Sat 12th Nov: RLWC SF: England v Samoa KO 14:30

[MatthewWoody]

What hurts more is that the Aussies pundit who kept snubbing our game... have been somehow right. 

[Dave T]

Whilst it is really important that we have a post-mortem and make some changes, I'd just like to remind people of a couple of things. 

In 2017, New Zealand were knocked out of the Cup at QF stage at home by Fiji. 

The last time Australia played Tonga, they lost. 

We played poorly and lost an epic game of Rugby. 

[Archie Gordon]

I still haven't re-watched the game on TV but for the Ligi Sao try, did our markers really not split or was I deceived?

[The Future is League]

2 hours ago, MatthewWoody said:

Still devastated. 

Home World Cup...

Am I the only one with the impression that England should have kept it simple, instead of always looking for the extra pass, the moneyball etc? 

By the way, the way we "played" extratime was embarrassing. The forward pass itself...why? There, you just have to advance tackle by tackle, then kick and have Samoa start from deep. Instead, after getting out of prison free the first time (thanks to Whitehead's miracle), you just gifted them another chance. 

Kicking game and game management was unacceptable at test level. The lads were just unable to play under pressure. And I won't start talking about defence...

Who's responsible for all this? Can it mean (some of the) players aren't good enough? Is the "being used to the intensity of the NRL" really a myth (as most of us forumers think)? Cause yesterday it was clear out players had something less. 

Whenever Samoa attacked, I had a feeling we were vulnerable. Whenever they "opened" their game and were quick and expansive. 

Why do I have a feel we've been backwards? 

Australia would have beaten us by 40 points and I won't be surprised if they keep snubbing us.

 

1 hour ago, StandOffHalf said:

Good point. Wane and England didn't do well when the blow-torch came on.

That inferiority complex came out under pressure.

 

36 minutes ago, ELBOWSEYE said:

I thought he had a poor game but your rants are way over the top, he is going to be a top talent and the way to the top is not a simple straight line. Some experienced players had their worst game of the tournament so hanging the youngest is poor form. 

 

31 minutes ago, JohnM said:

Oi you! You can't come on here spouting stuff like that! I mean to say, it's far too close to the truth, far too reasonable and accurate.  You've omitted to call for Wanes head, too and not moaned about the alleged crowd numbers, either. You've not had a go at the way the fixtures were configured either 

Yellow cad for you, I'm afraid.

 

15 minutes ago, moorside roughyed said:

But would it? I think we'd have been leathered by the Aussies judging by what was on display yesterday. The other semi final was 100% better than yesterdays. It was sublime.Good luck to Samoa but they'll have to bring their best "A" game too. 

 

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Whilst it is really important that we have a post-mortem and make some changes, I'd just like to remind people of a couple of things. 

In 2017, New Zealand were knocked out of the Cup at QF stage at home by Fiji. 

The last time Australia played Tonga, they lost. 

We played poorly and lost an epic game of Rugby. 

Our exit from the world cup lays firmly at the door of those clubs who don't produce juniors and are quite happy to sign has beens and never was player from the NR. The future for the game is here junior development, NOT has beens and never was players from the NRL

 

[St Reatham]

England played, especially in the first half, like they could score on every set, like previous games. There didn’t seem to be a plan B.

[Fevrover]

16 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

 

 

 

 

 

Our exit from the world cup lays firmly at the door of those clubs who don't produce juniors and are quite happy to sign has beens and never was player from the NR. The future for the game is here junior development, NOT has beens and never was players from the NRL

 

Good luck with that!

[Dunbar]

41 minutes ago, St Reatham said:

England played, especially in the first half, like they could score on every set, like previous games. There didn’t seem to be a plan B.

They did. And could have scored from either of two early short kicks which may have changed the game.  We will never know.

I don't think England played at all well in probably the first 65 minutes or golden point extra time.

Although I think is is worth pointing out that many people on here believe that we should play the 'British' way by throwing the ball around and taking chances and can't just replicate the Australian grind (I don't particularly subscribe to that myself) but then quickly default to 'we should have completed our sets and been patient' when it didn't work.

Edited November 13, 2022 by Dunbar

[Dave T]

5 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

They did. And could have scored from either of two early short kicks which may have changed the game.  We will never know.

I don't think England played at all well in probably the first 65 minutes or golden point extra time.

Although I think is is worth pointing out that many people on here believe that we should play the 'British' way by throwing the ball around and taking chances and cant just replicated the Australian grind (I don't particularly subscribe to that myself) but then quickly default to 'we should have completed our sets and been patient' when it didn't work.

I think there is a middle ground. We clearly tried to go round Samoa, but when the forwards did get their chance they trundled the ball up field nicely. 

I think we took the ball playing to the extreme, particularly in key parts of the game where we lost our heads. We had Williams, Tomkins, Welsby and Radley all in effect playing as half backs, with three of them making crucial errors that cost us the game by pushing things too much. 

We got obsessed with the little kick through for a spell too, and I think this was because we had too many Cooks and an inexperienced Welsby losing his head. 

But, it was a game of missed opportunities. Dropping the ball over the line, and throwing an intercept is a 12 point turnaround, and despite playing badly it shows how the game could have gone. 

Edited November 13, 2022 by Dave T

[The Future is League]

10 minutes ago, Fevrover said:

Good luck with that!

I'm not wrong though am i.

[Fevrover]

Just now, The Future is League said:

I'm not wrong though am i.

No definitely not that's why i put what i  did.

[UTK]

27 minutes ago, St Reatham said:

England played, especially in the first half, like they could score on every set, like previous games. There didn’t seem to be a plan B.

Roles very much reversed from the last game - Samoa turned up with an air of arrogance, little emphasis on preparation assuming they would walk it, England obliterated them for it and they simply had no answers. 

