premium sporting event the earlier rounds are far from premium sporting activities.

[Ragingbull]

1 hour ago, N2022 said:

Was thinking about formats and how they impact on attendance. If we are sticking with 16 team (4x4) format and want a single nation hosting, here's an idea ...

Could they make the seed pot 1 v seed pot 4 games part of double headers ? 

Surely Aus v Sco + NZ v Irl together would have a bigger appeal? Put it in a populous area, don't be overambitious with size of ground and drop the ticket prices to try and get a big crowd in. Obviously they are doing some two-game days with the women's tournament but these are paired with QF. Putting 4 pool games into 2 double headers would reduce the number of dates and venues where you're trying to shift tickets for very one-sided games and there could be greater atmosphere through consolidation.

PLUS ... bit more radical here, you could make these games 25 or 30 mins each way to increase the chances fans stay for pretty much the whole day's play, and simultaneously spare the weakest teams the humiliation etc of a 12-try pasting. Pot 1 teams should still be able to win but not by such a ludicrous margin and their points difference only comes into play if they fluff up against someone else. Equally pot 4 teams taking a narrower defeat here only matters to pot 2 and pot 3 if there's an upset in games between them. In my opinion a good way for pot 4 to play big names in front of a decent crowd in a sensible competition format.

I've go no words!

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Ragingbull said:

I've go no words!

Give Scotland an 80 point head start?

[bamfordsbeans]

It's a great shame that the pricing and venue choice has been plainly wrong.

Unfortunately it'll probably be another 12 years before we get another go.

The game internationally and particularly in this country cannot afford these errors.

[RL Tragic]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

Yes, I think that is clear now. I was hopeful that we would maybe see an uplift in Rd2 repeat games at Leigh, Saints and Wire, but that looks unlikely. And we may see even lower in Rd 3.

Im sure we will get some spin to include the crowds from the 30 non-mens WC games to boost the number, but it looks likely that we will miss every attendance target by some way. 

I think that’s the thing , I will be further disappointed if Dutton comes out and tries to fudge things . For me some people need to face some serious music when it’s all done . 

[RL Tragic]

1 minute ago, bamfordsbeans said:

It's a great shame that the pricing and venue choice has been plainly wrong.

Unfortunately it'll probably be another 12 years before we get another go.

The game internationally and particularly in this country cannot afford these errors.

That’s where my anger comes from for the top brass , it’s no good them saying Sorry 2 weeks in , The boat has been missed . 

[crashmon]

They will blame covid and cost of living crises...

 

[N2022]

49 minutes ago, Ragingbull said:

I've go no words!

I get your view is opposition. I presume it's the different game length that's a step too far, but we are talking about elite world-best pros playing against part-timers so it's hardly a level playing field in the first place. Basically, I am thinking aloud and not sure what I am suggesting is as ridiculous as some will perceive it when you step back and consider other aspects of what is already on offer.

[ATLANTISMAN]

I would be all up for 8 teams and before that a qualifying tournament adding a few more.

Makes total sense and enables one to take matches to new areas.

Automatic 

ENGLAND/AUSTRALIA/FRANCE/NEW ZEALAND/PNG/FIJI/SAMOA/TONGA

Pre Qualifying (Played in WC host country) 

COOK ISLANDS/GREECE/SCOTLAND/IRELAND/WALES/SERBIA/USA/UKRAINE

Qualifying (Any one else) 8 to add to the above (Top 8 qualify) 

 

P 

 

 

[N2022]

39 minutes ago, Leonard said:

Give Scotland an 80 point head start?

Not asking for anyone to have a headstart, just saying that pot 1 should be able to beat pot 4 over 50-60 minutes and that if that format makes it possible for people to enjoy two games in one day it may be marketable. As I say, it isn't a level playing field anyway when you have Tedesco or Watkins against a plumber from Montego Bay.

[N2022]

3 minutes ago, ATLANTISMAN said:

I would be all up for 8 teams and before that a qualifying tournament adding a few more.

