RLWC Attendance-O-Meter

[Sitona]

OK, the NRL grand final was 82k but the season average for the NRL was 15k. The WC final at Old Trafford will be near 75k capacity and average so far is 11k so not much different. 
 

the opening game at this year’s WC had a bigger attendance than the Final in Brisbane in 2017

[roughyed8]

Just wondering if cricket fans are gnashing their teeth in the same way about the banks of empty seat at the T20 World cup games?

[gingerjon]

2 minutes ago, roughyed8 said:

Just wondering if cricket fans are gnashing their teeth in the same way about the banks of empty seat at the T20 World cup games?

Not yet. They might if the knock out games are played to venues with lots of empty seats but no one seems that bothered yet. It's been a criticism when tournaments and games are played in the UAE and literally nobody turns up.

A key distinction, though, is that the big money for these tournaments is always the broadcast deal with India. So it's far more about getting the timings and presentation right for TV.

[gingerjon]

8 hours ago, Dave T said:

It is highly likely that all of the England games in 2021 will be lower than all of the England games in 2013, although 2 of those were double headers so not like-for-like. 

But for a comp that was looking to deliver attendance growth of 75%, that isn't a huge success story. 

Today's crowd was OK. Maybe we have found the level that we will operate at. But this was meant to be a World Cup that delivered huge crowd growth. 

I think today's crowd was decent and a lot higher than the downbeat assessments of France as both opposition and draw would have led you to think. Next week's is going to be awful though - a dead rubber (standard rugby league terminology) against an absolute minnow.

The NZ-Jamaica crowd is poor. I would have thought that would be an easier game to sell and get a crowd for. The Haka versus reggae - all the in the heart of RL-land.

[Tommygilf]

7 hours ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

NZ’s crowds have been particularly disappointing given they’re the best team and have played in two hardcore RL strongholds. I think someone else mentioned that maybe fans in RL heartlands are too savvy and understand the likely one sided nature of the group games.

NZ should be playing their group games outside the M62. Preferably in London. 

If they played their 3 group games at say Brentford, we'd be far closer to 60k, probably more, than to a likely sub 20k total attendance across 3 games. Firstly because there is a dearth of games in the South of England for fans to attend, second, because "NZ Rugby" carries significant caché to the casual sports ticket buyer, and finally, because Ireland, Jamaica and Lebanon have huge expat and heritage communities in London itself too (London Irish of course playing at Brentford).

I'm not an economist, but from this position of ignorance it seems the organisers have both saturated the RL heartlands and increased prices. In other words they have increased supply and increased prices, without necessarily increasing demand (and its all on the BBC this time too). As such, those heartland fans are able to and are proving to be, far more selective with their purchases.

There has been individually poor efforts on specific matches within that too, which hasn't helped.

[Dave T]

8 hours ago, Chris22 said:

In 2013, we got 45,042, 24,375 and 25,114 in the groups. A total of 94,451.

In 2022, 43,119 and 23,648. So we need 27,785 at Sheffield to beat 2013.

I think that's unlikely. But, this time didn't have a big fixture against Australia this time and a double header fixture, which may have drawn some Wales fans.

There's lots of questions about pricing and venues to be asked.

But England matches have shown a similar level of appeal, stadiums look full, atmospheres are good and they look like major events. Against the backdrop of a strain of personal finances not seen in generations, I think that's OK.

I think organisers have done alright with England. The wider tournament, hit and miss is being kind.

Yes. But this was to be a record-breaking world cup that stepped up to the next level. We got 458k last time and we were to get 750k this time. It was to be a record breaking festival of RL that smashed all records and reached new audiences. A 75% (ish) increase in crowds was the aim. 

In that context, I think it is valid to be disappointed. 

I love the RLWC. Its my favourite thing in sport, and id enjoy it if it was played on the local school field with just us lot there, but this tournament hasn't done what it said it would off the field. 

[JM2010]

7 hours ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

NZ’s crowds have been particularly disappointing given they’re the best team and have played in two hardcore RL strongholds. I think someone else mentioned that maybe fans in RL heartlands are too savvy and understand the likely one sided nature of the group games.

