This is all our fault...

[The One]

I’d love a four nations next year

[GUBRATS]

3 hours ago, sam4731 said:

I've never been motivated to speak up on here but I feel I have to vent...

We have brought this on ourselves. Australia for years have been developing the game in the pacific Islands for years, not only benefiting those countries but also their own by creating strong competition for places in the NRL, therefore strengthening the kangaroos.

 

What has our attitude been? We've just limited the number of overseas teams in the British system to 2. We sneer at any team outside the M62 corridor, starving them of any support and the game is pretty much non existent in any of the home nations.

For me the international game is probably dead now, we can no longer claim to be on a similar level to Oz and NZ so why should they bother with us?

I personally think the mentality is too ingrained now and there isn't much that we can do to reverse our fortunes.

 

I know I might get slated and there is a strong opposing view but I can't see a way back

BLX 

[GUBRATS]

3 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

The international game isn’t dead it will just be exclusively oceanic cup. Not building Wales or France in last decade is where the fault lies and that’s on the RFL because begging Australia and New Zealand was their only strategy and they have outgrown us.

I don’t see any nation coming up here before World Cup and why should they?

BLX 

[GUBRATS]

3 hours ago, LeytherRob said:

So true, Australia has been way ahead of us. Can't wait to watch the Samoan, PNG, Tongan and multiple NZ teams in the NRL next year. Oh wait....

 

Oz is every bit as insular, probably more so than the UK when it comes to expanding the game. What it does have is massively more money, better facilities and less competition in terms of securing the best athletes into their systems instead of other sports. Acting like another French team, or bringing back Toronto is suddenly going to improve the NH international scene is just nonsense.

Correct 

[Stuff Smith]

20 minutes ago, Jughead said:

The obsession with playing France on Bastille Day when many on here moaned that Toulouse and Catalans played on a national holiday and people couldn’t go, is strange. 

I'm not sure a couple of posts constitutes an obsession.

[Jughead]

1 minute ago, Stuff Smith said:

I'm not sure a couple of posts constitutes an obsession.

It’s continually brought up on here when international calendars are discussed. 

[Davo5]

4 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

BLX 

 

3 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

BLX 

You seem to have developed a strange. attraction to male genitalia tonight.     

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

The lack of any international calendar is a massive problem. Let's say some armchair viewers watched today and were hooked by it. When are England playing next? Who are they playing? Where are they playing? How can somebody buy tickets to go and see them play? The way our sport is run does no favours for the development of the game.

[GUBRATS]

2 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

You`re jumping to a full set of false conclusions.

The current strength of Samoa and Tonga is the culmination of over half a century of migration patterns. Polynesians in the 1960s settled in areas of Auckland where League was strong, and they naturally gravitated towards inner-city clubs like Richmond and Ponsonby. That trend spread through Auckland and the rest of New Zealand to the point where League is now overwhelmingly Pasifika/Māori.

In the past generation or two, substantial numbers from those communities have relocated to Australia taking advantage of the Trans-Tasman Travel Arrangement which allows for free movement between Oz and NZ. In addition, there`s been some migration to Oz directly from the islands.

All this is why there are so many talented players coming through Aussie and Kiwi junior systems who are qualified to play for Samoa and Tonga. It has nothing to do with "Australia developing the game in the pacific islands".

I emigrated to NZ in 1975 , the general consensus was that union was played by ' white ' NZ , while ' league ' was the weekend excuse for the maori's and coconuts ( Pacific Islanders ) to have a punch up 

[GUBRATS]

2 hours ago, Toby Chopra said:

This thread is hysterical. 

We lost a match we could have won because key players - most of whom play in the NRL - made bad decisions at crucial moments. 

But the strengths of the Northern and Southern hemispheres are no different than they were yesterday. 

Just breathe. 

Spot on 

Game was on a knife edge , we witnessed a super try as we did yesterday , they were the difference 

calm down everybody 

[GUBRATS]

1 hour ago, Stuff Smith said:

England should play France.

In France.

Every year.

Agree

[GUBRATS]

46 minutes ago, Stuff Smith said:

I'm not sure a couple of posts constitutes an obsession.

There's been dozens suggesting it for years 

[GUBRATS]

43 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

 

You seem to have developed a strange. attraction to male genitalia tonight.     

Say what you see 

[fighting irish]

I think, on today's performance, the Samoans deserved to win.

It was though, a game that England ''should'' have won, by at least 10 or 15 points.

They seemed to me to be dopey, like they were playing in a stupor or with a heavy hangover.

The pace they started at was very slow, especially compared to their first game against the Samoans a few weeks ago. Was it nausea, stage fright (big occasion anxiety), an inflated self-concept (ego), who knows? but they looked positively pedestrian.

