New Zealand not coming in 2023

[Big Picture]

3 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

I totally agree, but it seems the RFL hierarchy are surprised by this.

As you said clarity over where the bulk of post season internationals are played is needed. However it seems the RFL are in a position where they aren't on the same page as the SH, particularly over their demand to play England either up here or down there. That is an unquestionably worrying delusion.

Once again, the 4 nations was an ideal vehicle for this, but the RFL leadership of the past decade decided against.

A lot of this would also be much simpler if annual NH test matches against France, Wales, Ireland, Lebanon etc were already locked in before we have to consider the Kangaroos, Kiwis or Pacific Island nations.

One obstacle to having those annual NH Internationals is that other than France and Wales, the other countries need their southern hemisphere players to field any sort of competitive team and Wales needs a miracle worker like John Kear coaching them.

[RP London]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

In any sport you only improve by competeing against likewise or better still against those more competent than you are, whilst it would be good for France and Wales to play England, on the field what does England get out of such fixtures, Shaun Wane quite rightly recognised that this year and chose to play the All Stars for the preperation of his team instead of playing France.

England should be doing all it can to get into the Southern Hemisphere Nations comps over the next 3 years before the next WC if it means travelling every year so be it, they need to be tried and tested just going through the motions relying on playing other NH countries will not do at all.

 

I dont think many would disagree.. however, the key words are should and try (paraphrasing your doing all it can)... Yes its what they should be doing but its the try that is the issue, the southern hemisphere teams are under no obligation to let us in, do we add anything to it? 

Its also an end of season solution, we also need to be doing all we can to get the other teams up to standard (something we should have been doing for the past 10-15 years) so that we are not in this position in the next 20 years. Going to the Southern Hemisphere every year is not a long term sustainable solution. While we can do it in the short term we have to be doing mid season games that help bring the others up.. we have to plan that way in advance to help us "sell" those games to crowds and build them. (use the all stars too if needs be, and if the other countries fancy it.. 4 nations of France, Wales, England and All stars mid season?) Take the thumpings for a few years with the expectations that they improve with time. 

We have to have a long term goal of not needing the SH teams so much and them being an add on. That can be developed mid season with us going down under post season, but if we do nothing for the next 3-4 years then this conversation gets re hashed (as it did in 2017 and 2013) again in 2025

[RP London]

Just now, Big Picture said:

One obstacle to having those annual NH Internationals is that other than France and Wales, the other countries need their southern hemisphere players to field any sort of competitive team and Wales needs a miracle worker like John Kear coaching them.

Then just play Wales and France for the moment. But make sure Ireland, Scotland etc are playing each other too so that they can start to build something, brand it together so they feel part of the same comp and you can add P&R to it (if need be) down the line, or just add to the top tier.. we have to start somewhere and this has to be the line in the sand.

[Davo5]

17 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

In any sport you only improve by competeing against likewise or better still against those more competent than you are, whilst it would be good for France and Wales to play England, on the field what does England get out of such fixtures, Shaun Wane quite rightly recognised that this year and chose to play the All Stars for the preperation of his team instead of playing France.

England should be doing all it can to get into the Southern Hemisphere Nations comps over the next 3 years before the next WC if it means travelling every year so be it, they need to be tried and tested just going through the motions relying on playing other NH countries will not do at all.

 

They’ll get more out of fixtures against France/Wales than they will sat on a beach in the Canaries.

It’s been 16 yrs since we beat Australia,if they share the same attitude as you they might see little point in having us.

Edited December 1, 2022 by Davo5

[The Future is League]

10 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

In any sport you only improve by competeing against likewise or better still against those more competent than you are, whilst it would be good for France and Wales to play England, on the field what does England get out of such fixtures, Shaun Wane quite rightly recognised that this year and chose to play the All Stars for the preperation of his team instead of playing France.

England should be doing all it can to get into the Southern Hemisphere Nations comps over the next 3 years before the next WC if it means travelling every year so be it, they need to be tried and tested just going through the motions relying on playing other NH countries will not do at all.

 

I see value in playing France in France once a year. I see no value in playing France here once a year here..

IF we can't get SH nations to tour here on regular basis perhaps we need to fill that void by playing an Australian indigenous team from NRL clubs or a Maori team from NRL clubs , but obviously the preference would be for a SH nation to tour here. Just saying

[dkw]

2 hours ago, Damien said:

I think there may be something slightly bigger happening in 2025.....

Ha ha, ###### forgot about that...

still, the principal stands.

[Jughead]

33 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

Ahh yes , I can strike off someone using Catalan vs Toulouse playing each other on Thursday both times as why it isn’t viable instead of the stupidity of not playing both games on Weekend for full houses.

Feels like the child who completes their homework five minutes before class then says they didn’t understand. 