I think this sums up why some crowds have been poor. Heartlands RL fans know the games aren't going to be competitive so are deciding to stay home and watch on TV plus there's so many games being played close to each other they can pick and choose.  Any games involving NZ, Australia and England which were potential walkovers could have been played in places like Bristol and London. If they only had one game to go to at these grounds then they would be an easier sell and the locals might not be put off by potential one sided games

[Mr Frisky]

6 hours ago, EggFace said:

Yes and watching some NRL players who were playing in front of 80000 in Sydney plating ib front of under 4000 was embarrassing.

Take it you didn't follow the crowds in the group games in the 2017 WC in Oz - wernt they far worse and as you say far more embarrassing?

Do you know what the NZ Warriors average home gate is in the NRL? - its not quite 80,000 either...

[GeordieSaint]

7 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

I think this sums up why some crowds have been poor. Heartlands RL fans know the games aren't going to be competitive so are deciding to stay home and watch on TV plus there's so many games being played close to each other they can pick and choose.  Any games involving NZ, Australia and England which were potential walkovers could have been played in places like Bristol and London. If they only had one game to go to at these grounds then they would be an easier sell and the locals might not be put off by potential one sided games

I expect saturation is a bigger issue than a perception of walkovers. 3 games at Saints/Doncaster/Newcastle, 4 at Leeds/Warrington, even 2 at Hull are simply too many in areas that even before the cost of living crisis, were not the most affluent of areas (less Leeds). 

Still lots to celebrate as well though; in particular the product on the pitch itself. The only game that’s been poor IMO was at Coventry as Scotland were diabolically bad.

[Archie Gordon]

14 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

...

I'm not an economist, but from this position of ignorance it seems the organisers have both saturated the RL heartlands and increased prices. In other words they have increased supply and increased prices, without necessarily increasing demand (and its all on the BBC this time too). As such, those heartland fans are able to and are proving to be, far more selective with their purchases.

...

You may not be an economist but that is a very good appraisal. 

The thing that the organisers seem to feel that they've done to compensate is to improve the quality of the product - e.g. only putting games on in modern facilities. But that rise in quality is not nearly enough (it may even be a negative). Moreover, in the old 14-team format, you didn't get the third game of the group being a complete mismatch and so another aspect of quality (some uncertainty of outcome) has actually gone down. 

[Dave T]

25 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I think today's crowd was decent and a lot higher than the downbeat assessments of France as both opposition and draw would have led you to think. Next week's is going to be awful though - a dead rubber (standard rugby league terminology) against an absolute minnow.

The NZ-Jamaica crowd is poor. I would have thought that would be an easier game to sell and get a crowd for. The Haka versus reggae - all the in the heart of RL-land.

Decent/ok, are absolutely the words for today's crowd. But within the context of the World Cup, there is some disappointment that we couldn't sell out, when we have been sitting on fewer than 5k tickets for weeks now. 

If we look at the list of England RLWC group games at home since these extended tournaments started in 1995:

2013 v Aus (Cardiff) 45, 052

2021 v Samoa (Newc) 43,119

1995 v Aus (Wembley) 41, 271

2000 v Aus (Twick) 33, 758

1995 v Fiji (Wigan) 26,263

2013 v Fiji (Hull) 25,114

2013 v Ireland (Hudds) 24,375

2021 v France (Bolton) 23, 648

1995 v South Africa (Leeds) 14,041

2000 v Fiji (Leeds) 10,052

2000 v Russia (St Helens) 5,736

 

This isn't the growth we were looking for. 

 

 

 

 

[Just Browny]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

Decent/ok, are absolutely the words for today's crowd. But within the context of the World Cup, there is some disappointment that we couldn't sell out, when we have been sitting on fewer than 5k tickets for weeks now. 

 

 

 

 

 

It was one of the games they threw the kitchen sink at in terms of promotion too, so it seems very disappointing that all that promotion from the point there were 'fewer than 5,000 tickets left' seems to have delivered sales barely out of the hundreds. They haven't got the same run-up at Sheffield or the Quarter Final now.

