FIFA WORLD CUP 2022

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

In the NFL there is a highly prized Walter Payton award given to the NFL player with the most outstanding contribution to their community that season (which isn’t always measured in money but also time spent actually making a difference).

I would like to see the Premier League perhaps do something similar along the lines of a Marcus Rashford trophy.

The American media do a good job of highlighting the philanthropic activities of the NFL players and whatever people might think it has a powerful effect and sustains the ethos amongst many with the sport there.

In fairness I think they do that because there are so many negative stories emanating from US sports; basketball realy seems to suffer in this regard. It doesn't surprise me that the NFL have such an award and draw attention to it.

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, Niels said:

I understand but there is a difference between raising the money and giving away your own.

 

Yes, but surely the results are the main thing.

[Damien]

5 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Good for him, Marcus Rashford raised funding and awareness for literally millions of kids getting school dinners in the UK (which in total amounted to far more than £185k). And every England player gives away their match fee which is at least £2,000 - which over the course of a standard year, take 2021 as an example, amounts to 19 x £2000 per player on just those match fees alone, and that is if they haven't increased since last I checked.

I don't see it as a willy measuring competition, but if people want it to be, there is no competition. 

There's loads of examples if we are going beyond the initial point of players not taking money playing for their country. Wilfred Zaha gives 10% of his salary to charity which is 13k a week. Raheem Sterling made a substantial donation to the Grenfell survivors. Mason Mount had done a fair bit of charitable work. Countless others do as well and I'm sure many do so anonymously.

[Gerrumonside ref]

1 minute ago, Sidi Fidi Gold said:

Wasn't the 1972 and 76 Euro's only a 4 team tournament?

As for the 1980 Euro's , from memory, we drew with Belgium and had a controversial goal disallowed, lost to hosts Italy and beat Spain , the top team, which was Belgium went to the final, hardly a disaster.

1984 Euro's, wasn't Bobby Robson the manager? enough said.

And as for Shilton, he cost us in 1974, 1986 and 1990.

We beat Spain in 1980 after we were already out the competition!

I would say not qualifying for consecutive major tournaments on a regular basis in the mid 70s to mid 80s and failing even when we did (1980) is not success or indicative of a strong team.

As for Shilton, I think he had a peak period between 1977 and 1984 where he was very solid and let’s face it he did win a lot of caps for England (perhaps maybe a record number at one point).

 

[The Masked Poster]

1 hour ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

They won the UEFA cup in that period which was arguably as hard to win as the European Cup at that time.

I'm sorry but while the EUFA Cup was a notable trophy and an achievement to win it, it really wasn't comparable with the European Cup. (I still call the Champions League that) 

[Niels]

14 minutes ago, Damien said:

There's loads of examples if we are going beyond the initial point of players not taking money playing for their country. Wilfred Zaha gives 10% of his salary to charity which is 13k a week. Raheem Sterling made a substantial donation to the Grenfell survivors. Mason Mount had done a fair bit of charitable work. Countless others do as well and I'm sure many do so anonymously.

I don't think it's the same though as the Moroccan example is cultural.

The player has given his national team money to the team staff and to actual poorer families in his home country for 7 years.

I agree Zaha is a good example, as he gives to the poor here and in Ivory Coast, but he isn't English either. 

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Niels

[Gerrumonside ref]

Just now, The Masked Poster said:

I'm sorry but while the EUFA Cup was a notable trophy and an achievement to win it, it really wasn't comparable with the European Cup. (I still call the Champions League that) 

I think in terms of strength of opponent the UEFA Cup was arguably harder to win as you faced multiple teams from England, Spain, Italy, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium etc.

Some of these were often teams that were on the up and maybe even on a par with the champion clubs in their country at that time.

The European Cup on the other hand carried more prestige because of the clubs that had won it but in terms of strength in depth it was usually only a handful of very elite teams.

[Damien]

6 minutes ago, Niels said:

I don't think it's the same though as the Moroccan example is cultural.

The player has given his national team money to the team staff and to actual poorer families in his home country for 7 years.

I agree Zaha is a good example, as he gives to the poor here and in Ivory Coast, but he isn't English either. 

I don't see what is cultural about a single player from Morocco giving money compared to an entire squad of players having done so for years over different generations.

[Niels]

4 minutes ago, Damien said:

I don't see what is cultural about a single player from Morocco giving money compared to an entire squad of players having done so for years over different generations.

It's part of Islamic culture for those who are rich to regularly help the poor directly. I am sure many other players will donate also.

The England players are giving what they admit in the article I posted is "nothing major". They also admit they keep far more from sponsorship.

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Niels

[moorside roughyed]

10 hours ago, Old Frightful said:

Fantastic 

[moorside roughyed]

Soccer - Namby Pambys. 

[Sidi Fidi Gold]

33 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

We beat Spain in 1980 after we were already out the competition!

