French Domestic Attendances

[Harry Stottle]

22 minutes ago, Leonard said:

I didn't say Batley were in SL either or that crowd was.

I'm not interested in engaging further.

You think Leigh is the future, other opinions are available. It's all good.

But you did imply Leigh was in SL in '16 "Leigh managed to get about the same as Toulouse in their first SL season"

You are correct though, it is boring.

[ATLANTISMAN]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Did you watch the game on Sunday Limoux v Carcassone? these are the two clubs who are in position 1 & 2 in the French League, the game was competitive and a decent watch but to consider that any of those on show (the Carcassone No16 may suit a middling Championship club) would be of any benefit to SL clubs is not worth considering, so I am at a loss of how in the short term they would be of benefit to SL clubs and moreso the international game.

Just checked the recent French WC squad, of the 24 player's selected 13 were Catalan, 8 Toulouse, 1 a squad player from an English SL club and 2 Championship player's, not one Elite player included.

Hi Harry,

Yes I see your point however the talent is there (Especially at junior level) many are poached later by RU clubs this needs to stop.

The area that has produced the most French SL players is actually not Perpignan but Provence especially one small club called St Martin Le Cru (Apologies if wrong spelling:) Considering how small the footprint is in France i would argue that they produce a larger % of potential players than England.

Considering that the NRL will be concentrating now on the Pacific region International wise for political reasons we really need France.

Another good idea would be to replicate the RU autumn internationals have 4 teams come over every year and play one game each (Plus maybe one in France) old style tours are dead.

 

P 

 

 

[sweaty craiq]

Atlantisman you started all this by stating the truth about French RL not having a cat in hells chance of a tv deal to cover just 2 clubs.

If that’s the case then the money is better spent generating income in the homeland, was my reply.

I would welcome 4 French clubs in an expanded SL structure but they must not call upon the UK deal, so without that can 2 or 4 clubs compete in SL?

30 Womens RL development officers taken as the GB squad plus another 10 from the wheelchair squad can go a long way in making the sport stronger financially here imo

[eal]

10 hours ago, Madrileño said:

Where did you get this figure from please? It sounds like nonsense. 

I asked the guy I know who was at the game, and he said "about 700" .

Someone who was at the game put this figure out there on the Elite 1 Round 8 thread on this forum.

[Madrileño]

54 minutes ago, ATLANTISMAN said:

 

Another good idea would be to replicate the RU autumn internationals have 4 teams come over every year and play one game each 

Realistically, would that be profitable? 

Look at the crowds England get for 1 off internationals.  How on earth would they make it worthwhile for 4 teams (plus themselves)?

 

[ATLANTISMAN]

1 hour ago, Madrileño said:

Realistically, would that be profitable? 

Look at the crowds England get for 1 off internationals.  How on earth would they make it worthwhile for 4 teams (plus themselves)?

 

You play them in the right venues simple 

 

P 

[ATLANTISMAN]

1 hour ago, sweaty craiq said:

Atlantisman you started all this by stating the truth about French RL not having a cat in hells chance of a tv deal to cover just 2 clubs.

If that’s the case then the money is better spent generating income in the homeland, was my reply.

I would welcome 4 French clubs in an expanded SL structure but they must not call upon the UK deal, so without that can 2 or 4 clubs compete in SL?

30 Womens RL development officers taken as the GB squad plus another 10 from the wheelchair squad can go a long way in making the sport stronger financially here imo

Its not just the TV money (And anyway SKY will be dead as a dodo in a few years) it will all be down to the league controlling its own output and generating revenue from subscriptions.

There are currently only 2 teams in SL generating what i would call a real turnover Leeds and Catalans thats it.

 

P 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, ATLANTISMAN said:

Its not just the TV money (And anyway SKY will be dead as a dodo in a few years) it will all be down to the league controlling its own output and generating revenue from subscriptions.

There are currently only 2 teams in SL generating what i would call a real turnover Leeds and Catalans thats it.

 

P 

 

Yes. But somehow SL is doing Catalans a favour apparently.

Catalans put a lot of traditional clubs to shame commercially.