[Dave T]

2 hours ago, Sitona said:

OK, the NRL grand final was 82k but the season average for the NRL was 15k. The WC final at Old Trafford will be near 75k capacity and average so far is 11k so not much different. 
 

the opening game at this year’s WC had a bigger attendance than the Final in Brisbane in 2017

There are always positives to be found. The fact we can get 43k versus Samoa at Newcastle is a huge positive and was one of the best sporting days of my life. It was excellent. 

But if we are going to cherry pick, we could try and polish the 2000 WC opener in front of 33k as a positive versus some of the crowds in Oz tournaments in particular. Context tells us it was a poor crowd though. 

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Just Browny said:

It was one of the games they threw the kitchen sink at in terms of promotion too, so it seems very disappointing that all that promotion from the point there were 'fewer than 5,000 tickets left' seems to have delivered sales barely out of the hundreds. They haven't got the same run-up at Sheffield or the Quarter Final now.

It's the clearest demonstration that the pricing is wrong. Those expensive tickets that have been remaining for weeks just would not shift. 

[Dave T]

25 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

I think this sums up why some crowds have been poor. Heartlands RL fans know the games aren't going to be competitive so are deciding to stay home and watch on TV plus there's so many games being played close to each other they can pick and choose.  Any games involving NZ, Australia and England which were potential walkovers could have been played in places like Bristol and London. If they only had one game to go to at these grounds then they would be an easier sell and the locals might not be put off by potential one sided games

I'm afraid this does bring us back to one of the key talking points, prices. 

People may enjoy a walkover, but they won't pay £25-70 for them. That just isn't an appropriate price. We have more than enough evidence now. 

Plenty of choice and high prices means games like this are going to suffer. The black and white is that the value of these games is not £25-70.

[Dave T]

45 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

 

I'm not an economist, but from this position of ignorance it seems the organisers have both saturated the RL heartlands and increased prices. In other words they have increased supply and increased prices, without necessarily increasing demand (and its all on the BBC this time too). As such, those heartland fans are able to and are proving to be, far more selective with their purchases.

 

Good post. 

They really have created a perfect storm. The strategy is terrible. 

People tried to find some comfort in Warrington being an outlier. But possibly outside of the opener, there literally hasn't been a crowd that has been impressive, or delivered any kind of growth, or created any kind of buzz.  The odd one, including yesterday's could be described as ok. 

The vast majority of RLWC games have been played in front of 30 to 50% of capacity crowds. That is impossible to spin into a positive. 

Edited October 23, 2022 by Dave T

[Dave T]

25 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

It was one of the games they threw the kitchen sink at in terms of promotion too, so it seems very disappointing that all that promotion from the point there were 'fewer than 5,000 tickets left' seems to have delivered sales barely out of the hundreds. They haven't got the same run-up at Sheffield or the Quarter Final now.

The below is an example of their Facebook ads at the moment. They are still focusing on scarcity and getting your tickets before they sellout for once in a lifetime events. 

Unfortunately, we know they are not selling out, and we know they aren't once in a lifetime. It's not good messaging that compels people to buy tickets. 

I get that it's marketing, so we don't have to worry about being factually accurate (although you legally do to an extent), but you can't base your whole marketing around scarcity and play your games in front of half full grounds. 

Focus on athletes, on the war dances, on the colour, the entertainment factor. 

Edited October 23, 2022 by Dave T

[Tommygilf]

20 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

You may not be an economist but that is a very good appraisal. 

The thing that the organisers seem to feel that they've done to compensate is to improve the quality of the product - e.g. only putting games on in modern facilities. But that rise in quality is not nearly enough (it may even be a negative). Moreover, in the old 14-team format, you didn't get the third game of the group being a complete mismatch and so another aspect of quality (some uncertainty of outcome) has actually gone down. 

Thank you.

I don't think the the choice to move to modern stadia is particularly a bad one, it just seems that the size of venues has been inappropriate for most fixtures; and crucially that there is an oversupply in some areas.

The 3rd group game thing is fine for me. It is what it is and that's how world cups work with the range of aims and aspirations for different teams.