I would say not qualifying for consecutive major tournaments on a regular basis in the mid 70s to mid 80s and failing even when we did (1980) is not success or indicative of a strong team.

As for Shilton, I think he had a peak period between 1977 and 1984 where he was very solid and let’s face it he did win a lot of caps for England (perhaps maybe a record number at one point).

 

I can't even remember were this disagreement started, were we discussing the 1912 home Internationals ? anyway, you win, I'm going to bed now.

[Damien]

1 minute ago, Niels said:

It's part of Islamic culture for those who are rich to regularly help the poor directly. I am sure many other players will donate also.

The England players are giving what they admit in the article I posted is "nothing major". They also admit they keep far more from sponsorship.

There is zero proof that any of the other Moroccan players do though. You are citing a single player and jumping to a bunch of conclusions and making out it is totally different than what English players do, after it was pointed out that England players actually do what you wanted them to do anyway.

As Tommy said I don't see why this has to be a willy measuring competition. I think many footballers get tarred unfairly and I have no doubt that jealousy is part of that. I mean this generally and necessarily on your part. There is certainly downright hostility from some sections of the media who seem to loathe seeing working class lads earning big money. I'm happy to leave it there and agree to disagree.

[Gerrumonside ref]

5 minutes ago, Sidi Fidi Gold said:

I can't even remember were this disagreement started, were we discussing the 1912 home Internationals ? anyway, you win, I'm going to bed now.

We’ll call it an honourable draw! Haha

[Niels]

2 hours ago, Damien said:

There is zero proof that any of the other Moroccan players do though. You are citing a single player and jumping to a bunch of conclusions and making out it is totally different than what English players do, after it was pointed out that England players actually do what you wanted them to do anyway.

As Tommy said I don't see why this has to be a willy measuring competition. I think many footballers get tarred unfairly and I have no doubt that jealousy is part of that. I mean this generally and necessarily on your part. There is certainly downright hostility from some sections of the media who seem to loathe seeing working class lads earning big money. I'm happy to leave it there and agree to disagree.

I think either I haven't explained properly or you have misunderstood. 

In this culture, Religious players, and a lot of the team are, are obliged to help those poorer. I would be surprised if they don't help. 

Tommy and yourself have pointed out what the England players do but Importantly, my point is  that this is negligible and they should do more.

For me, giving what they consider is "nothing major" is not sufficient for me. These are top earners and the fee is less than 1% of their monthly wage! As I said before it goes to grass roots, not cancer patients or poorly children.

I would like players of all nations to give their national team fees and extras to the poor and team staff directly as the Moroccan player does and follow his example. 

I wouldn't use the argument that it's jealousy. This is a trope used by those on the far right who criticise people on benefits for having this opinion about higher taxes etc. I think sometimes the top soccer players need a little reminder from the press how privileged they are.

I agree it isn't a competition, but then it wasn't me who mentioned Raheem Sterling and Mason Mount

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Niels

[moorside roughyed]

10 hours ago, Old Frightful said:

Just sent this to my soccer loving brother in law. It gave him a right good old chuckle. 

[The Masked Poster]

2 hours ago, Niels said:

I think either I haven't explained properly or you have misunderstood. 

In this culture, Religious players, and a lot of the team are, are obliged to help those poorer. I would be surprised if they don't help. 

Tommy and yourself have pointed out what the England players do but Importantly, my point is  that this is negligible and they should do more.

For me, giving what they consider is "nothing major" is not sufficient for me. These are top earners and the fee is less than 1% of their monthly wage! As I said before it goes to grass roots, not cancer patients or poorly children.

I would like players of all nations to give their national team fees and extras to the poor and team staff directly as the Moroccan player does and follow his example. 

I wouldn't use the argument that it's jealousy. This is a trope used by those on the far right who criticise people on benefits for having this opinion about higher taxes etc. I think sometimes the top soccer players need a little reminder from the press how privileged they are.

 

 

 

 

 

Without knowing the inside details of what English players do, how do you know it is "negligible"? Sounds like you are simply confirming a bias (which we all do)

The simple fact is that if a sportsman (or woman) earns £20 a week or £20K a week, they are under no obligation whatsoever to give any of it away to charity. If they do, fantastic. If they don't, it's their business and their conscience. 

 

But to reinforce a point made earlier. It's the players that provide the entertainment and drama on the pitch. So why on earth shouldn't they get the lion's share of any money generated because of that? Surely that's a moral argument too? 

Edited December 12, 2022 by The Masked Poster

[Niels]

1 minute ago, The Masked Poster said:

Without knowing the inside details of what English players do, how do you know it is "negligible"? Sounds like you are simply confirming a bias (which we all do)

The simple fact is that if a sportsman (or woman) earns £20 a week or £20K a week, they are under no obligation whatsoever to give any of it away to charity. If they do, fantastic. If they don't, it's their business and their conscience. 