[Hello]

It's easy to get bored and angry with certain posters (one in particular) banging on about how it's "blah blah impossible to expand the game because noone outside the heartland could ever like RL"  because they're so afraid that if the game ever did become more popular then their small home town team might drop out of the top tier of the domestic game. Talk about being "King of Nothing".  

Edited December 6, 2022 by Hello

[sweaty craiq]

3 hours ago, ATLANTISMAN said:

Its not just the TV money (And anyway SKY will be dead as a dodo in a few years) it will all be down to the league controlling its own output and generating revenue from subscriptions.

There are currently only 2 teams in SL generating what i would call a real turnover Leeds and Catalans thats it.

 

P 

 

Do Catalans get a good sum from the local council/mayor? I have been told RU clubs get looked after that way?

what sort of T/O do Catalans have and why can’t it be reciprocated at another 2/3 clubs?

[Madrileño]

15 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

 

Just checked the recent French WC squad, of the 24 player's selected 13 were Catalan, 8 Toulouse, 1 a squad player from an English SL club and 2 Championship player's, not one Elite player included.

The French coach said before the tournament (at their warm up game) that it was the first time ever that France had picked a fully professional squad. No part time players.  This has to be a step in the right direction IMO. It does though make their performance all the more disappointing but I guess it is indicative of the leagues the players play in. 

[Madrileño]

13 hours ago, ATLANTISMAN said:

 

Yes I see your point however the talent is there (Especially at junior level) many are poached later by RU clubs this needs to stop.

 

 

How will it stop without a better career pathway?

Fifth tier union in France is considerably more professional than Elite 1, yet we have rugby league 'fans' on here who want Toulouse relegated and back to playing in a part time league in England. Just when we started to feel like we were finally getting somewhere - you had people who wanted some run down English mining village promoted instead of Toulouse!

League is absolutely screwed in France unless these so called 'fans' embrace a second professional French team (and probably a 3rd one into their second tier). Otherwise players will always choose union: more money, less travel (below the top level) and a far more professional environment in terms of coaching/performance environment. 

[Harry Stottle]

56 minutes ago, Madrileño said:

The French coach said before the tournament (at their warm up game) that it was the first time ever that France had picked a fully professional squad. No part time players.  This has to be a step in the right direction IMO. It does though make their performance all the more disappointing but I guess it is indicative of the leagues the players play in. 

Being SL? 22/24 of the French selection play in the SL.

I am not going to be totally dismissive of the point you make though, exactly half 12/24 of the England squad either presently play in the NRL or have the experience of playing there.

[Barley Mow]

2 hours ago, Madrileño said:

The French coach said before the tournament (at their warm up game) that it was the first time ever that France had picked a fully professional squad. No part time players.  This has to be a step in the right direction IMO. It does though make their performance all the more disappointing but I guess it is indicative of the leagues the players play in. 

I agree with you here up to your last sentence.

I think it is less indicative of the league that the French players play in, but the number of full time French players there are: They were able to announce a squad of 24 full timers, but how many full time players missed out on the squad? It can't have been more than a handful. They will have had approximately 30 full time players to select from - the result is inevitably that some of those players won't be the stars at their clubs, they will be squad players. The higher ranked nations have hundreds of full time professionals to select from.

It isn't that they play in SL rather than NRL, but the numbers that exist. I would back a SL only England team to still be in the top 5 nations, but they would have a lot more depth to select from than France.

Edited December 7, 2022 by Barley Mow

[Harry Stottle]

2 hours ago, Madrileño said:

How will it stop without a better career pathway?

Fifth tier union in France is considerably more professional than Elite 1, yet we have rugby league 'fans' on here who want Toulouse relegated and back to playing in a part time league in England. Just when we started to feel like we were finally getting somewhere - you had people who wanted some run down English mining village promoted instead of Toulouse!

League is absolutely screwed in France unless these so called 'fans' embrace a second professional French team (and probably a 3rd one into their second tier). Otherwise players will always choose union: more money, less travel (below the top level) and a far more professional environment in terms of coaching/performance environment. 

