Where could Barrow Raiders end up?

[GUBRATS]

What I always find interesting when visiting Barra , is you can tell it's shipbuilding history by studying the stand at Craven Park , big ' cast ' posts and various other definite shipbuilding skills from the early 20th century ( not criticising ) , have a look next time you go 

[Death to the Rah Rah's]

seems crazy that Barrow FC and Barrow RLFC couldn't groundshare in order to get a nice modern 8,000 capacity stadium. Obviously 50-50 split, but both of the town's clubs will struggle to progress any further without modern hospitality in a modern ground, although same could be said for the likes of Bradford, Whitehaven, Swinton and most of League One.

Barrow RFLC have done some tremendous work in raising their profile since Steve Neale took over, hopefully they can kick on and establish themselves as a championship force for the foreseeable  

[Madrileño]

3 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

Not sure they would given their relatively small population size of around 60 odd thousand. Yes its more than the population of Leigh but they can attract fans from a wider area around Greater Manchester. For Barrow there isn't that many other conurbations around them to try and attract fans from so they'll always be on the back foot in terms of getting good crowds.

Given we're moving towards licencing this would probably see them struggle to convince IMG that they can grow to such an extent to get an A Grade licence.

Pretty much my thoughts as well. Hence the question.

Progressive club, but will struggle to grow dramatically due to a smallish population. 

[Madrileño]

4 hours ago, hw88 said:

Who knows but if they were holding their own and not getting thrashed every week they couldn't be much worse than Salford or London - and they are much bigger and more accessible than Barrow.

OK. However they could only "hold their own" on tiny crowds if a benefactor was putting in a lot of his own money.

That is fine short term, but as the salary cap needs to grow substantially in order for Super League to compete with NRL/union, then a small club on limited crowds (Barrow) would not be sustainable in the league longer term. We can't expect a benefactor to keep throwing in money to keep pace with a rising salary cap. This is why I was asking about Barrow's potential revenue stream. 

[Saint Toppy]

3 hours ago, Eddie said:

If a club is from a town of 60,000 then 8,000 is a ridiculous figure. If Barrow could get 5k in every week that would be fine, the ground would be busy and it would look good on tv too.  
 

London, Wakey, Huddersfield and Salford have shown that it is very difficult for some clubs to increase attendances, whatever they do on the field. those clubs like Barrow who have managed it should be applauded. 

Crowds of 5K isn't fine, its appalling for a top flight club. How can a club with crowds like that ever expect to compete with ones getting 12K-13K and all the extra income that comes with that ? Poor crowds is something that IMG seriously need to address if they want to grow the sport and make it more attractive to TV companies & sponsors. Crowds should be a licensing criteria and the cut-off for being able to achieve an A License should be set well above 5K.

Whether we like it or not RL is a business and all this sentiment of give the little guy a go doesn't cut it when it comes to the commercial viability of the sport.

[SJD]

2 hours ago, Ovenden Grunt said:

Correct they have that title but everyone knows why. They kept the brass that went with it as well which is what gets me as much as the trophy.  

Maybe everyone doesn't know why, remember the last person to make that suggestion publicly ended up forking out a sizeable sum of money, so what exactly are you getting at that you know and the rest of us don't.

[hw88]

2 hours ago, Madrileño said:

OK. However they could only "hold their own" on tiny crowds if a benefactor was putting in a lot of his own money.

That is fine short term, but as the salary cap needs to grow substantially in order for Super League to compete with NRL/union, then a small club on limited crowds (Barrow) would not be sustainable in the league longer term. We can't expect a benefactor to keep throwing in money to keep pace with a rising salary cap. This is why I was asking about Barrow's potential revenue stream. 

I don't disagree with you but where is the money going to come from to grow the salary cap?

[Ovenden Grunt]

23 minutes ago, SJD said:

Maybe everyone doesn't know why, remember the last person to make that suggestion publicly ended up forking out a sizeable sum of money, so what exactly are you getting at that you know and the rest of us don't.

It's all out there in public. Try Wikipedia 'Barrow Raiders 2009' P.S  they'll get nowt out of me!

