Rework of IRL/RLWC

[RP London]

2 hours ago, Pulga said:

That's not true. The All Blacks scored 16 tries against Japan (!!!) In 1995. Scotland conceded 15 against The Kangaroos.

Surely we can't be that short-sighted. Japan has the worst loss ever at a RUWC and then had 20m viewers watch them beat South Africa a few short decades later. 

Tonga has had worse defeats at RLWCs than Greece has. Would you go back in time and kill off Tonga?

Good grief. What is wrong with some fans?

more pertinently.. in 2011 Japan got beaten by New Zealand 83-7... yet in 2015 beat South Africa.. 4 years.. 

and before anyone says anything, the match day squad in 2011 had 17 Japanese born players (+ a Kiwi who moved there in his teens) and the 2015 had 15 Japanese born players, 1 south african born to a Japanese mother who moved to Japan at 6 and the Kiwi who moved there in his teens... so they werent all of a sudden jammed full of heritage players etc.. Which often gets thrown at Japan even though its not true.

[RP London]

4 minutes ago, SydneyRoosters said:

Yeah really excited for that game, PNG should rest a lot of players so going to be a tight one.

That group is interesting and the attitudes of the coaches will be interesting too.. 

Tonga shouldnt lose really but they wont want go too weak as if they do it throws things very open they're only 22 points in points difference ahead of PNG who could take top spot with a good win over Wales.. if PNG go too weak they could lose to Wales which then will throw the 2nd place a little up in the air with Wales needing a 21 point turn around to take them above PNG etc.. Its not a done and dusted group just yet!

[Archie Gordon]

54 minutes ago, RP London said:

PNG v Wales could be a cracker too

Been the best group, I think. Ended up midweek and BBC 3, which means fewer eyes on it, which is a shame. 

[Harry Stottle]

On 26/10/2022 at 00:15, UTK said:

https://www.intrl.sport/news/road-to-france-rlwc2025-qualifying-process-announced/

I must admit I'm not entirely across the qualification structure but I don't think Africa  are all that likely to get another spot for 2025, as I see it they're guaranteed one spot (now Lebanon) with the next highest finisher of the MEA Cup in 2023 now heading into repechage for the final spot in the tournament.

As for Europe, they have a guarantee of 6 places with their highest possible number being 8. England and France are now the only auto-qualifiers with the rest to be made up from either the Euro Championships or repechage over the next two years as required. Comparing the 2021 Euro qualifiers process we have some differences, the top two teams in Euro A in 2018 qualified for 2021 with the rest heading into the 2019 qualifiers. The difference here with our 8 team Euro A in 2023 is the likely two highest finishers (England and France) are already auto-qualified, so perhaps the next 2 highest place will receive qualification from the 2023 Euro A with the remaining teams heading to a qualification tournament with the winner of Euro B. If this is the structure the qualification from Euro A could very well be dependent on pool draws but the safe bet would be Wales and Ireland to qualify here and take us to 4 Euro nations.

A 2024 tournament then would likely give us Italy, Scotland, Serbia, Spain + a winner or winners from Euro B (Germany, Greece, Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Ukraine). This really does put some pressure on the IRL to enforce those minimum standards as we're presented with a showdown between the likes of Scotland/Italy and those really making domestic strides in Europe. Whoever doesn't make this 6 will likely head into some form of repechage with the Cook Islands and the highest placed outside Lebanon in MEA Cup, I don't really like the odds of anyone other than the Cook Islands in repechage again so these Euro Championship decisions are really integral for the likes of Greece.

 

But isn't this organisational stuff all dependent on the timing of these games to find the '25 finalists because of what the Aussie Leagues not just the NRL but second tiers in the amount of players the clubs will realease to play in the qualifiers, Greece, Italy even Lebanon would be totally understrength without their 'heritage' player's.

[Harry Stottle]

30 minutes ago, RP London said:

That group is interesting and the attitudes of the coaches will be interesting too.. 

Tonga shouldnt lose really but they wont want go too weak as if they do it throws things very open they're only 22 points in points difference ahead of PNG who could take top spot with a good win over Wales.. if PNG go too weak they could lose to Wales which then will throw the 2nd place a little up in the air with Wales needing a 21 point turn around to take them above PNG etc.. Its not a done and dusted group just yet!

It is if the Tongan and PNG coaches want to keep momentum going and play strong teams.

[hw88]

11 hours ago, N2022 said:

I see your point about preference for 12 over 16 - fair opinion. Growth of the game worldwide may be served better by some involvement (plate competition or similar) for teams 13-16 although I agree 80-point thrashings aren't the best way to develop these nations, so impact of full incorporation of them in main draw is perhaps mixed.