The only SL club I can recall anyone naming to be relegated as a preference was Wakefield, many on this site stated publicly, "Basket Case", Badly Run", "Don't deserve to be in the top flight" etc, etc. Totally out of order.

Then there is the lot who prefer that on field performance should be the trigger that deems relegation, finish the bottom of the pile - whoever you are and you get relegated - it could so easily have been Warrington last season and who would they have had to blame for that, nobody only themselves. Unfortunately it was T.O. blaming the loss of two player's who jointly had 20 years experience of playing in the British game but never exposed to SL level, bad excuse again it was like Warrington down to bad management, they thought the squad that took them up was good enough for SL, (like Toronto before them), and didn't strengthen their roster, that is the reason they were relegated nothing else.

So League is absolutely screwed In France unless the British game bails them out in your opinion? Can I ask what input and influence does the FFR have in making the game more attractive so the locals want to get along to play and support?

And I suppose you don't give a toss about the teams in the UK that spend time and money from the Chairmen down to the fans to make their club(s) better, it doesn't matter what happens to them does it?

Toulouse have the opportunity to bounce straight back this season they only have realistically one team to beat, that is one representative of a "small pit village". So Toulouse being the "big city" team with potentially half a million locals to get into the stadium and countless wealthy sponsors in the background who can finance the team up to SL salary cap limits, are they going to speculate to accumulate, or wait for the British game to bail them out, finance them to entice the local player's of any merit to choose League over Union, and the final trick to lock them into the top division.

Edited December 7, 2022 by Harry Stottle

[Madrileño]

4 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Being SL? 22/24 of the French selection play in the SL.

I am not going to be totally dismissive of the point you make though, exactly half 12/24 of the England squad either presently play in the NRL or have the experience of playing there.

Exactly. 

I only meant the team (France) underachieved which was a disappointment, but basically all the SL based teams underachieved. Remember as well as a big NRL contingent, the rest of the England guys come from TOP Super League sides... there's a big difference between them and the likes of Ireland, who pick more from the lower sides. 

[Madrileño]

3 hours ago, Barley Mow said:

I agree with you here up to your last sentence.

I think it is less indicative of the league that the French players play in, but the number of full time French players there are: They were able to announce a squad of 24 full timers, but how many full time players missed out on the squad? It can't have been more than a handful. They will have had approximately 30 full time players to select from - the result is inevitably that some of those players won't be the stars at their clubs, they will be squad players. The higher ranked nations have hundreds of full time professionals to select from.

It isn't that they play in SL rather than NRL, but the numbers that exist. I would back a SL only England team to still be in the top 5 nations, but they would have a lot more depth to select from than France.

All sounds fair enough.

As I said above, the last sentence was simply pointing out that all the super league based teams under achieved, when compared to the NRL/Q Cup based sides. (England obviously did well, but they are high end Super League with a decent NRL core, and some would say they under achieved too).

I was just disappointed with the French performance as for the first time ever they had no excuse in terms of having a team that could compete physically with the other pro teams. It won't happen again as TO XIII will probably fall away to part time obscurity now due to the barriers to progress they face. 

[Harry Stottle]

37 minutes ago, Madrileño said:

TO XIII will probably fall away to part time obscurity now due to the barriers to progress they face. 

What are those? As I said above probably the only obstacle in their way for a return to SL is Featherstone Rovers will the management take up that challenge.

And why you are here 3 of you answered my post with a laughing emoji, is any of it untrue?

[Eddie]

7 hours ago, Madrileño said:

How will it stop without a better career pathway?

Fifth tier union in France is considerably more professional than Elite 1, yet we have rugby league 'fans' on here who want Toulouse relegated and back to playing in a part time league in England. Just when we started to feel like we were finally getting somewhere - you had people who wanted some run down English mining village promoted instead of Toulouse!

League is absolutely screwed in France unless these so called 'fans' embrace a second professional French team (and probably a 3rd one into their second tier). Otherwise players will always choose union: more money, less travel (below the top level) and a far more professional environment in terms of coaching/performance environment. 

