New Zealand not coming in 2023

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Jughead said:

If Catalans v Toulouse was attended poorly because of a French national holiday, why do some persist with the obsession of France v England on Bastille Day? 

Pick another day then.

[RP London]

2 minutes ago, Jughead said:

If Catalans v Toulouse was attended poorly because of a French national holiday, why do some persist with the obsession of France v England on Bastille Day? 

Because its a different match to Catalans v Tolouse.. It appeals to that sense of national pride, its an occasion (catalans will play Tolouse twice more in that season once more at the venue thank you loop fixtures!)

You spend some time and effort to build it.. it may not pop straight away but over time it becomes the occasion (dont do what the RFL normally do and bin something off after one attempt)

The tour de france is bouncing on bastille day.. its a tradition. 

(also to be fair, if that day doesnt work pick another one, its just an example of what can be done, if there is a better day for the French to come out and support their national team v France then use it ffs! Traflagar day means f all to most English but you can build a story around it, it just so happens to fall on the weekend we used to play "warm up" matches etc... its an added thing to use to market/advertise/hype up the game)

[gingerjon]

7 minutes ago, Jughead said:

If Catalans v Toulouse was attended poorly because of a French national holiday, why do some persist with the obsession of France v England on Bastille Day? 

Bastille Day gets mentioned every time.

I think the one time we had French input on a thread about it, it was pointed out that it would be about the worst day on which to hold it.

There must be others though. It's the playing France in France bit that's key.

[Jughead]

9 minutes ago, Leonard said:

Pick another day then.

Exactly, that’s my point. 

7 minutes ago, RP London said:

Because its a different match to Catalans v Tolouse.. It appeals to that sense of national pride, its an occasion (catalans will play Tolouse twice more in that season once more at the venue thank you loop fixtures!)

You spend some time and effort to build it.. it may not pop straight away but over time it becomes the occasion (dont do what the RFL normally do and bin something off after one attempt)

The tour de france is bouncing on bastille day.. its a tradition. 

(also to be fair, if that day doesnt work pick another one, its just an example of what can be done, if there is a better day for the French to come out and support their national team v France then use it ffs! Traflagar day means f all to most English but you can build a story around it, it just so happens to fall on the weekend we used to play "warm up" matches etc... its an added thing to use to market/advertise/hype up the game)

Play the game on a national holiday AND Tour De France? That’s so very Rugby League, you’re hired. 

[RP London]

9 minutes ago, Jughead said:

Exactly, that’s my point. 

Play the game on a national holiday AND Tour De France? That’s so very Rugby League, you’re hired. 

ffs do you actually read all of a post? as i said in the original post (and reiterated in the one you just quoted) its an idea put together in 2 minutes and it was simplistic in its nature, if it doesnt work pick another day its really not difficult.. 

As a general point national holidays can be good and bad, the point about the TdF was to show it doesnt de facto mean it wont work... The TdF lasts for 3 weeks, it goes around the large areas of france and on that day could be 100s of miles away from where you would play this game so will make f all difference to who turns up to watch the RL.

But the key is to play them in france on a day that can work I really couldnt give a toss what that day is!

Hear a snippet of an idea, dismiss it out of hand without really thinking about it (solutions to problems) I think you'll find thats more RL than anything in my post!

Edited December 1, 2022 by RP London

[Iceberg Slim]

Does anyone have any figures on revenue etc for the four nations over the years? Did it actually grow its footprint as a brand and financially? Had it reached its ceiling? 
 

secondly what was the reasoning for going back to tours? and what was the financial benefit of going back to tours? I can see the reason the nzrl toured England instead of cutting money 3 ways you get a 50/50 split. But I feel they cut the 4 nations concept too short. 
 

there was a reason why they stopped it and I imagine australia had a hand in it. They haven’t toured in over 6 years. Was that a strategic shift to cut costs or to eventually only use the kangaroo brand at world cups and biannually? It’s almost like they gave up on International league at that time. 
 

