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England v France Double Header in Warrington - mid-season 2023


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14 minutes ago, Jughead said:

The difference between a made up side and England and France is that England and France have tournaments to prepare for, England with the unlikely premise of winning it and France, firstly, qualifying for the tournament and competing against bigger nations. 

 

5 minutes ago, Hanover XIII said:

If we're going to go down that road, then this approach should be the Other Nationalities game, surely. England v France has to count for something as a Test match for which caps are awarded irrespective of the entertainment value.

I understand the argument, but I think this is cart before horses.

RL in the NH needs England v France to be an event which draws good crowds and media coverage. That is the immediate priority. Will this be likely if every year the games are one-sided exercises in stop/start tedium punctuated by a bloke searching all available angles for little bobbles?

In the future, if the fixture becomes a guaranteed success as an occasion, the on-field approach could change.

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10 minutes ago, unapologetic pedant said:

 

I understand the argument, but I think this is cart before horses.

RL in the NH needs England v France to be an event which draws good crowds and media coverage. That is the immediate priority. Will this be likely if every year the games are one-sided exercises in stop/start tedium punctuated by a bloke searching all available angles for little bobbles?

In the future, if the fixture becomes a guaranteed success as an occasion, the on-field approach could change.

I think there's something in this, there's way too much nitpicking at the expense of letting the game flow.

However at the same time, the French managed to beat the Aussies years ago while playing to the same rules/standards. Maybe it could happen again? 

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4 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

 

I understand the argument, but I think this is cart before horses.

RL in the NH needs England v France to be an event which draws good crowds and media coverage. That is the immediate priority. Will this be likely if every year the games are one-sided exercises in stop/start tedium punctuated by a bloke searching all available angles for little bobbles?

In the future, if the fixture becomes a guaranteed success as an occasion, the on-field approach could change.

You have to commit to it like the Anzac test. It took us kiwis 15 years to win one Anzac test. But over that time we improved to where you see us now. You have to make an investment into the game and build it every year. France will get there. They just need that regular fixture that won’t be changed for say 10-15 years

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3 hours ago, The Masked Poster said:

However at the same time, the French managed to beat the Aussies years ago while playing to the same rules/standards. Maybe it could happen again? 

If the French want to be sure of recreating their 1950s running game heroics in Wheelchair RL, they could do with touring Australia pretty soon because the gap is bound to narrow.

The Aussies will not for long tolerate the sight of green and gold jerseys on the losing side. As far as I know, there currently isn`t any Wheelchair RL in NZ so without Trans-Tasman fixtures they will have to improve standards independently through SOO and strengthening club competitions.

We`re very fortunate to have England v France as the pinnacle of Wheelchair RL. Underlines what English RL lost when French RL declined.

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14 minutes ago, Iceberg Slim said:

You have to commit to it like the Anzac test. It took us kiwis 15 years to win one Anzac test. But over that time we improved to where you see us now. You have to make an investment into the game and build it every year. France will get there. They just need that regular fixture that won’t be changed for say 10-15 years

I agree. And anything that makes the event more popular and profitable will help lock it in and give the French the best chance to grow their game.

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On 16/11/2022 at 20:49, Eddie said:

Hull have just attracted 7,100 to New Zealand v Fiji in a WC QF, if anything that should rule it out if ever hosting another England game. 

I take it Saints won’t ever get another England game either seeing as they could only get five and a half thousand for a game involving Australia. Or Warrington who struggled to get seven thousand to three matches played at the HJ. It’s easy this game Eddie.

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10 minutes ago, Gomersall said:

I take it Saints won’t ever get another England game either seeing as they could only get five and a half thousand for a game involving Australia. Or Warrington who struggled to get seven thousand to three matches played at the HJ. It’s easy this game Eddie.

Yep, it’s quite clear from this WC that those grounds don’t attract good international attendances. 