I honestly can’t remember anyone on this forum saying they wanted Toulouse to get relegated. The overwhelming feeling was that people want them to do well. I wanted them to stay up as much as anyone but the fact is they weren’t good enough, ok the rules work against them but regardless they weren’t good enough on the pitch. And if you’re such a snob that you discriminate against ex-mining towns then rugby league probably isn’t the game for you. 

[David Shepherd]

45 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

 

And why you are here 3 of you answered my post with a laughing emoji, is any of it untrue?

Seems to be a standard response when pie in the sky dreamers are confronted with reality. 

[David Shepherd]

3 minutes ago, Eddie said:

I honestly can’t remember anyone on this forum saying they wanted Toulouse to get relegated. The overwhelming feeling was that people want them to do well. I wanted them to stay up as much as anyone but the fact is they weren’t good enough, ok the rules work against them but regardless they weren’t good enough on the pitch. And if you’re such a snob that you discriminate against ex-mining towns then rugby league probably isn’t the game for you. 

I wanted TOXIII to stay up and I'm a fan of the mining village that lost out to them fair and square in the 2021 GF.

It was pretty obvious early on that the loss of Ford and MK on the eve of the season (let's not forget that it was the Covid lunacy of the French government that caused that) was going to seriously hamper their chances.  They also failed to adequately strengthen their squad for a realistic shot at staying up.

TOXIII can go straight back up this year.  They've only got a pit village to beat, they're a huge city with massive resources (we keep being told) it should be a walk in the park.  Although they appear to have done absolutely nothing in terms of building a squad for that task.

Agree 100% with your comment about snobbery.

[Oxford]

2 hours ago, Eddie said:

I honestly can’t remember anyone on this forum saying they wanted Toulouse to get relegated.

First of all I'm not sure how this thread became so dislocated from the OP.

Although the memory playing tricks on us all could easily make this wrong I'm sure there were quite a few posts containing moans about two french sides and questions like how many more?

They were just opinions and concerns and in most cases quite understandable.

 

 

 

[barnyia]

We play Avignon a week on Saturday I'll count the spectators. 

[Madrileño]

4 hours ago, Eddie said:

I honestly can’t remember anyone on this forum saying they wanted Toulouse to get relegated. The overwhelming feeling was that people want them to do well. I wanted them to stay up as much as anyone but the fact is they weren’t good enough, ok the rules work against them 

"This forum" appears to be made up of about 30 middle aged white English guys, the majority of whom have never even played a game of League. Hardly a cross section of the game's wider support!

Social media is littered with comments about the French, Toulouse, why they shouldn't be in Super League.... etc. Right up to today. The overriding feeling among most rugby league supporters that I have read, is that it is not England's job to help France. This is on club forums, Twitter, League Facebook pages and newspaper article comments.  Even on this very thread, you have Harry Stottle saying "invest our money here" so let's not pretend that TotalRL is only composed of people wishing them well. 

If this is not the view of the public (ie: if I am wrong), then I am sure we will see a concerted effort to develop French Rugby league as a legacy of this World Cup. A rising tide lifts all boats after all...

Edited December 7, 2022 by Madrileño

[Madrileño]

4 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

What are those? As I said above probably the only obstacle in their way for a return to SL is Featherstone Rovers will the management take up that challenge.

They have (and had) a tiny window to recruit a SuperLeague squad, with a limited overseas quota. Most Rugby League contracts are sorted out months before, so they are left with a few short weeks to pick up the scraps that nobody else wants..... and somehow convince them to move to France as well. They cannot simply sign French players, as for reasons I alluded to above, most French Rugby league players are not professionals, have little/no experience in the professional game, and are far short of the level needed for Super League. 

Additionally they have 27 overseas trips to fund, but a tiny window to pull in the required sponsorship between gaining promotion and starting in Super League. They are hamstrung by the same paltry salary cap that exists for teams in cheap northern towns, yet have to somehow meet the overseas quota and bring in effectively an entire team from outside. 

I think you know all this. Yet for some reason you are pretending in your post, that they have no obstacles in front of them.

Amusingly, you mention Featherstone.  If we take Featherstone as an example of the contrary, the majority of players who Featherstone sign will not even need to move house.