 

[The Rocket]

38 minutes ago, RP London said:

but are those things worth doing to make a better structured comp that could help nations and bring NRL players over?? 

Yes, with all the Aussie, New Zealand and P.I. players involved in a post-season Test series over here, do the Luke Keary`s, Mitchell Moses`s, Alex Twal`s et. al. want to be sitting at home here on their hands. An attractive Test series round robin in the N.H. may be enough to entice them over to get a part of the international action. 

[dkw]

As much as I would love to have seen a tour next year, I dont think it should come as a huge surprise after a world cup. In my opinion we should plan for a 3 or 4 year international calendar, building up to an Ashes tour in 2025 maybe, possibly multiple teams touring. I understand a touring squad carrying 2 teams is probably difficult to finance.

2023 - England play France, Wales. Knights play in Euros.

2024 - England, France, Wales, Knights play touring Kiwis team(s) 

2025 - England, France, Wales, Knights play touring Aussie team(s)

Having this calendar in place means a concerted advert campaign can be built, including wheelchair and women's teams etc.

I think having an actual set in stone plan would benefit everyone rather than constantly having questions and updates every 2 months on what the hell is going on. Stadiums can be booked ahead of time, players can be visiting in between to promote, create a buzz with the build up.

[Damien]

Just now, dkw said:

As much as I would love to have seen a tour next year, I dont think it should come as a huge surprise after a world cup. In my opinion we should plan for a 3 or 4 year international calendar, building up to an Ashes tour in 2025 maybe, possibly multiple teams touring. I understand a touring squad carrying 2 teams is probably difficult to finance.

2023 - England play France, Wales. Knights play in Euros.

2024 - England, France, Wales, Knights play touring Kiwis team(s) 

2025 - England, France, Wales, Knights play touring Aussie team(s)

Having this calendar in place means a concerted advert campaign can be built, including wheelchair and women's teams etc.

I think having an actual set in stone plan would benefit everyone rather than constantly having questions and updates every 2 months on what the hell is going on. Stadiums can be booked ahead of time, players can be visiting in between to promote, create a buzz with the build up.

I think there may be something slightly bigger happening in 2025.....

[Jughead]

1 minute ago, RP London said:

ffs as i said in the original post its an idea put together in 2 minutes.. if it doesnt work pick another day its really not difficult.. 

As a general point national holidays can be good and bad, the point about the TdF was to show it doesnt de facto mean it wont work... The TdF lasts for 3 weeks, it goes around the large areas of france and on that day could be 100s of miles away from where you would play this game so will make f all difference to who turns up to watch the RL.

But the key is to play them in france on a day that can work I really couldnt give a toss what that day is!

Hear a snippet of an idea, dismiss it out of hand without really thinking about it (solutions to problems) I think you'll find thats more RL than anything in my post!

Comparing a mid-season friendly in a minority sport to the Tour De France is clutching at straws, too. 

We have a mid-season international against France. Hopefully it sticks and doesn’t get written off after a couple of years or dropped because the England coach thinks it’s not worth the time or effort.

I suspect that people want it in France because history suggests it does reasonably well in terms of attendance and it doesn’t here. I think there’s an element of laziness to that opinion, though. If it’s in France, we don’t have to do anything and can just point and celebrate when/if it gets a five figure attendance, rather than wanting England to play an international in England (four home games since the 2017 World Cup) and to build something here, both in terms of location (building on games in non-RL places like London, Newcastle, Sheffield) and competition. Warrington isn’t the venue for it but it’s been chosen for now, hopefully that changes in the future.

I don’t think you need to make an event of things. International sport typically does well in terms of TV viewers, so we should be okay there and people have turned out to watch England games at the World Cup. England games going forward need advertising (it would have been better if England had something to advertise during the WC games) to get bums on seats but having it on Trafalgar Day (what even is that? When is it?) is a bit meaningless and doesn’t really do anything to whip up interest. 

[Tommygilf]

5 hours ago, Iceberg Slim said:

Does anyone have any figures on revenue etc for the four nations over the years? Did it actually grow its footprint as a brand and financially? Had it reached its ceiling? 
 