They seemed to lack the desire to work hard without the ball and their marker defense (when it really mattered) was non-existent.

The only time they played with any real passion, was during the 15 minutes or so, when they went 8 points down, in the last quarter. Much too little much too late but even then, they almost did enough to pull off a last-minute shock.

The error count was embarrassing, bad passes, forward passes, dropped catches, missed tackles, turning their backs at the play-the-ball, woeful.

Welsby was a virtual absentee, Watkins seemed vacant and sluggish, Young wasn't given any room to run in. Poor Victor Radley (trying to make something out of nothing) early in the count, gifted them with a long distance try on a plate and the list goes on. Never more regrettably than in the golden point debacle. I don't know why their confidence and willingness to work hard, collapsed today but it was painful to watch. Hopefully, Shaun Wane knows.

Murphy's law in all it's grotesque manifestations.

Now I know everyone here wants to make this into a tale of certain (and sudden) impending doom but I just don't see that. Oh yes Samoa deserved to win but I honestly don't think we will ever play that badly again.  

The biggest challenge for this England squad in the future will be to simply forget how bad this performance was and promise themselves that the next time they take to the field they'll play with the same sense of urgency they started the tournament with and keep up that tempo for the full 80 minutes. That would have been enough to win this game.

Perhaps the blame for this lies with Shaun Wane and the way he's mentally prepared these blokes for today's game? All I know is they were half the side that opened the tournament just a few weeks ago.

[GUBRATS]

10 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

I think, on today's performance, the Samoans deserved to win.

It was though, a game that England ''should'' have won, by at least 10 or 15 points.

They seemed to me to be dopey, like they were playing in a stupor or with a heavy hangover.

The pace they started at was very slow, especially compared to their first game against the Samoans a few weeks ago. Was it nausea, stage fright (big occasion anxiety), an inflated self-concept (ego), who knows? but they looked positively pedestrian.

They seemed to lack the desire to work hard without the ball and their marker defense (when it really mattered) was non-existent.

The only time they played with any real passion, was during the 15 minutes or so, when they went 8 points down, in the last quarter. Much too little much too late but even then, they almost did enough to pull off a last-minute shock.

The error count was embarrassing, bad passes, forward passes, dropped catches, missed tackles, turning their backs at the play-the-ball, woeful.

Welsby was a virtual absentee, Watkins seemed vacant and sluggish, Young wasn't given any room to run in. Poor Victor Radley (trying to make something out of nothing) early in the count, gifted them with a long distance try on a plate and the list goes on. Never more regrettably than in the golden point debacle. I don't know why their confidence and willingness to work hard, collapsed today but it was painful to watch. Hopefully, Shaun Wane knows.

Murphy's law in all it's grotesque manifestations.

Now I know everyone here wants to make this into a tale of certain (and sudden) impending doom but I just don't see that. Oh yes Samoa deserved to win but I honestly don't think we will ever play that badly again.  

The biggest challenge for this England squad in the future will be to simply forget how bad this performance was and promise themselves that the next time they take to the field they'll play with the same sense of urgency they started the tournament with and keep up that tempo for the full 80 minutes. That would have been enough to win this game.

Perhaps the blame for this lies with Shaun Wane and the way he's mentally prepared these blokes for today's game? All I know is they were half the side that opened the tournament just a few weeks ago.

RL , that's what it can be , as you say we came out half asleep , only starting once a fight started , after that we went all out for it ,but threw one daft pass and there we go , that's RL 

[Big Picture]

4 hours ago, Phil said:

We had our chance, a few years ago the RFL had 10 (I think) development officers in London. They didn’t renew their contracts as a cost cutting measure.

False economy of the worst possible kind 

They lost the Sport England funding which supported that and they couldn't afford to support without that funding.  And they lost that funding because the participation numbers didn't measure up to the numbers for which the funding was given.

4 hours ago, LeytherRob said:

So true, Australia has been way ahead of us. Can't wait to watch the Samoan, PNG, Tongan and multiple NZ teams in the NRL next year. Oh wait....

 

Oz is every bit as insular, probably more so than the UK when it comes to expanding the game. What it does have is massively more money, better facilities and less competition in terms of securing the best athletes into their systems instead of other sports. Acting like another French team, or bringing back Toronto is suddenly going to improve the NH international scene is just nonsense.

Very true.  Only a whole new league able to bring in much more money could ever stimulate the growth needed to boost the game in the northern hemisphere.

4 hours ago, eal said:

Wales and France are about 30 years away from being competitive, if ever. The game is really far gone in those countries.

It's pretty far gone in England too in view of how the player pool has shrunk and is shrinking further.