Edited by Eddie
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2 hours ago, Eddie said:

Yep, it’s quite clear from this WC that those grounds don’t attract good international attendances. 

Precisely. It's not either/or. Both grounds didn't achieve great levels of attendance.

The problem is that  anyone staging a similar game in, say, Birmingham and getting 9k would be castigated as a failure and proof that 'people aren't interested "

So it's a difficult battle on someone's hands.

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10 hours ago, Gomersall said:

I take it Saints won’t ever get another England game either seeing as they could only get five and a half thousand for a game involving Australia. Or Warrington who struggled to get seven thousand to three matches played at the HJ. It’s easy this game Eddie.

It really is.

Stop playing games at grounds that consistently fail to deliver decent attendances - unless and until you've addressed the issues that led to those lower than desired numbers.

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50 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

It really is.

Stop playing games at grounds that consistently fail to deliver decent attendances - unless and until you've addressed the issues that led to those lower than desired numbers.

I'm not gonna blindly defend Warrington, but I'm reluctant to criticise any place that has delivered poor crowds. The organisers have to take the responsibility for not selling their events out. 

We can't go down a route of playing everything at Leeds, it's a rather brutal ground aesthetically with a poor crowd in. 

In reality, playing a game at a modern 15k ground within 20 minutes of St Helens, Wire, Wigan, Widnes, Leigh and an hour or so of most of the rest of the core RL clubs really isn't a controversial choice. 

I know I bang on about it all the time, but if there's one thing to learn from this WC it's to make the events fun and one that people really enjoy attending. Because to be honest, they are just a bit boring most of the time. 

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8 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I know I bang on about it all the time, but if there's one thing to learn from this WC it's to make the events fun and one that people really enjoy attending. Because to be honest, they are just a bit boring most of the time. 

This was a key part of my point: "unless and until you've addressed the issues that led to those lower than desired numbers".

I'm not convinced that anything has really been learnt but I would love to be proved wrong.

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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This is as much about France as it is England. They need to make the quarters for France 2025. If they can get this fixture cemented for the next 3 years they can plan to play this fixture and hope to by 2025 be within one score which would be huge. You then plan to beat a Lebanon or png from making a quarter final in 2025

 

for England you blood a very young team over the next 3 years with only sl based players and you build that squad going into 2025. I would even push to use as many fringe players and get them caps and build the wider pool of players. If done right you’ve can hit 2025 and be confident to make the final. 
 

it’s all about consistency and regularity and giving time to develop combinations. I think all World Cup squads were abit lacking in terms of cohesion. France 2025will be a good reflection of who has prepared well. 

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1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

This was a key part of my point: "unless and until you've addressed the issues that led to those lower than desired numbers".

I'm not convinced that anything has really been learnt but I would love to be proved wrong.

Understood, I think the references to where we play the games are almost irrelevant to an extent, because we tend to stage the games in the same way wherever we hire a ground and open the turnstiles and hope People turn up! 

Based on the WC, international rl events felt like they had gone back to the dark ages, so I do worry we are gonna see another 7k nothing event. 

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I don't think, e.g., Warrington and Leigh are poor venue choices per se. The problem is that they have become associated with these low-key efforts through overuse. We've had decent crowds for internationals at both venues but now they are just shorthand for 'meh'. The plan for 29 April entrenches this view.

The RFL really should be going all out to make the best of what we have with France. Two weekends a year should be set aside for Test series that involve the men, women and wheelchair teams at 6 different venues on 6 different days. There needs to be a named trophy up for grabs. It needs a broadcast partner, a headline sponsor, and needs dates setting for 2023-25. Really, if all of that is too hard and too costly to do, we've got the wrong people in charge. A one-off double header in Warrington with incredibly cheap tickets - how did that get through a planning meeting?

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54 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

I don't think, e.g., Warrington and Leigh are poor venue choices per se. The problem is that they have become associated with these low-key efforts through overuse. We've had decent crowds for internationals at both venues but now they are just shorthand for 'meh'. The plan for 29 April entrenches this view.