In the NH at least, Crowds were pretty solid. A friend and I actually did all 3 England games (including the bonfire night double header) and the final in 2016. EDIT (didn't realise I'd not finished the sentence): Only Scotland vs Australia at Hull KR was genuinely disappointing.

5 hours ago, Iceberg Slim said:

secondly what was the reasoning for going back to tours? and what was the financial benefit of going back to tours? I can see the reason the nzrl toured England instead of cutting money 3 ways you get a 50/50 split. But I feel they cut the 4 nations concept too short. 
 

2 fold I think. Firstly there was talk around 2013/4 that Australia's players wanted "fallow years" where the Kangaroos didn't play in the Autumn 1 year out of 4. I think that spooked the RLIF and its RFL based leadership at the time. Hence the 2015 Kiwi tour to the UK. Juxtaposed with that, the RFL leadership in the UK was also embarking on a nostalgia trip in everything frrom the branding of the game (anyone remember the "rugby league of the extraordinary" retro circus banners), the premise of the league and the national team. There was a conscious desire to see the GB Shirt return too from the hierarchy. Lions and Kangaroo tours were now back being discussed, but when Australia unilaterally decided against playing GB as the RFL had hoped in 2019, that tour down under failed miserably as a poor add on to the Oceania cup.

To a lesser extent too, the RFL throughout this past decade has shown itself to be utterly unable to sell a match between England and anyone other than the Aussies and Kiwis outside of a major tournament. I think that plays into the reluctance they have to rely on or try anything.

So the Aussies weren't keen, and the RFL gave them a way out, essentially.

I think it would have been interesting to see a 4 nations without the Aussies. ENG, NZL and 2 others, perhaps permanently France and/or rotating based on Hemisphere of the host? That said it is tinged with the final problem that the NRL has grown more bellicose in recent years, and has actively undermined at least 2 RL internationals events (Denver Test and the 2021 edition of the world cup), in recent years.

Edited December 1, 2022 by Tommygilf

[RP London]

16 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

Yes, with all the Aussie, New Zealand and P.I. players involved in a post-season Test series over here, do the Luke Keary`s, Mitchell Moses`s, Alex Twal`s et. al. want to be sitting at home here on their hands. An attractive Test series round robin in the N.H. may be enough to entice them over to get a part of the international action. 

Totally agree.. I think if they structure it right it might well get them over.

[Tommygilf]

18 minutes ago, dkw said:

I think having an actual set in stone plan would benefit everyone rather than constantly having questions and updates every 2 months on what the hell is going on.

This. People often point to how often England have played France to demonstrate taking the NH game seriously, yet they ignore the context of those games.

How many of those matches were organised more than a year in advance? 6 months even? Whilst we end up playing France a fair bit, it seems almost accidental and low effort.

[Damien]

I do think the cancelled Ashes tour in 2020 was such a huge loss to the international game. It was a throwback to the 90s with games at big stadiums in Tottenham, Elland Road and Bolton. Obviously, we can't turn back time but if that tour had gone ahead with big crowds, then I think discussions now would have been quite different. It would have also built the World Cup quite nicely too.

Edited December 1, 2022 by Damien

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, Damien said:

I do think the cancelled Ashes tour in 2020 was such a huge loss to the international. It was a throwback to the 90s with games at big stadiums in Tottenham, Elland Road and Bolton. Obviously, we can't turn back time but if that tour had gone ahead with big crowds, then I think discussions now would have been quite different. It would have also built the World Cup quite nicely too.

I certainly can see that argument (I won tickets for the game at Spurs actually!), but I still think there's no way the Aussies or Kiwis would be coming here the year after the World Cup though too; so the "who do we play now" problem still remains.

[Oxford]

Looking over what's going to take place I think people's optimism is awesome!

7 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

so the "who do we play now" problem still remains.

And I think that might always be the case until England is the dominant partner in the international arena. And although this won't be popular on here the Aussies will just continue to talk the talk.