I agree with you.

This was why I thought it was very admirable of the player I mentioned.

Regarding the game I actually wanted Portugal to win but every team has found Morocco difficult to score against. I am not sure why England think they would have  beaten them. I was saying the same after they beat Spain that the Portuguese forwards would be too good. Saying it and doing it are very different though. 

 

 

[Tommygilf]

4 hours ago, Niels said:

In this culture, Religious players, and a lot of the team are, are obliged to help those poorer. I would be surprised if they don't help. 

Tommy and yourself have pointed out what the England players do but Importantly, my point is  that this is negligible and they should do more.

Firstly, other players do in fact do more.

Secondly, Zakat, or giving to charity, isn't a uniquely Moroccan or uniquely islamic religious virtue that Ziyech is displaying. There isn't some moral ownership of it.

Thirdly, Ziyech earns at least £100k a week at Chelsea. 

[Niels]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

Firstly, other players do in fact do more.

Secondly, Zakat, or giving to charity, isn't a uniquely Moroccan or uniquely islamic religious virtue that Ziyech is displaying. There isn't some moral ownership of it.

Thirdly, Ziyech earns at least £100k a week at Chelsea. 

Ok, as they didn't win the World cup, or the Euros, I will let you and Damien claim the "best charity team" for England.

Even though it isn't a competition!

 

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Niels

[yanto]

10 hours ago, Niels said:

It's a good question and to be honest I am not sure how to answer.

I liked the story of Hakim Ziyach, the Moroccan player, who has never taken any money for playing for his country. He gives it to team staff and poor families in Morocco. 

I think this is part of his Islamic culture where richer people are obligated to help the poor. But not everyone does, and there is no reason why European players can't follow suit.

But I would like to see more players do this. 

Do you think it could be encouraged?

 

 

 

Hakim Ziyach is born and bred in the Netherlands and qualifies for Morocco through his parents so you already have your "European" player doing what you would like to see.

[hw88]

11 hours ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

That seems a bit of a stretch to be honest - didn’t we fail to qualify for the European Championship too in 1972 and 1976?

In 1980 we failed to get out of the group and in 1984 we failed to qualify again.

That’s a lot of failure in the main national team competitions.

I can only really think of Keegan and Shilton as elite players of that time with Brooking maybe at a push.

The truth is that domestic success in European club competitions was mainly being driven by Scottish, Welsh and Irish players playing for the best English clubs of that time.

 

 

1972 got beat by Germany in the QF who went on to win it.

1974 got beat by Poland who went on to finish 3rd.

1976 came 2nd in the qualifying group to Czechoslovakia who went on to win it.

1978 went out on goal difference to Italy in the qualifiers who went on to finish 4th (including beating eventual winners Argentina).

I would say overall disappointing and a tad unlucky but not as disasterous as some make out. Interestingly Italy have just failed to qualify for 2 world cups in succession - I wonder what Italians will make of that in 50 years time?

[JohnM]

11 hours ago, Niels said:

I don't think it's the same though as the Moroccan example is cultural.

The player has given his national team money to the team staff and to actual poorer families in his home country for 7 years.

I agree Zaha is a good example, as he gives to the poor here and in Ivory Coast, but he isn't English either. 

 

According to Wikipedia: Born in the Ivory Coast, Zaha grew up in England from age four. He was educated at Whitehorse Manor Junior School, Thornton Heath and Selsdon High School, Selsdon.Zaha was eligible to represent both the Ivory Coast, the country of his birth, and England, where he grew up.

He made his debut for the England national team in 2012, appearing in two non-competitive matches (the latter of which came in 2013). After not playing for England for four years, he switched to play for Ivory Coast ahead of the 2017 Africa Cup of Nations.

Edited December 12, 2022 by JohnM

[EggFace]

12 hours ago, moorside roughyed said:

Just sent this to my soccer loving brother in law. It gave him a right good old chuckle. 

Did you see the YouTube clip ?

[Gerrumonside ref]

2 hours ago, hw88 said:

1972 got beat by Germany in the QF who went on to win it.

1974 got beat by Poland who went on to finish 3rd.

1976 came 2nd in the qualifying group to Czechoslovakia who went on to win it.

1978 went out on goal difference to Italy in the qualifiers who went on to finish 4th (including beating eventual winners Argentina).

I would say overall disappointing and a tad unlucky but not as disasterous as some make out. Interestingly Italy have just failed to qualify for 2 world cups in succession - I wonder what Italians will make of that in 50 years time?

No one is using words likes disaster - that’s just classic tabloid speak that I don’t go in for personally.

But constant non qualification is not success, it’s failure.

There’s just no getting away from the fact that England were behind the best national teams even though the clubs sides were dominating in European club competitions.

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Gerrumonside ref