The RFL really should be going all out to make the best of what we have with France. Two weekends a year should be set aside for Test series that involve the men, women and wheelchair teams at 6 different venues on 6 different days. There needs to be a named trophy up for grabs. It needs a broadcast partner, a headline sponsor, and needs dates setting for 2023-25. Really, if all of that is too hard and too costly to do, we've got the wrong people in charge. A one-off double header in Warrington with incredibly cheap tickets - how did that get through a planning meeting?

They have planning meetings! 😳

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In the attendance WC thread we touched on the England Supporters Club - basically the RFL half-assed it again.

It feels like with 3 years to go to France, we should go big on this. Make events like this all about that, try and build up some kind of sense of belonging around the England RL team, create a buzz and an atmosphere - with a view then that we will be looking to have tours to France for official fan groups. 

The journey to France 2025 should start with that game - launch the World Cup journey. We need to start engaging with fans - 15k for England v France shouldn't be too much of a challenge.

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41 minutes ago, Dave T said:

In the attendance WC thread we touched on the England Supporters Club - basically the RFL half-assed it again.

It feels like with 3 years to go to France, we should go big on this. Make events like this all about that, try and build up some kind of sense of belonging around the England RL team, create a buzz and an atmosphere - with a view then that we will be looking to have tours to France for official fan groups. 

The journey to France 2025 should start with that game - launch the World Cup journey. We need to start engaging with fans - 15k for England v France shouldn't be too much of a challenge.

Well 3 of us are going to the game, and we did not go to any WC games at warrington, so you have an additional 3 fans right now for the game

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3 hours ago, Iceberg Slim said:

This is as much about France as it is England. They need to make the quarters for France 2025. If they can get this fixture cemented for the next 3 years they can plan to play this fixture and hope to by 2025 be within one score which would be huge. You then plan to beat a Lebanon or png from making a quarter final in 2025

 

for England you blood a very young team over the next 3 years with only sl based players and you build that squad going into 2025. I would even push to use as many fringe players and get them caps and build the wider pool of players. If done right you’ve can hit 2025 and be confident to make the final. 
 

it’s all about consistency and regularity and giving time to develop combinations. I think all World Cup squads were abit lacking in terms of cohesion. France 2025will be a good reflection of who has prepared well. 

It's worth remembering that France were only 18-14 down at Bolton at half-time against England. Against Samoa the injuries in the backs made it impossible.

England should go without NRL players next April. France with Bousquet and Navarrete fit adding along with other forwards Sangare, Springer and Dezeria could make a difference up front too.

Edited by audois
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9 minutes ago, audois said:

It's worth remembering that France were only 18-14 down at Bolton at half-time against England. Against Samoa the injuries in the backs made it impossible.

England should go without NRL players next April. France with Bousquet and Navarrete fit adding along with other forwards Sangare, Springer and Dezeria could make a difference up front too.

If Fages is about and Gigot not selected - that will help too. I think it will be a lot closer if France can start well.

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3 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

I think England should play some of the players on the fringes of the squad, player like mikey lewis, ash handley, leeming etc

if i see players like ryan hall and mickey mac selected I’ll despair 

Yes - plenty need blooding. 

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23 minutes ago, Leonard said:

If Fages is about and Gigot not selected - that will help too. I think it will be a lot closer if France can start well.

It’s a cliche but it’s true, you can’t win a game in the first twenty minutes but you can certainly lose it.

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15 hours ago, Gomersall said:

I take it Saints won’t ever get another England game either seeing as they could only get five and a half thousand for a game involving Australia. Or Warrington who struggled to get seven thousand to three matches played at the HJ. It’s easy this game Eddie.

Personally I'd think it was more the state of the pitch at Saints... at least Leeds replaced the grass so it would be in good condition for the world cup. 

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