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World Cup Draw - very strange


tim2

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3 hours ago, Dave T said:

Yes, we did that this time too. 

I do understand some of the criticisms and I think it should be changed next time, but tbh, a traditional draw could have seen the Aussies meet the Kiwis and England meet the other team. 

I think there would have been fair anger had England finished 2nd in the group and then got Samoa in the semi final instead of the Aussies or Kiwis who have 100% records. 

However, again, I do think people are being disrespectful to the likes of Tonga, Samo and Fiji and demonstrating that they think they are 2nd rate teams playing in an extended trinations. 

There is no disrespect at all in acknowledging that Australia and NZ are and have always been our most dangerous opponents regardless of any temporary form blips.

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3 hours ago, Spidey said:

Rank 1 v 4 in one semi, should have been rank 2v3 in the other (If Tonga had won) That looks like any seeded comp

Again, Spidey, you're missing the point. 

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"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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I think it's perfectly reasonable for Rugvy League fans to complain about the structure of a comp because every tiny detail doesn't suit our own specific needs, and want it changing. 

It's what comes natural isn't it? 😉

Edited by Dave T
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1 hour ago, Dave T said:

I think it's perfectly reasonable for Rugvy League fans to complain about the structure of a comp because every tiny detail doesn't suit our own specific needs, and want it changing. 

It's what comes natural isn't it? 😉

It's also entirely a perfectly natural reaction for some to pretend like everything is perfect.

If we lose today (a real possibility) will no part of you fell aggrieved that we've had a decent tournament but only had two on-paper competitive games against the same team?

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Just now, Maximus Decimus said:

It's also entirely a perfectly natural reaction for some to pretend like everything is perfect.

If we lose today (a real possibility) will no part of you fell aggrieved that we've had a decent tournament but only had two on-paper competitive games against the same team?

I'll feel aggrieved because we've lost to Samoa in the World Cup Semi Final. 

I agree with your view on how we should do a draw, but I think you are completely over thinking and overstating it. 

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If we take the argument that the group order was based on rankings (which I don't think has been proven btw) then the idea is that, barring upsets, we were to be set up for a hypothetical semi-final with Tonga.

If this was to be achieved through the normal system, the quarter finals would've had to have been organised completely differently, and had we lost to Samoa in the opening game would've faced a quarter-final against either NZ or Australia.

I think it's reasonable to suspect that this was a factor in their decision to do the groups as they did, especially with the Emirates booked for the semi-final.

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7 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'll feel aggrieved because we've lost to Samoa in the World Cup Semi Final. 

I agree with your view on how we should do a draw, but I think you are completely over thinking and overstating it. 

The funny thing is if we really wanted to we could have still fixed it to avoid Australia with the kind of draw Maximus wants.

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Just now, Damien said:

The funny thing is if we really wanted to we could have still fixed it to avoid Australia with the kind of draw Maximus wants.

Aye, that's what I highlighted a few posts back, it could easily have been set up to have us facing Tonga or their victors. 

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8 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'll feel aggrieved because we've lost to Samoa in the World Cup Semi Final. 

I agree with your view on how we should do a draw, but I think you are completely over thinking and overstating it. 

It's a discussion forum, and I tend to talk about things that interest me.

I'm not actually that bothered at all, although it will add extra annoyance if we lose today.

What actually interests me and keeps me talking about it, is that people cannot see that this is unusual and almost certainly a fudge. 

This in itself isn't me saying they are bad or wrong for doing so, after all I've argued that it needs to fudged more and differently, but I'm not going to back down when people try to make out like it is totally normal and logical system.

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Just now, Maximus Decimus said:

It's a discussion forum, and I tend to talk about things that interest me.

I'm not actually that bothered at all, although it will add extra annoyance if we lose today.

What actually interests me and keeps me talking about it, is that people cannot see that this is unusual and almost certainly a fudge. 

This in itself isn't me saying they are bad or wrong for doing so, after all I've argued that it needs to fudged more and differently, but I'm not going to back down when people try to make out like it is totally normal and logical system.

Tbh you ignore what people say. 

Plenty of people have acknowledged that it is a fudged system, but then highlighted that so has literally every RLWC since at least 1995 and that it doesn't bother them. 

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6 minutes ago, Damien said:

The funny thing is if we really wanted to we could have still fixed it to avoid Australia with the kind of draw Maximus wants.

We couldn't. 

In the football WC, there is not a single team England can only play in the final. This is very much the normal, default system.

You can make it pretty unlikely, but Samoa being in our group made that especially difficult.

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1 minute ago, Dave T said:

Tbh you ignore what people say. 

Plenty of people have acknowledged that it is a fudged system, but then highlighted that so has literally every RLWC since at least 1995 and that it doesn't bother them. 

I generally don't respond to those that acknowledge it is a fudge because that is essentially my argument and i have no reason to.

There are plenty of others arguing that this system is not a fudge at all and simply a result of ranking, and others saying it's a non-issue which I don't agree with either.

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4 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

We couldn't. 

In the football WC, there is not a single team England can only play in the final. This is very much the normal, default system.

You can make it pretty unlikely, but Samoa being in our group made that especially difficult.

Yes we could. It's a certainty Australia will finish top of their group and easy to fix a draw around that.

Edited by Damien
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Just now, Maximus Decimus said:

I generally don't respond to those that acknowledge it is a fudge because that is essentially my argument and i have no reason to.

There are plenty of others arguing that this system is not a fudge at all and simply a result of ranking, and others saying it's a non-issue which I don't agree with either.

Are there plenty arguing that? I see Spidey holding firm on the ranking argument. 

On your last point, we are just debating opinion. Add that's fine, but that brings us back to an opinion debate, where I think you are over thinking it. 

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5 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

We couldn't. 

In the football WC, there is not a single team England can only play in the final. This is very much the normal, default system.

You can make it pretty unlikely, but Samoa being in our group made that especially difficult.

It would be fixed in the same way that the Brazil and France example was. 

As long as the top seeds top their group you can handpick who plays who. And they did. 

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4 minutes ago, Damien said:

Yes we could. It's a certainty Australia will finish top of their group and easy to fix a draw around that.

But it isn't that England will, unless you also fix the opponents for England's group.

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2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

It would be fixed in the same way that the Brazil and France example was. 

As long as the top seeds top their group you can handpick who plays who. And they did. 

They decided to handpick it regardless of who topped their group.

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2 minutes ago, Damien said:

They did this year. I would be very confident with 4 top seeds that England would top their group.

England were underdogs against Samoa!

In hindsight, we clearly shouldn't have been, but we were.

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1 hour ago, Maximus Decimus said:

We couldn't. 

In the football WC, there is not a single team England can only play in the final. This is very much the normal, default system.

You can make it pretty unlikely, but Samoa being in our group made that especially difficult.

How many can they play twice before the final?

How many possible opponents are there on the post-group, pre-final games?

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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3 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Semi final is the only opportunity for a rematch. 

Under the current WC format then not until the final.

Euros is different because of 3rd placed teams going through so you can potentially play a team from your 1st round group in the semi final.

Last new RL ground (96): Queensway Stadium - North Wales v South Wales 25/6/17

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