[hw88]

15 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Crowds of 5K isn't fine, its appalling for a top flight club. How can a club with crowds like that ever expect to compete with ones getting 12K-13K and all the extra income that comes with that ? Poor crowds is something that IMG seriously need to address if they want to grow the sport and make it more attractive to TV companies & sponsors. Crowds should be a licensing criteria and the cut-off for being able to achieve an A License should be set well above 5K.

Whether we like it or not RL is a business and all this sentiment of give the little guy a go doesn't cut it when it comes to the commercial viability of the sport.

Crowds are what they are. Yes we would all like them to be bigger but the days of 30,000 at St Helens v Wigan at Knowsley Road are long gone. There is too much competition from other sports, tv and other leisure activities. Who would have thought 40 years ago that shopping would become a leisure activity rather than a chore?

How do you make it more attractive to potential customers? People either like watching RL or they don't. If they don't like it or are merely ambivalent no amount of tarting the product up will tempt people into stadia. What should the cut-off figure for an A license be? 7,000? 8,000? Higher? Set it too high and you will end up with a league of 4 teams. Going on last season only 4 teams had an average of 5 figure crowds - Wigan, St Helens, Leeds and Hull.

[Saint Toppy]

17 minutes ago, hw88 said:

Crowds are what they are. Yes we would all like them to be bigger but the days of 30,000 at St Helens v Wigan at Knowsley Road are long gone. There is too much competition from other sports, tv and other leisure activities. Who would have thought 40 years ago that shopping would become a leisure activity rather than a chore?

How do you make it more attractive to potential customers? People either like watching RL or they don't. If they don't like it or are merely ambivalent no amount of tarting the product up will tempt people into stadia. What should the cut-off figure for an A license be? 7,000? 8,000? Higher? Set it too high and you will end up with a league of 4 teams. Going on last season only 4 teams had an average of 5 figure crowds - Wigan, St Helens, Leeds and Hull.

This is the whole point of IMG's role to help put things in place to grow the sport. Yes the days of 30-40K crowds are long gone but that certainly doesn't mean we should be settling for average pathetic crowds of 5-6K. What kind of an image does that portray to potential new sponsors or TV companies. It says were a small time sport and were happy to stay that way. The only way the sport will grow is to generate more income from 3rd parties, and in order to do that we need to make the sport and the clubs as attractive as possible as well as the product itself on the pitch (which most of us all agree is a pretty good product to start with).

Its time to draw that line in the sand and say we can't continue with top flight clubs with poor stadia, poor crowds, living on the breadline year after year teetering on bankruptcy from one season to the next. Its time for clubs to grow & improve and if you want an A Grade license and a guaranteed spot in SL then level yourselves up to match what the top clubs are already managing to achieve. The sport needs to be aiming for a SL with 12-14 clubs on the same level as a Saints, Leeds & Wigan, not a league with a large number of clubs like Wakefield, Salford etc.

As romantic a notion as it may be to the traditionalists to have a club like Barrow in SL, the reality is they're unlikely ever to be able to achieve a level to be able to match it with the top clubs. Barrow need a very wealthy owner to come in, build a new stadium and market the hell out of the club to massively increase crowds & sponsors. Personally I can't see that happening anytime soon.

[Hopping Mad]

26 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

As romantic a notion as it may be to the traditionalists to have a club like Barrow in SL, the reality is they're unlikely ever to be able to achieve a level to be able to match it with the top clubs. Barrow need a very wealthy owner to come in, build a new stadium and market the hell out of the club to massively increase crowds & sponsors. Personally I can't see that happening anytime soon.

Despite fielding some decent sides over the years, Barrow have never been a big rugby league club. No particular reason or likelihood they ever will be.

In Barrow, as in many towns (and cities) across Britain, there is the not insignificant matter of another professional club - or clubs - playing a different sport that a sizeable chunk of the population prefers watching. The cumulative effect is to drag each other down.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Hopping Mad

[Davo5]

I’d think for the next 5 yrs they’ll be happy to be a good Championsjp club who regularly make the playoffs & continue to grow off the pitch.

