Dave T Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 1 minute ago, Archie Gordon said: I keep trying to understand the break even comment. Both Dutton and Hogan seem to have said that people need to buy the £70 tickets to compensate for the loss made on £25 tickets. Are they saying that every single seat in every ground needs to be sold at an average of £40 to break even? If not, what do they mean? Dutton tends to just say some words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hull Kingston Bronco Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 31 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said: How the hell is this tournament struggling to break even? We’re running a womens and wheelchair comp, come on, to be fair there’s a lot of £££ sunk into this Apparently this site says I "won the day" here on 23rd Jan, 19th Jan, 9th Jan also 13th December, whatever any of that means. Anyway, 4 times in a few weeks? The forum must be going to the dogs - you people need to seriously up your game. Where's Dutoni when you need him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 2 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said: We’re running a womens and wheelchair comp, come on, to be fair there’s a lot of £££ sunk into this We've also had £15m government investment for costs, record sponsorship, record hospitality, record gate receipts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Holt Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 No idea but could their ‘break even’ be against the budget incl. govt funding? I.e break even is actually 15m profit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hull Kingston Bronco Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 9 minutes ago, Dave T said: Well, the sponsorship situation seems a bit weird. Apparently we had record sponsorship and had pretty much sold out, yet we have a really limited number of companies on the advertisements. I recall in 2013 we had a hell of a lot of sponsors even from Down Under taking board spaces. Pepsi Max are meant to be a sponsor, yet they are nowhere to be seen in or out of the ground. The video ref screen last night had new graphics that replaced the cazoo stuff. Many of the sponsors do appear to be service providers. We don't have stuff like beer providers etc. I worry that this is all a sham. They’ve taken 10’s of millions from the Govt. .. if you think a viable objective for this tournament is a large surplus (in effect from Govt. funds) then I’ve a bridge to sell you. That ship sailed 4 years ago. We were offered and gratefully took the lower risk option, in order to run a large tournament and not bankrupt the sport for 2 decades (as we did in 2000) Apparently this site says I "won the day" here on 23rd Jan, 19th Jan, 9th Jan also 13th December, whatever any of that means. Anyway, 4 times in a few weeks? The forum must be going to the dogs - you people need to seriously up your game. Where's Dutoni when you need him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 It could mean currently breakeven. So all future sales are gravy from here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 16 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said: They’ve taken 10’s of millions from the Govt. .. if you think a viable objective for this tournament is a large surplus (in effect from Govt. funds) then I’ve a bridge to sell you. That ship sailed 4 years ago. We were offered and gratefully took the lower risk option, in order to run a large tournament and not bankrupt the sport for 2 decades (as we did in 2000) Come on now. This tournament is absolutely there to deliver funds to IRL. If not, why are we here? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 11 minutes ago, Leonard said: It could mean currently breakeven. So all future sales are gravy from here. That wouldn't match the statement at any level. And apparently if you think this tournament is doing anything other than breaking even you are naive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Will Holt said: No idea but could their ‘break even’ be against the budget incl. govt funding? I.e break even is actually 15m profit? My understanding is that some tournaments like this have a 'cost' to the international governing body. So I think it is feasible that the organisers have to pay IRL £10m irrespective of how well the tournament does. Dutton could be referring to a P&L that already has £10m sunken costs. Edited October 20, 2022 by Dave T 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Decimus Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 1 hour ago, Dave T said: I've only seen the 55k from Gledhill, but maybe somebody else has seen that from elsewhere? To be fair we already knew it was 50k. A Widnesian in Ireland blog What is the best system for Super League? An honest appraisal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 Just now, Maximus Decimus said: To be fair we already knew it was 50k. I hadn't seen a number previously for the final, but that's positive, so hopefully it's not just plucked from his head like most of his claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 14 minutes ago, Dave T said: My understanding is that some tournaments like this have a 'cost' to the international governing body. So I think it is feasible that the organisers have to pay IRL £10m irrespective of how well the tournament does. Dutton could be referring to a P&L that already has £10m sunken costs. Where is the IRL based? I can only see that would benefit in getting the "profit" into a low tax jurisdiction - which I have no issue with. In the same way a multi national might charge a royalty on the name and funnel that money into the Netherlands or Luxembourg. if that isn't the case, they might as well just charge all the profit and a charge on its own makes little sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 17 minutes ago, Dave T said: My understanding is that some tournaments like this have a 'cost' to the international governing body. So I think it is feasible that the organisers have to pay IRL £10m irrespective of how well the tournament does. Dutton could be referring to a P&L that already has £10m sunken costs. That's how the RU World Cup works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 7 minutes ago, Leonard said: Where is the IRL based? I can only see that would benefit in getting the "profit" into a low tax jurisdiction - which I have no issue with. In the same way a multi national might charge a royalty on the name and funnel that money into the Netherlands or Luxembourg. if that isn't the case, they might as well just charge all the profit and a charge on its own makes little sense. I have no idea on tax impacts tbh, but it is in effect a hosting