Makes total sense and enables one to take matches to new areas.

Automatic 

ENGLAND/AUSTRALIA/FRANCE/NEW ZEALAND/PNG/FIJI/SAMOA/TONGA

Pre Qualifying (Played in WC host country) 

COOK ISLANDS/GREECE/SCOTLAND/IRELAND/WALES/SERBIA/USA/UKRAINE

Qualifying (Any one else) 8 to add to the above (Top 8 qualify) 

 

P 

 

 

Yes - I agree this is a nice idea but the weaker teams have more part-timers and I wonder whether leave from work would be an issue when you have weeks off for qualifying and then maybe more weeks off for a competition proper.

[JonM]

I'm still unconvinced that pricing is the main issue. I don't see that the attendances at expensive games are significantly lower than the cheap games. I don't see grounds with the cheap seats sold out and the expensive seats completely empty, although there is some element of that. Every match I have been to has had long queues for food & drink which is neither cheap, nor high quality. If people are spending £20 on a round, or £20 at McDonalds on the way home, why is £20 too much for the game? 

OTOH, kids tickets for a couple of quid does seem to have resulted in quite a lot of children at games, so maybe there is a pricing thing.

[Odsal Outlaw]

48 minutes ago, ATLANTISMAN said:

I would be all up for 8 teams and before that a qualifying tournament adding a few more.

Makes total sense and enables one to take matches to new areas.

Automatic 

ENGLAND/AUSTRALIA/FRANCE/NEW ZEALAND/PNG/FIJI/SAMOA/TONGA

Pre Qualifying (Played in WC host country) 

COOK ISLANDS/GREECE/SCOTLAND/IRELAND/WALES/SERBIA/USA/UKRAINE

Qualifying (Any one else) 8 to add to the above (Top 8 qualify) 

 

P 

 

 

Isn’t that what happens now? 8 automatic and 8 qualify?

[Odsal Outlaw]

3 hours ago, Damien said:

Double headers? No thanks.

Totally agree. What is the fascination with double headers? Who wants to watch near on 4hrs of RL in October (or any month). I’m a fully fledged fan but one game is enough. I also wonder how many incremental fans  putting on two games actually attracts? 

Edited October 25, 2022 by Odsal Outlaw

[Dave T]

22 minutes ago, JonM said:

I'm still unconvinced that pricing is the main issue. I don't see that the attendances at expensive games are significantly lower than the cheap games. I don't see grounds with the cheap seats sold out and the expensive seats completely empty, although there is some element of that. Every match I have been to has had long queues for food & drink which is neither cheap, nor high quality. If people are spending £20 on a round, or £20 at McDonalds on the way home, why is £20 too much for the game? 

OTOH, kids tickets for a couple of quid does seem to have resulted in quite a lot of children at games, so maybe there is a pricing thing.

No seats are sold out, they are all too expensive. And Saints is probably the perfect illustration of pricing being an issue, with a real visible difference between pricing bands. Flanks of stands and the ends have people in, central blocks empty. 

And your theory on people buying food and drinks at games is flawed - they are the ones going, so pricing less of an issue for them. 

But it isn't simply a case of £25 is too expensive and £15 is fine for example, pricing sensitivity is not simple or linear. It's a question of value, and perceived value. Somebody may be able to afford £25, but it doesn't mean they are compelled to do so. 

I believe saturation - too much choice and too many games in a small area is a big issue, and you won't overcome that with your higher price point. 

The strategy is muddled. They are trying to tap into existing customers attending repeat games - demonstrated by playing at existing RL grounds and playing multiple games there. But they are ignoring the behaviours that these customers demonstrate (buying season tickets/bundles, and value being very important). 

Targeting existing customers, but charging £70 for seats that are normally £31 is muddled for example. 

So it isn't just price is too expensive and lower it and you fill grounds - it is a case of overall sales strategy being muddled - and pricing is a core part of that.