[Damien]

1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

I certainly can see that argument (I won tickets for the game at Spurs actually!), but I still think there's no way the Aussies or Kiwis would be coming here the year after the World Cup though too; so the "who do we play now" problem still remains.

Obviously, we can't turn back time but Covid did have a huge effect and we are still playing catch up. If it wasn't for Covid I think it would have been a case of the World Cup being in 2021, England go down under in 2022, NZ come in 2023 then England go down under in 2024 with a French World Cup in 2025. Covid saw the Ashes tour cancelled and the World Cup delayed which then has turned the World Cup cycle into 3 years with both World Cups in Europe. That has made everything far more difficult as the Southern hemisphere nations are coming here for 2 World Cups in 3 years as it is, and I can see their reluctance to do so in 2023 or 2024.

Sad as it is I really don't think it's that appealing for players after playing in games that had 6k rattling about small SL stadiums either. Players that had experienced 3 big Ashes matches in packed big stadiums in 2020 (hopefully) with a real rivalry and even defeat against England would feel much different about touring I feel. I appreciate there are a couple of pieces of optimism in there but countries really need to feel like it is worth coming to these shores.

[Oxford]

countries really need to feel like it is worth coming to these shores.

And clearly they don't!

[Jughead]

The lost Ashes series a year out from the original World Cup would have been good, I feel. It’s a shame we went down the strange nostalgia rabbit hole of the GB tour in 2019 as that as an England tour, the Ashes and then the World Cup would have set up the sport nicely for the future. 

[RP London]

1 hour ago, Jughead said:

Comparing a mid-season friendly in a minority sport to the Tour De France is clutching at straws, too. 

We have a mid-season international against France. Hopefully it sticks and doesn’t get written off after a couple of years or dropped because the England coach thinks it’s not worth the time or effort.

I suspect that people want it in France because history suggests it does reasonably well in terms of attendance and it doesn’t here. I think there’s an element of laziness to that opinion, though. If it’s in France, we don’t have to do anything and can just point and celebrate when/if it gets a five figure attendance, rather than wanting England to play an international in England (four home games since the 2017 World Cup) and to build something here, both in terms of location (building on games in non-RL places like London, Newcastle, Sheffield) and competition. Warrington isn’t the venue for it but it’s been chosen for now, hopefully that changes in the future.

I don’t think you need to make an event of things. International sport typically does well in terms of TV viewers, so we should be okay there and people have turned out to watch England games at the World Cup. England games going forward need advertising (it would have been better if England had something to advertise during the WC games) to get bums on seats but having it on Trafalgar Day (what even is that? When is it?) is a bit meaningless and doesn’t really do anything to whip up interest. 

wow you really are working for the RFL with the do as little as possible and it'll all work out approach.

Trafalgar day is the 21st October the only reason i know this is because its been spoken about whenever they talk about another BH because its in a block of the year we have so few.. silly day to pick but hey ho.. It just so happens to fall the week after the GF thats why I used it as an example. 

Wanting to play in France isnt about laziness its about the fact that if you play it out there it should have more impact on the French market and give the French something to build on too. We need a stronger France to play again and if that can, even in a small way, help to boost the French team and the French development then it is worth it (its close enough compared to SH tours). But its not an either/or, why play only one game, why not play a home and away or 3 test series (which I suggested)

In terms of making the game an event.. of course you do, thats how you increase the game day crowd, its not just about the TV. You want a good crowd, you want it to be the thing to go and see and be something that year on year people dont want to miss out on and that is about the event around the match. To just think the match will work etc is wrong and is why, while people turned up for the WC, we didnt get enough sell outs or frankly big enough crowds, as a sport we are terrible at selling big games to fans to turn up and if we dont change that it isnt going to get better. 

The TdF mention by me was not to compare the two but simply that to say it cannot work on Bastille day (without more information) is misleading when the TdF can do it and I also stipulated (again, you seem to not want to read a full post when someone is explaining their stance, but rather claim something that they are not saying) it has built a tradition of it so why cant RL over time if it is stuck to it rather than playing one year and giving up.. 