[GUBRATS]

4 hours ago, Death to the Rah Rah's said:

seems crazy that Barrow FC and Barrow RLFC couldn't groundshare in order to get a nice modern 8,000 capacity stadium. Obviously 50-50 split, but both of the town's clubs will struggle to progress any further without modern hospitality in a modern ground, although same could be said for the likes of Bradford, Whitehaven, Swinton and most of League One.

Barrow RFLC have done some tremendous work in raising their profile since Steve Neale took over, hopefully they can kick on and establish themselves as a championship force for the foreseeable  

The two grounds are literally a couple of decent kicks apart , and are both of similar size and capacity , but we know how these things play out

[GUBRATS]

1 hour ago, Saint Toppy said:

This is the whole point of IMG's role to help put things in place to grow the sport. Yes the days of 30-40K crowds are long gone but that certainly doesn't mean we should be settling for average pathetic crowds of 5-6K. What kind of an image does that portray to potential new sponsors or TV companies. It says were a small time sport and were happy to stay that way. The only way the sport will grow is to generate more income from 3rd parties, and in order to do that we need to make the sport and the clubs as attractive as possible as well as the product itself on the pitch (which most of us all agree is a pretty good product to start with).

Its time to draw that line in the sand and say we can't continue with top flight clubs with poor stadia, poor crowds, living on the breadline year after year teetering on bankruptcy from one season to the next. Its time for clubs to grow & improve and if you want an A Grade license and a guaranteed spot in SL then level yourselves up to match what the top clubs are already managing to achieve. The sport needs to be aiming for a SL with 12-14 clubs on the same level as a Saints, Leeds & Wigan, not a league with a large number of clubs like Wakefield, Salford etc.

As romantic a notion as it may be to the traditionalists to have a club like Barrow in SL, the reality is they're unlikely ever to be able to achieve a level to be able to match it with the top clubs. Barrow need a very wealthy owner to come in, build a new stadium and market the hell out of the club to massively increase crowds & sponsors. Personally I can't see that happening anytime soon.

Calm down , nobody , certainly not Barrow themselves have suggested anything like that , as I put , they are doing ok , let's see where that takes them , as it should be with ALL clubs 

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Calm down , nobody , certainly not Barrow themselves have suggested anything like that , as I put , they are doing ok , let's see where that takes them , as it should be with ALL clubs 

Yup - some disrespectful stuff being posted.

As one of the few areas that actually plays RL - a team in SL in Barrow (which is the only realistic choice in Cumbria) would be interesting. With a fair wind and catchment area they could get 8k and, as posted, they own their ground.

I'm not sure the area can simply be ignored because we are flush with people elsewhere looking to watch RL.

At least there is something there to build on - compared to all the other failed expansions.

I'm not suggesting they should be fast tracked - but if they make it on their own accord then good on them.

Watched them lose to Skolars a few years back - so clearly doing well on and off the pitch.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Leonard

[GUBRATS]

6 minutes ago, Leonard said:

Yup - some disrespectful stuff being posted.

As one of the few areas that actually plays RL - a team in SL in Barrow (which is the only realistic choice in Cumbria) would be interesting. With a fair wind and catchment area they could get 8k and, as posted, they own their ground.

I'm not sure the area can simply be ignored because we are flush with people elsewhere looking to watch RL.

At least there is something there to build on - compared to all the other failed expansions.

I'm not suggesting they should be fast tracked - but if they make it on their own accord then good on them.

Watched them lose to Skolars a few years back - so clearly doing well on and off the pitch.

Too many are too quick to judge , Barra are a good club well run with a good strong fan base , SL ? , May be too far for them , but if they force their way in , they deserve their chance like anybody else 

[SJD]

1 hour ago, Hopping Mad said:

Despite fielding some decent sides over the years, Barrow have never been a big rugby league club. No particular reason or likelihood they ever will be.

 

Really?  You might want to take a good look at the club's history.

I remember as a teenager watching Barrow playing the touring New Zealand side and coming very close, Barrow were good enough for NZ to add to that tour as a side that could challenge them. Just one example, there are many, many more.

Suggesting never is disrespectful. 