Whatever people say now it is the height of irresponsibility to plan for anything other than zero Southern Hemisphere teams. 

Full time Academy in Wales funded by RFL (if they have to take money from other clubs tough), locked in French teams and annual 4 nations between England France and Wales plus whoever post 2025.

 

 

It’s not viable. The evidence suggests that. Bastille Day is a weird obsession on here. 

That magical money tree is getting a bashing again, I see. 

[Jughead]

36 minutes ago, RP London said:

The bit in bold is where you seem to have the biggest problem, and why i keep wondering if you are actually reading the whole of the posts... I have not once said we MUST play on those days.. I have used them as an example of what can be done/used... there are 363 other days in the year to pick!

The RFL have just thrown a double header into Warrington with no thought about who might want to go and how that may affect the crowd.. they could have split the games up, they could have played them somewhere that didnt have all the world cup games (that weren't brilliantly attended).. if you want a show of laziness that is it right there.. the same with the game in Leigh on a Wednesday night a few years ago.. 

Your last paragraph I completely agree with. However. what is the strategy, where and when is the game the next year? what is going to make this game one that we really want to go and see? what is going to get me to cross the country with my son to go and watch it? (something that should be really easy as we are the target, and have travelled for grand finals, challenge cup finals, world cup matches (even when our team is not in them)). If its just the game then I may stay at home and watch it on the tele depending on what else is happening in my busy work and family life. 

I have no faith that this is any better because in the end we have been here before and the fact that you and I have had a discussion about a Euro Champs later that year, and the only reason we really had it is because no one knows what it will look at, screams that we have no strategy to build on any of this. 

 

I’m not. It’s just lazy to suggest we should play on that day, and has become a bit of an obsession by some on here when, as you say, there’s 363 days in the year to play and build something that isn’t oddly linked to a public holiday. 

I don’t know if there is a strategy yet but given the IMG focus areas of internationals and France, you would hope one is in the pipeline or is in place (though that’s questionable given double header/venue or the 2023 test). 

 

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Jughead said:

The lost Ashes series a year out from the original World Cup would have been good, I feel. It’s a shame we went down the strange nostalgia rabbit hole of the GB tour in 2019 as that as an England tour, the Ashes and then the World Cup would have set up the sport nicely for the future. 

There were other GB tours that were going to take place, but they got scuppered along with the rest of the International calendar.

[RP London]

2 minutes ago, Jughead said:

I’m not. It’s just lazy to suggest we should play on that day, and has become a bit of an obsession by some on here when, as you say, there’s 363 days in the year to play and build something that isn’t oddly linked to a public holiday. 

I don’t know if there is a strategy yet but given the IMG focus areas of internationals and France, you would hope one is in the pipeline or is in place (though that’s questionable given double header/venue or the 2023 test). 

 

Its just an example of a day that can be picked.. pick another one if it makes more sense, no one cares. People tend to go for bastille day because on a forum where people are just throwing ideas around it makes more sense to have "a day" than it does to say "play it on June 27th and then the next on August 15th" because then people go "oh why those dates?" because people like to pick the minutest of holes in something rather than going "as a general idea thats good/bad" its more laziness...

We need to play games in France to help the French, we need to play games in England to help us.. so play more than 1 game (the dates are utterly immaterial, do the research in the country and pick some).. plan them in advance (more than 6 months) and stick with it for years to come.. if you can get a 3 test series or bring in Wales somehow (as long as it works) then great.

The key to it all is you have to sell it as an event/a series/a tournament and not just say "ooh look heres a match come and watch". and we have to stick with it no matter what the first few years bring. Tweak bits when you learn if something isnt working or is working really well but dont bin it off.

[Harry Stottle]

35 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

They’ll get more out of fixtures against France/Wales than they will sat on a beach in the Canaries.

It’s been 16 yrs since we beat Australia,if they share the same attitude as you they might see little point in having us.

Lost me, my attitude is that games v France/Wales are of little benefit to us in preperation for the next WC, so why should that prevent us being welcomed down under?

[MatthewWoody]

1 hour ago, RP London said:

I dont think many would disagree.. however, the key words are should and try (paraphrasing your doing all it can)... Yes its what they should be doing but its the try that is the issue, the southern hemisphere teams are under no obligation to let us in, do we add anything to it? 

Its also an end of season solution, we also need to be doing all we can to get the other teams up to standard (something we should have been doing for the past 10-15 years) so that we are not in this position in the next 20 years. Going to the Southern Hemisphere every year is not a long term sustainable solution. While we can do it in the short term we have to be doing mid season games that help bring the others up.. we have to plan that way in advance to help us "sell" those games to crowds and build them. (use the all stars too if needs be, and if the other countries fancy it.. 4 nations of France, Wales, England and All stars mid season?) Take the thumpings for a few years with the expectations that they improve with time. 