All in you have picked a couple of points (especially the day) which are easily overcome. The sport then needs to sell the game and make it an event and there are any number of ways to do that. I simply picked one to use as an example, again, you dont like that example which is fine. There are many other ways but the key is it has to be an event that people clamber over each other (in the end, not the start) to go to, to the point we need to play at bigger stadiums. 

Edited December 1, 2022 by RP London

[Jughead]

4 minutes ago, RP London said:

wow you really are working for the RFL.. 

Trafalgar day is the 21st October the only reason i know this is because its been spoken about whenever they talk about another BH because its in a block of the year we have so few.. silly day to pick but hey ho.. It just so happens to fall the week after the GF thats why I used it as an example. 

Wanting to play in France isnt about laziness its about the fact that if you play it out there it should have more impact on the French market and give the French something to build on too. We need a stronger France to play again and if that can, even in a small way, help to boost the French team and the French development then it is worth it (its close enough compared to SH tours). But its not an either/or, why play only one game, why not play a home and away or 3 test series (which I suggested)

In terms of making the game an event.. of course you do, thats how you increase the game day crowd, its not just about the TV. You want a good crowd, you want it to be the thing to go and see and be something that year on year people dont want to miss out on and that is about the event around the match. To just think the match will work etc is wrong and is why, while people turned up for the WC, we didnt get enough sell outs or frankly big enough crowds, as a sport we are terrible at selling big games to fans to turn up and if we dont change that it isnt going to get better. 

The TdF mention by me was not to compare the two but simply that to say it cannot work on Bastille day (without more information) is misleading when the TdF can do it and I also stipulated (again, you seem to not want to read a full post when someone is explaining their stance, but rather claim something that they are not saying) it has built a tradition of it so why cant RL over time if it is stuck to it rather than playing one year and giving up.. 

All in you have picked a couple of points (especially the day) which are easily overcome. The sport then needs to sell the game and make it an event and there are any number of ways to do that, i just picked one to use as an example, again you dont like that example which is fine, there are many other ways, the key is it has to be an event that people clamber over each other (in the end, not the start) to go to, to the point we need to play at bigger stadiums. 

I’m not the one plucking random “holidays” nobody celebrates and saying we must play rugby league games on these days. 

England need home games, France need home games. It’s a double edged sword. Four home games in four years for England is abysmal. England have a mid-season international, the implementation looks all wrong for 2023 but it’s a positive step from rocking up and playing whoever isn’t from England (and some who are) and isn’t on a cheap Ryanair break to mainland Europe, which was a “bigger test”, allegedly. 

I maintain it’s lazy. “Bastille Day, let’s play them then” is lazy and contradictory to what we heard when Catalans Dragons v Toulouse played on a French holiday and the crowd wasn’t what some predicted. Considering many of those who attend(ed) games in France are the target market, it’s a poorly thought out plan, as is playing on Trafalgar Square Day or whatever made up day that even is. 

With England playing France in 2023 (at least twice, it seems) and an IMG directive that they want to focus on France, this lays the platform for something to build that isn’t associated with random public holidays in the hope people decide to watch Rugby League on these days and can be developed into its own event, providing the England coach doesn’t stamp his feet or people get bored within two years, as history has proven. 

I will knock England and The RFL the loudest on here but actually having a proper bonafide international game in England is much better than what they had in 2022 and can, if given time, finances and a strategy, be grown into something more. 

[Harry Stottle]

14 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

I think that is fair. But even if we had the millions, would we have invested them? I don't think so.

And even despite that, the growth in the Pacific Islands has been coming for some time now, and yet the RFL have persisted with the head in the sand strategy. Worse, we're now being beaten by said pacific island teams.

We're neither strategic, or responsive, and now we pay the price.

Is there actually growth on the Pacific Island's themselves or just the advantage of having so many players living all their lives in Australia/NZ, being brought up, educated and playing the game there and going through the RL systems from childhood. 

How strong are the domestic leagues in Tonga, Samoa, Cook Islands and Fiji? and will they maintain this level as the grandparent rule gets exhausted.