 

[Madrileño]

21 minutes ago, SJD said:

Really?  You might want to take a good look at the club's history.

I remember as a teenager watching Barrow playing the touring New Zealand side and coming very close, Barrow were good enough for NZ to add to that tour as a side that could challenge them. Just one example, there are many, many more.

Suggesting never is disrespectful. 

 

When was this please?

[Blind side johnny]

10 hours ago, Bearman said:

The BoD are doing a fantastic job. Chairman Steve Neale has transformed the club.

I believe that the club ethos is to consolidate, grow and gradually improve all aspects of the club. This includes the ground.

The Matt Johnson Stadium ( Craven Park) is, being old has its problems but...

Being old it has the air of tradition that is often lost in new stadiums 

Has a fantastic location, being close to the town centre it can tap into the local night life culture.

Being owned by the club is a valuable income stream

Gradual improvements will allow the stadium to be improved

The playing surface is quick draining and is usually conductive to fast Rugby.

Barrow RLFC has a close link with the Barrow public and the locals really do feel as though it is THEIR club. This can be shown as Paul Crarey the coach. Paul is from Furness and played for the club and his passion shows through. 

Where can they get to? Perhaps Castleford could be an example of what can be achieved? Castleford has a similar town feel but Barrow has more of a " big" town feel as it is the focus of the whole S. Cumbria/ Furness population.

 

One of my favourite grounds to visit - a proper RL ground with great fans. A shame that they got rid of the gents in the middle of the stand - that was always a talking point.   

 

The turnaround at the club under the new board has been remarkable. It wasn't so many years ago that the Barrow chairman was just moaning and groaning every week about it not being as good as the old days. What a remarkable transition and a lesson to other clubs in the lower divisions.

[Blind side johnny]

32 minutes ago, SJD said:

Really?  You might want to take a good look at the club's history.

I remember as a teenager watching Barrow playing the touring New Zealand side and coming very close, Barrow were good enough for NZ to add to that tour as a side that could challenge them. Just one example, there are many, many more.

Suggesting never is disrespectful. 

 

Get hold of a copy of "Willie" if you don't already have it. One of the best books on RL that I have read, and I have read a fair few.

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, Blind side johnny said:

 

One of my favourite grounds to visit - a proper RL ground with great fans. A shame that they got rid of the gents in the middle of the stand - that was always a talking point.   

 

The turnaround at the club under the new board has been remarkable. It wasn't so many years ago that the Barrow chairman was just moaning and groaning every week about it not being as good as the old days. What a remarkable transition and a lesson to other clubs in the lower divisions.

Yes , the height of luxury , dispensing with unwanted fluid and watching RL at the same time , who says blokes can't multi task ? 

They are doing great , long may it continue , and others might look to emulate them , just ring up for a chat , I'm sure they'll pass on their thinking , then it's up to others to see if they can use the experience passed on 

[The Blues Ox]

4 hours ago, SJD said:

Maybe everyone doesn't know why, remember the last person to make that suggestion publicly ended up forking out a sizeable sum of money, so what exactly are you getting at that you know and the rest of us don't.

Whats the story behind this then? Not heard that before. The RFL found them guilty of cheating at the time, did this get reversed?

[Rowan]

NEVER is a long time. So to suggest that Barrow has NEVEER been a big club is stretching a point. Without giving my age away (it's a lot) I have been on Craven Park with crowds of between 15,000 - 20,000 back in the late 40s/early 50s. Barrow went to Wembley three times in the fifties, had an international three quarter line of Jimmy Lewthwaite, Phil Jackson, Dennis Goodwin and Frank Castle, led by a Great Britain Ashes winning stand-off and captain by the name of Willie Horne. A legend in the game. (Ask Alec Murphy!) a Lance Todd Trophy winner in Jack Grundy and a fair sprinkling of star names since those days. Of course they will never come back and we don't expect them to.

Right now I couldn't care less if Barrow are never a Super League club (which is Super in name only anyway) but the club is on the up under chairman Steve Neale and his board and local coach Paul Crarey (Championship coach of the year 2022) who has worked wonders in the local game. How many clubs can claim to have 11 players on their staff who have graduated through the local amateur scene.