England rock up assuming the game is theirs, nowhere near the linespeed and aggression to start, simple errors and lacking efforts. Samoa knew they only had to survive the opening middles stint after the PNG game and they did that and proceeded to stick in the grind for the rest of the game. England seemed to always think it was just going to break open for them at some point but Samoa always kept them close.

Edited November 13, 2022 by UTK

[ATLANTISMAN]

9 hours ago, Alan Robertson said:

I haven't yet become desensitised to these losses. I don't think I ever will.

Both of Farnworth's tries were superb and he was one of the few England players who didn't deserve that result. Whitehead is another strong example of that. 

Welsby was unbelievably poor. He's a 'flat track bully' at this stage.

England's 'game management', in extra time, was as bad as it gets.

I can't stop thinking about 'what might have been' .

Welsby was not just unbelievably poor he was totally appalling.

 

P

[ukrlfan]

For anyone that can't see how good Welsby is.. you are either clueless or blinded by bias for another club.

That was his worst game. He had a shocker. But so did a couple of others.. he was probably the worst. How someone can totally switch off in the semi of world cup when he is a player that usually competed harder and longer than anyone 

English players play too many games and are then expected to compete with the best in the world that play less games.

England looked great at times and saved the worst game for the semi. I'm still gutted. It was horrible to watch.

There are some good signs but hooker for England moving forward is a big worry. Even at their best micky mac was still awful.

Can't say im overly exited about the future of our props but I'm sure guys will step up in the future. Oledzki was injured at the end of the season. Lees will surely become a starting prop. Walmsley was a miss but Burgess definitely stepped up.. hopefully he has another big England tournament left in him

Centres.. we just don't produce world class centres.. or they are never available. Farnworth is promising but wants to be a fullback.

I don't understand what went wrong with the mentality of the players. 

Whitehead was brilliant. I was so gutted for him. Makinson is always class too and can't really fault his effort.

[ukrlfan]

Williams looked so dangerous at times. I was impressed with him. His running game is brilliant

Hill rolled back the years and with Burgess kept the others out of a starting spot. Luke Thompson did not look like the guy that left for the NRL. 

Knowles and Radley compliment eachother nicely 

[bratman]

57 minutes ago, Dave T said:

In 2017, New Zealand were knocked out of the Cup at QF stage at home by Fiji. 

The last time Australia played Tonga, they lost. 

We played poorly and lost an epic game of Rugby. 

Tonga, Samoa, Fiji have provided quite a few shocks to the "big 3" in the last decade. Yes I'm gutted, and England were poor, but it's good to have more competitive teams.

[Dave T]

I've just watched the last 10 minutes again. 

Sunday ruined. 

But, what a sport. 

[Dave T]

Just now, bratman said:

Tonga, Samoa, Fiji have provided quite a few shocks to the "big 3" in the last decade. Yes I'm gutted, and England were poor, but it's good to have more competitive teams.

As I say, let's review errors and look for improvements, but let's look at our strengths, we stuck 60 on this team a few weeks back, we beat the Kiwis regularly. We aren't mugs. 

It's sport. Well done Samoa. 

[Wellsy4HullFC]

The only take I get from this is that we need more high level international rugby league. It was compelling from start to finish.

We just didn't click yesterday. I think it was just one of those days. It's sport. There are no guarantees.

I liked this squad, I think there's certainly areas for improvement though. I don't think the coach was to blame. 

As for next year... Get the Samoans back over!

[overtheborder]

For me the game yesterday just tells me England need more big-match practice. That was the first time as I recall they've had a pressure game since Wane has been in, so to me we can't be that surprised they were caught cold against a team that had to scrap for a win the week before.

For me we need more games, more time to really nail down processes and structures so that the basics don't go out of the window during big games and hopefully there'll be some improvement.

It was a disappointing result for England of course, but I'm not panicking.

[David Dockhouse Host]

1 hour ago, JohnM said:

1. How do you know Samoa complained about anything at half time?

2. Does anyone or any team complaining about anything actually constitute an incontrovertible truth? 

 

It was mentioned on TV

[bratman]

5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I've just watched the last 10 minutes again. 

Sunday ruined. 

But, what a sport. 

I'll watch it at some point, not sure I'm ready yet but wanted to hear the atmosphere on TV, was great in the ground.

Watching it live I thought Luai in pulled us apart, and Paulo was immense. We just never got going until the end, trying to play expansive rugby before winning the arm wrestle.

[Tippytoe]

6 hours ago, rlno1 said:

Why can't England match intensity most of them play or have played in the NRL.

I'm as disappointed as anyone with result but the reality is we're not at the level of Samoa Nz or Aus the proof is plain to see.

[ELBOWSEYE]

Looking at some of the comments on here its ridiculous bordering on pathetic the way posters are pullung apart Welsby. I am not a saints fan but people calling him a flat track bully, hes a young talented player who has influenced grand finals but is young and not the finished article. Give him a break he is going to be a top player. 

[Alan Robertson]

5 minutes ago, ELBOWSEYE said:

Looking at some of the comments on here its ridiculous bordering on pathetic the way posters are pullung apart Welsby. I am not a saints fan but people calling him a flat track bully, hes a young talented player who has influenced grand finals but is young and not the finished article. Give him a break he is going to be a top player. 

He is a flat track bully. Over the last few of decades, how many of our halves have played well against top-class international opposition?

[Damien]

11 minutes ago, Tippytoe said:

I'm as disappointed as anyone with result but the reality is we're not at the level of Samoa Nz or Aus the proof is plain to see.

Australia maybe but the rest no way. Playing terribly and still drawing after 80 mins against Samoa does not mean we are not at their level.