[GUBRATS]

10 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

Ahh you mean one French team constantly at risk of relegation so they have zero incentive to play french players or Toulouse, the French team we forced to ###### away millions on flights to go through part time teams. Those ones? Just do it properly. Catalan and Toulouse cannot get relegated but have minimum French quota in the 17 and play them once a year. 

Do or die time for NH RL

And this is the reason that NH RL has performed so poorly at this WC ? 

[Copa]

5 hours ago, sam4731 said:

For me the international game is probably dead now,

It’s looking stronger than ever.

[kiwi fan]

From a kiwis opinion from the outside looking in, the issue is around promotion/relegation.

Teams will always take the easier option of signing has been aussie/kiwi players to ensure survival Instead of developing players.

Saw it with toulouse this year  ..

[Damien]

1 minute ago, kiwi fan said:

From a kiwis opinion from the outside looking in, the issue is around promotion/relegation.

Teams will always take the easier option of signing has been aussie/kiwi players to ensure survival Instead of developing players.

Saw it with toulouse this year  ..

So why do the bigger teams do it?

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, kiwi fan said:

From a kiwis opinion from the outside looking in, the issue is around promotion/relegation.

Teams will always take the easier option of signing has been aussie/kiwi players to ensure survival Instead of developing players.

Saw it with toulouse this year  ..

BLX 

[Big Picture]

4 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

‘International game is dead’. Turn it in.

England need to play more internationals. Then some more. Then some more again.

Against who though, and where and when?  Certainly not during the midseason break which the IMG plan would enable, all those SH players will be busy in the NRL and/or State leagues then.  And not when there's a postseason Pacific Cup on either, all the SH countries will be busy with that in those years.  What time does that leave open?

4 hours ago, Dunbar said:

I think the bottom line is that we were all delighted when Samoa and Tonga came to the fore to challenge the big 3 and add a new and exciting dimension to the world game.  We can't complain too much now that it has scuppered our hopes.

New Zealand lose a World Cup semi by 2 points, we lose by 1 point in extra time.

The top of the international tree delivers great games.

No not all of us were.  Having two poor, tiny islands less populous than Portsmouth — a city whose soccer club has been in the Premier League for less than 1/4 of its (i.e. the League's) existence — at the top level, represented by teams full of players who've either never lived there or left for greener pastures with their parents when they were little kids is never going to boost the game and anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional.

4 hours ago, The Legend said:

Agree. But not just Wales and France. Scotland and Ireland too. There's only so many players that can represent those nations in Rugby onion. There's room for some to play the greatest code of Rugby

Only if somehow, someone can bring a lot more money into this game and in the process create the foundation for a bigger, better International structure.  As long as RU pays better and provides a bigger stage for them to play on, they're not about to come over to RL.

Edited November 12, 2022 by Big Picture

[Copa]

5 hours ago, LeytherRob said:

So true, Australia has been way ahead of us. Can't wait to watch the Samoan, PNG, Tongan and multiple NZ teams in the NRL next year. Oh wait....

 

Oz is every bit as insular, probably more so than the UK when it comes to expanding the game. What it does have is massively more money, better facilities and less competition in terms of securing the best athletes into their systems instead of other sports. Acting like another French team, or bringing back Toronto is suddenly going to improve the NH international scene is just nonsense.

Australia has accepted a PNG, Fijian and NZ teams into Australian based RL competitions. They enter the competition that’s at their level of skill and the players improve and develop and are signed by other Australian based clubs.

Even before we had a Fijian team playing in a nsw competition there were very large numbers of Fijian players recruited by regional clubs all over nsw.  This really picked up in the lead up to the 2008 World Cup in Australia and they kept on coming.

So there’s a good reason that Fiji pushed NZ all the way in the quarter final match. They’ve been developing in Australia where they are welcomed by many levels of the game.

Australia has been expanding and developing the game in its region at a rate that leaves the RFL’s rate of development and growth in its region for dead.

Edited November 12, 2022 by Copa

[Hate the rec]

5 hours ago, Phil said:

We had our chance, a few years ago the RFL had 10 (I think) development officers in London. They didn’t renew their contracts as a cost cutting measure.

False economy of the worst possible kind 

We've got 1 in Cumbria pal that no one's where he is or what he does you can have him .

[Copa]

16 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

No not all of us were.  Having two poor, tiny islands less populous than Portsmouth — a city whose soccer club has been in the Premier League for less than 1/4 of its (i.e. the League's) existence — at the top level, represented by teams full of players who've either never lived there or left for greener pastures with their parents when they were little kids is never going to boost the game and anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional.

It may not bring in the big $ one would get from bigger economies but will definitely squeeze more money out of the TV market in Oceania. Having more competition against Australia and NZ makes for more valuable tv products to sell into the biggest RL tv market.