The problem is that they have triple loaded some stadiums, and in the West of the Pennines concentrated that saturation too. 3 games in St Helens or Leigh would probably be fine if you didn't also have 4 games in Warrington, 3 games in Wigan and Bolton and the final in Manchester.

[The Masked Poster]

I'd definitely focus on the entertainment as it's been mostly bloody great. The culture thing too can be used. 

Let's hope sales pick up now too as we head towards the QFs. I haven't been to a game yet as it happens, due to work and other commitments but I'm definitely hoping to. Maybe the Greece one next week if I can change things. 

[The Masked Poster]

I should add, I don't think it's too late to change things round and somehow get better crowds in for the remaining games.

[Tommygilf]

11 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Good post. 

They really have created a perfect storm. The strategy is terrible. 

People tried to find some comfort in Warrington being an outlier. But possibly outside of the opener, there literally hasn't been a crowd that has been impressive, or delivered any kind of growth, or created any kind of buzz. 

The vast majority of RLWC games have been played in front of 30 to 50% of capacity crowds. That is impossible to spin into a positive. 

Thank you.

Yeah it is disappointing. Like you I think, I haven't understood the strategy from day 1. Doubling down on certain areas, yet increasing ticket prices as if they are more exclusive. It just seemed off from the start.

The lack of that buzz is worrying for me. The feelgood is struggling to get through at times. I think a lot of that is down to a fundamental misunderstanding of the RL heartlands too.

I have been wondering what would have happened if they just did 2013 but with 2021* prices and a few less venues tbh. Not saying that it would work but it had crossed my mind.

[Just Browny]

6 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Thank you.

I don't think the the choice to move to modern stadia is particularly a bad one, it just seems that the size of venues has been inappropriate for most fixtures; and crucially that there is an oversupply in some areas.

The 3rd group game thing is fine for me. It is what it is and that's how world cups work with the range of aims and aspirations for different teams.

The problem is that they have triple loaded some stadiums, and in the West of the Pennines concentrated that saturation too. 3 games in St Helens or Leigh would probably be fine if you didn't also have 4 games in Warrington, 3 games in Wigan and Bolton and the final in Manchester.

The good news is that we have a slightly better spread once we are into the knockout stages, with the vast area of RL heartland east of Wigan and and west of Leeds finally getting a call-up at Huddersfield and a hopefully attractive QF at Hull.

[Jim from Oz]

13 hours ago, Leonard said:

Great crowd and looked good on TV

But makes little sense compared to what they were saying in the press - 3k seats left and restricted seats open?

28,723 is the capacity - unless some seats were taken up for screens etc.

So either a lot of seats were blocked off for some reason or comments in the press were loose with the truth.

OR it could be that the ticket site is busted and giving the organisers the wrong info?

ie, the ticket site computer may be telling the RLWC organisers there are "less than 3000 seats" when in fact that is not the case

Just a thought … cos otherwise these press releases are pretty outrageous …

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

Thank you.

Yeah it is disappointing. Like you I think, I haven't understood the strategy from day 1. Doubling down on certain areas, yet increasing ticket prices as if they are more exclusive. It just seemed off from the start.

The lack of that buzz is worrying for me. The feelgood is struggling to get through at times. I think a lot of that is down to a fundamental misunderstanding of the RL heartlands too.

I have been wondering what would have happened if they just did 2013 but with 2021* prices and a few less venues tbh. Not saying that it would work but it had crossed my mind.

I think I made a similar point the other day, 2013, with tweaks,  higher prices and a booster of Women's, Wheelchair, PDRL etc. 

It feels like we have ignored the things that worked well in that for fans. 

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Jim from Oz said:

OR it could be that the ticket site is busted and giving the organisers the wrong info?

ie, the ticket site computer may be telling the RLWC organisers there are "less than 3000 seats" when in fact that is not the case

Just a thought … cos otherwise these press releases are pretty outrageous …

It's clear they haven't been dealing in facts for a long time. The website tells us there is low availibility for games. The marketing tells us buy tickets quick because games are selling out. The CEO has been telling us for months that England games are heading for sellouts. 

It's a culture, a conscious decision has been made to talk about ticket sales and provide updates like this.