Barrow are doing fine and we are all enjoying it. And we know that nothing lasts forever.

[GUBRATS]

3 minutes ago, Rowan said:

NEVER is a long time. So to suggest that Barrow has NEVEER been a big club is stretching a point. Without giving my age away (it's a lot) I have been on Craven Park with crowds of between 15,000 - 20,000 back in the late 40s/early 50s. Barrow went to Wembley three times in the fifties, had an international three quarter line of Jimmy Lewthwaite, Phil Jackson, Dennis Goodwin and Frank Castle, led by a Great Britain Ashes winning stand-off and captain by the name of Willie Horne. A legend in the game. (Ask Alec Murphy!) a Lance Todd Trophy winner in Jack Grundy and a fair sprinkling of star names since those days. Of course they will never come back and we don't expect them to.

Right now I couldn't care less if Barrow are never a Super League club (which is Super in name only anyway) but the club is on the up under chairman Steve Neale and his board and local coach Paul Crarey (Championship coach of the year 2022) who has worked wonders in the local game. How many clubs can claim to have 11 players on their staff who have graduated through the local amateur scene.

Barrow are doing fine and we are all enjoying it. And we know that nothing lasts forever.

Bob on

[hw88]

2 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

This is the whole point of IMG's role to help put things in place to grow the sport. Yes the days of 30-40K crowds are long gone but that certainly doesn't mean we should be settling for average pathetic crowds of 5-6K. What kind of an image does that portray to potential new sponsors or TV companies. It says were a small time sport and were happy to stay that way. The only way the sport will grow is to generate more income from 3rd parties, and in order to do that we need to make the sport and the clubs as attractive as possible as well as the product itself on the pitch (which most of us all agree is a pretty good product to start with).

Its time to draw that line in the sand and say we can't continue with top flight clubs with poor stadia, poor crowds, living on the breadline year after year teetering on bankruptcy from one season to the next. Its time for clubs to grow & improve and if you want an A Grade license and a guaranteed spot in SL then level yourselves up to match what the top clubs are already managing to achieve. The sport needs to be aiming for a SL with 12-14 clubs on the same level as a Saints, Leeds & Wigan, not a league with a large number of clubs like Wakefield, Salford etc.

As romantic a notion as it may be to the traditionalists to have a club like Barrow in SL, the reality is they're unlikely ever to be able to achieve a level to be able to match it with the top clubs. Barrow need a very wealthy owner to come in, build a new stadium and market the hell out of the club to massively increase crowds & sponsors. Personally I can't see that happening anytime soon.

You say that the product is pretty good to start with - I don't disagree with you - yet only 4 clubs have 5 figure attendances and a further 4 or 5 have crowds of 5,000 or thereabouts. If the product is that good why aren't they packing them in? What is keeping people away? Does the quality of the stadia affect attendance that much? Have Hull's, Wigan's and St Helens' crowds shot up after they moved to a new ground?

Virtually all sports clubs live on the breadline - think Bury, Derby, Wasps, any number of ice hockey and speedway teams - and RL clubs are no different. They have no money to grow and improve - very few can build a new stadium and a competitive team at the same time. Relying on sponsors or rich owners isn't the way to go - much too fickle. Getting on terrestrial tv like in the old days is the best/only way to market the sport. At the end of the day though you can't force people through the turnstiles.

Why a SL of only 14 teams? Where does that leave the teams on the outside? No chance of promotion = death. What about new teams, who will create a new team in an expansion area if they have zero chance of reaching the top? Cornwall may as well pack up now. Remember how Keighley were shafted because they weren't a big name team? A SL of 18 teams would have room for everybody - the NRL has 16 teams and is expanding. You don't grow by staying with a small elite clique.

Barrow have been able to 'match it' with clubs in the past, why shouldn't they do so again. So have Oldham, Batley, Workington and a whole host of others. You say clubs like Barrow need a wealthy owner to come in and take over - you may well be right - but at the end of the day the people of Barrow are already well aware of the club, what could said billionaire do to increase their awareness of something they are already familiar with.