fee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exiled Wiganer Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 There are a lot of ways of calculating profit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 1 minute ago, Exiled Wiganer said: There are a lot of ways of calculating profit. There are, but ultimately, when a CEO of a tournament talks about a comp breaking even, that is a relatively simple point. It isn't a complex financial discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 Just now, Dave T said: I have no idea on tax impacts tbh, but it is in effect a hosting fee. I guess my point is - you charge £10m. If the event makes £8m - I reckon you only get £8m. If it makes £12m - you only get £10m. So unless it is a matter that the IRL simply can't or can't be bothered to be the organiser and effectively writes off any additional "profit" so they don't have to do the nitty gritty - I don't see the point. Tax aside that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 Just now, Leonard said: I guess my point is - you charge £10m. If the event makes £8m - I reckon you only get £8m. If it makes £12m - you only get £10m. So unless it is a matter that the IRL simply can't or can't be bothered to be the organiser and effectively writes off any additional "profit" so they don't have to do the nitty gritty - I don't see the point. Tax aside that is. The IRL gets their £10m either way. It's a cost that the organisers have to pay. In RU for example, NZRU ended up losing tens of millions of NZ$, but World Rugby Union got their money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 (edited) https://www.intrl.sport/annual-reports/ Well - appears to be UK based - so that is that. Accounts are interesting for 2021. There are some hosting fees for 2017 in the RLIF's accounts. I assume they are for before it changed name. Edited October 20, 2022 by Leonard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hull Kingston Bronco Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 30 minutes ago, Dave T said: Come on now. This tournament is absolutely there to deliver funds to IRL. If not, why are we here? “Hi, is that DCMS?” ”Yes, how can we help?” ”Well, we’re deciding between running a scaled-down 10 man Men’s World Cup that might make a surplus, or a 16 team comp with an additional investment in a Women’s comp, Wheelchair comp and other disability sports initiatives. If we did the latter, would you subsidise it?” ”Sure, how would the numbers work?” ”Well, we need you to chip in £20m of taxpayers money, and if all goes to plan we’ll spend £17m on the tournament and keep £3m afterwards. How’s that sound?” ”Sure, the cheques in the post. Have fun!” 1 Apparently this site says I "won the day" here on 23rd Jan, 19th Jan, 9th Jan also 13th December, whatever any of that means. Anyway, 4 times in a few weeks? The forum must be going to the dogs - you people need to seriously up your game. Where's Dutoni when you need him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 2 minutes ago, Dave T said: The IRL gets their £10m either way. It's a cost that the organisers have to pay. In RU for example, NZRU ended up losing tens of millions of NZ$, but World Rugby Union got their money. Unless the organiser takes insurance - if their profit is less than the fee I don;t see how they get the fee. The organiser would just go into administration the leave them to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 2 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said: “Hi, is that DCMS?” ”Yes, how can we help?” ”Well, we’re deciding between running a scaled-down 10 man Men’s World Cup that might make a surplus, or a 16 team comp with an additional investment in a Women’s comp, Wheelchair comp and other disability sports initiatives. If we did the latter, would you subsidise it?” ”Sure, how would the numbers work?” ”Well, we need you to chip in £20m of taxpayers money, and if all goes to plan we’ll spend £17m on the tournament and keep £3m afterwards. How’s that sound?” ”Sure, the cheques in the post. Have fun!” I mean there are plenty of examples of government investment in tournaments that make money for the sport. They also leave a positive legacy for the country - hence the investments. I'm really surprised you aren't aware that sports events have government funding and make money... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 19 minutes ago, Leonard said: Where is the IRL based? It’s literally about three people working from home and a few volunteers. No disrespect to them, they do a great job given their lack of numbers and resources, but it is a really small outfit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hull Kingston Bronco Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 Just now, Dave T said: I mean there are plenty of examples of government investment in tournaments that make money for the sport. They also leave a positive legacy for the country - hence the investments. I'm really surprised you aren't aware that sports events have government funding and make money... I’m aware of it. That’s just not the deal that rugby league cut, because unlike many sports we don’t have the prestige or “outside economic value creation” to offer the Govt. in exchange - unlike the Olympics, football or rugby World Cups. It is what it is. I’d like it to be different, but then I’d also like to be 6’6” with Brad Pitt’s hair and that ain’t gonna happen either. We cut a good deal in the circumstances. 1 Apparently this site says I "won the day" here on 23rd Jan, 19th Jan, 9th Jan also 13th December, whatever any of that means. Anyway, 4 times in a few weeks? The forum must be going to the dogs - you people need to seriously up your game. Where's Dutoni when you need him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 5 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said: “Hi, is that DCMS?” ”Yes, how can we help?” ”Well, we’re deciding between running a scaled-down 10 man Men’s World Cup that might make a surplus, or a 16 team comp with an additional investment in a Women’s comp, Wheelchair comp and other disability sports initiatives. If we did the latter, would you subsidise it?” ”Sure, how would the numbers work?” ”Well, we need you to chip in £20m of taxpayers money, and if all goes to plan we’ll spend £17m on the tournament and keep £3m afterwards. How’s that sound?” ”Sure, the cheques in the post. Have fun!” The RU World Cup in 2015 got £80 million from the government, does your argument apply to them? What about the bid for the women's RU World Cup in 2025 that also has got Government funding? Governments funding events is quite normal. I'm not sure why you think RL is a special case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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