Interesting that you identify finding the champion as aim number 1. Given how rarely (and long ago if I understand correctly) it's been anyone but Australia, there's virtually no case on those grounds for more than 6 sides being there, and 4 would probably comfortably cover that aspect of it.

And that's the problem - the difference in ability levels is striking and there's more chance of a genuine shock result in football or cricket than in RL and you are left with a handful of teams with any real chance of winning the comp playing teams of a vastly inferior standard - hence unappealing mismatches.

To be honest, top 4 or 6 could have some kind of seeding comp to qualify for SF / QF while the others play something closer matched to see who joins them in those rounds.

Yes I suppose the ultimate point of any competition is to find the champion whether that be in rugby, football or Bake-Off!!

NZ were champions 3 tournaments ago and England pushed Australia very close last time but I take your point about their dominance. As you say it could be a competition between just 4 or 5 teams - of the last 5 tournaments (since 1995 when it was opened up) Australia and England have been in every semi-final and NZ in 4 of them. However last time we had Fiji and Tonga making the semi-finals, so perhaps (with the use of 'heritage' players) things are changing.

You are quite correct about rugby producing very few shocks. The hard, physical nature of the game means that the best team usually wins. This leads to another problem that will be very difficult to solve. England, France and Australia are huge in population terms compared to the other nations. Even allowing for the fact that it is not the dominant code of football in England and France (and arguably Australia as well) they have a huge pool of talent to choose from. On top of that some of our other 'major' nations have other problems peculiar to them, NZ - the All Blacks juggernaut, PNG - widely spread out towns with few good roads, Pacific Islands - tiny populations spread over many remote island groups.

All the above is why I think 12 teams is the right number, 16 - too many, 14 - too awkward, 10 and below to few to encourage the spread of the game. Of course as the weaker teams improve then the competion can be expanded accordingly.

[redjonn]

1 hour ago, RP London said:

more pertinently.. in 2011 Japan got beaten by New Zealand 83-7... yet in 2015 beat South Africa.. 4 years.. 

and before anyone says anything, the match day squad in 2011 had 17 Japanese born players (+ a Kiwi who moved there in his teens) and the 2015 had 15 Japanese born players, 1 south african born to a Japanese mother who moved to Japan at 6 and the Kiwi who moved there in his teens... so they werent all of a sudden jammed full of heritage players etc.. Which often gets thrown at Japan even though its not true.

Do they have a strong domestic league. I would assume this is a key difference.

[RP London]

24 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

It is if the Tongan and PNG coaches want to keep momentum going and play strong teams.

which to be fair is why i said at the start 

 

1 hour ago, RP London said:

That group is interesting and the attitudes of the coaches will be interesting too.. 

coaches would probably like to rotate players, Tonga will want to try some combinations I would guess as some players are coming back from injuries... but if they get it wrong they could be in trouble as I wouldnt say Tonga have looked 100% convincing so far.. Even at full strength they could be interesting matches too.

[RP London]

2 minutes ago, redjonn said:

Do they have a strong domestic league. I would assume this is a key difference.

Its been getting better with more money being put into it yes. Interest in the game has been building there for a while and they are doing good things, hosting the world cup also was showing ambition. 

 

[redjonn]

4 minutes ago, RP London said:

Its been getting better with more money being put into it yes. Interest in the game has been building there for a while and they are doing good things, hosting the world cup also was showing ambition. 

 

I noticed when the Aussie player Campese (sorry about spelling)... That suggested things were growing.

It is a key difference to league structures in our RL nations.

[RP London]

3 minutes ago, redjonn said:

I noticed when the Aussie player Campese (sorry about spelling)... That suggested things were growing.

It is a key difference to league structures in our RL nations.

yes early doors of Professionalism they did what the MLS, new Chinese football league and middle eastern countries do/did and try and bring in players that may bring in supporters. 

They are spending a fair bit still domestically hence some England internationals (and others that i just dont know) have gone over towards the end of their career. I am sure this then helps their domestic players as they are training with ex internationals but also general professionalism of the players and therefore fitness and strength has also improved. 

[Pulga]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

But isn't this organisational stuff all dependent on the timing of these games to find the '25 finalists because of what the Aussie Leagues not just the NRL but second tiers in the amount of players the clubs will realease to play in the qualifiers, Greece, Italy even Lebanon would be totally understrength without their 'heritage' player's.

Qualifiers generally have much more strict rules on heritage quotas.

[langpark]

6 hours ago, Pulga said:

Qualifiers generally have much more strict rules on heritage quotas.

Only in Europe. Southern Hemisphere is open slather.