[RP London]

10 minutes ago, Jughead said:

I’m not the one plucking random “holidays” nobody celebrates and saying we must play rugby league games on these days. 

England need home games, France need home games. It’s a double edged sword. Four home games in four years for England is abysmal. England have a mid-season international, the implementation looks all wrong for 2023 but it’s a positive step from rocking up and playing whoever isn’t from England (and some who are) and isn’t on a cheap Ryanair break to mainland Europe, which was a “bigger test”, allegedly. 

I maintain it’s lazy. “Bastille Day, let’s play them then” is lazy and contradictory to what we heard when Catalans Dragons v Toulouse played on a French holiday and the crowd wasn’t what some predicted. Considering many of those who attend(ed) games in France are the target market, it’s a poorly thought out plan, as is playing on Trafalgar Square Day or whatever made up day that even is. 

With England playing France in 2023 (at least twice, it seems) and an IMG directive that they want to focus on France, this lays the platform for something to build that isn’t associated with random public holidays in the hope people decide to watch Rugby League on these days and can be developed into its own event, providing the England coach doesn’t stamp his feet or people get bored within two years, as history has proven. 

I will knock England and The RFL the loudest on here but actually having a proper bonafide international game in England is much better than what they had in 2022 and can, if given time, finances and a strategy, be grown into something more. 

The bit in bold is where you seem to have the biggest problem, and why i keep wondering if you are actually reading the whole of the posts... I have not once said we MUST play on those days.. I have used them as an example of what can be done/used... there are 363 other days in the year to pick!

The RFL have just thrown a double header into Warrington with no thought about who might want to go and how that may affect the crowd.. they could have split the games up, they could have played them somewhere that didnt have all the world cup games (that weren't brilliantly attended).. if you want a show of laziness that is it right there.. the same with the game in Leigh on a Wednesday night a few years ago.. 

Your last paragraph I completely agree with. However. what is the strategy, where and when is the game the next year? what is going to make this game one that we really want to go and see? what is going to get me to cross the country with my son to go and watch it? (something that should be really easy as we are the target, and have travelled for grand finals, challenge cup finals, world cup matches (even when our team is not in them)). If its just the game then I may stay at home and watch it on the tele depending on what else is happening in my busy work and family life. 

I have no faith that this is any better because in the end we have been here before and the fact that you and I have had a discussion about a Euro Champs later that year, and the only reason we really had it is because no one knows what it will look at, screams that we have no strategy to build on any of this. 

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by RP London

[Jonty58]

14 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Oddly though the RFL seem to have been the main driver behind the 4 Nations being dropped. The Wood and Rimmer regimes appeared firmly behind the return of Tours, GB and scrapping the 4 nations as the way forward. Indeed wasn't Wood also head of the RLIF during this time too?

Added onto this the fact that whilst Tonga, Samoa, PNG and Fiji have gotten stronger, Australia and the Kiwis have never appeared more beatable, then it is clear England have regressed too. I almost wouldn't mind the binning off of the rest of NH RL if England were clearly the best team in the world, but they can't even say that was a result of their leadership.

So now we mend the roof whilst we can see the dark storm clouds gathering.

What makes you say that?

The Aussie v NZ Semi final showed that they are both some distance ahead of most of their competition on their day.

[Harry Stottle]

13 hours ago, Davo5 said:

I’ve no idea what attendance the game will attract but with the Southern Hemisphere doing their own thing we either play the likes of France/Wales or we have another blank year internationally,which following a home WC  we can’t allow to happen surely.

In any sport you only improve by competeing against likewise or better still against those more competent than you are, whilst it would be good for France and Wales to play England, on the field what does England get out of such fixtures, Shaun Wane quite rightly recognised that this year and chose to play the All Stars for the preperation of his team instead of playing France.

England should be doing all it can to get into the Southern Hemisphere Nations comps over the next 3 years before the next WC if it means travelling every year so be it, they need to be tried and tested just going through the motions relying on playing other NH countries will not do at all.