We have to have a long term goal of not needing the SH teams so much and them being an add on. That can be developed mid season with us going down under post season, but if we do nothing for the next 3-4 years then this conversation gets re hashed (as it did in 2017 and 2013) again in 2025

Wales and France aren't improving simply by playing (and losing a lot) against England. 

[MatthewWoody]

29 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

Because it is literally the same argument every SH side has for not playing England. Literally, the exact same argument. 

England can beat the SH teams.

Wales and France cannot beat England. 

[Jughead]

47 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

I don’t care about bastille day and haven’t mentioned it.

The evidence suggests that Toulouse and Catalan in SL is viable and if an idiot wasn’t allowed to have Toulouse vs Catalan games both on Thursday they would have sold out. Average attendance for Toulouse in a pandemic year glued to bottom of table higher than 2 clubs and level with Giants with a bigger peak crowd. 

Toulouse vs Catalan on a weekend sells out. France vs England got 1.5million peak audience on TV matching a challenge Cup final. The RFL can fund a full time academy in Wales. That’s three full time national teams for a casual tv market by 2026. 

The only thing that isn’t viable is the pathetic pining on here for SH sides. It’s over and it’s very sad that this has to be pointed out again and again. They aren’t coming Bk so move on

Anyone on here whose solution is we have to play SH sides forfeits the right to be taken seriously in this conversation.

Anyone who says that somebody else “forfeits the right to be taken seriously” is likely preparing for a starring role in a primary school nativity as a donkey. 

The viability of two clubs isn’t solely defined by two attendances, though you’re not as stupid as that posts suggests and know that already. The attendances, however, of two French derbies that we were promised huge crowds by some on here, were poor due to scheduling, specifically around a public holiday and attendances were okay by current standards though not what a few predicted confidently. Playing an international on a public holiday is also a stupid idea for such reasons.

Unless you’re privy to The RFL accounts and some secret IMG plan (Wales was not on the actual IMG plan), it’s a moot point discussing the validity of an Academy anywhere. 

Nobody’s pining for southern hemisphere nations, it’s as odd an opinion as Australia and New Zealand never coming to the northern hemisphere again. 

[Jughead]

4 minutes ago, MatthewWoody said:

England can beat the SH teams.

Wales and France cannot beat England. 

Wales and France wouldn’t beat Castleford let alone England. 

[RP London]

14 minutes ago, MatthewWoody said:

Wales and France aren't improving simply by playing (and losing a lot) against England. 

Of course they aren't and won't... but its part of how you do it (the part we are talking about here).. its not the only thing, its not the magic bullet, no one is claiming that but it will help.. 

[Harry Stottle]

12 minutes ago, Jughead said:

Wales and France wouldn’t beat Castleford let alone England. 

I doubt that you need to go as high as Cas - in last years standings.

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

7 hours ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

As pointed out the 4N was building itself into a strong, quality marketable event.  What I find especially galling is that the emergence over the last 5 years of Tonga, Samoa, PNG and Fiji as genuine international teams and gradual improvement of France could ….. no make that SHOULD …  have led to two divisions of four teams with P and R between them.

Imagine that ……

They’d already started that. When the 4N was in the south the European sides played the Euro Nations Cup to contest the 4th spot for the next cycle’s northern hemisphere comp. In the reverse, Samoa played Fiji to determine the 4th alternating entrant. This could have easily been expanded to a wider Pacific Comp like you say. So much potential wasted.

[Tommygilf]

47 minutes ago, Jughead said:

Wales and France wouldn’t beat Castleford let alone England. 

Most teams in the Fifa World Cup wouldn't beat most Premier League, Bundesliga, Serie A or La Liga teams either, but other than that great point!

[Tommygilf]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Is there actually growth on the Pacific Island's themselves or just the advantage of having so many players living all their lives in Australia/NZ, being brought up, educated and playing the game there and going through the RL systems from childhood. 

How strong are the domestic leagues in Tonga, Samoa, Cook Islands and Fiji? and will they maintain this level as the grandparent rule gets exhausted.

I appreciate the distinction, but the practical outcomes remain the same which makes it a rather moot point imo. 

The grandparent rule, as with any trends and flows, will change throughout time as historical drivers of politics and economics change. At this moment some teams are strong, they might not always be, and others may be stronger (there's some good football comparisons of that which are on the wane now). By virtue of only having 2 fully professional leagues based in 4 countries (5 if you want to include Wales and 7 if the NSW and QLD Cup Fiji and PNG sides), there's always going to be a small core of top talent to draw on initially, and that will reflect the changing societies around us.

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

Almost as if the target market audience doesn´t really give a t*ss about the quality like tragics but are casually watching their nations. Crazy.

Tbf, football is easier to scrape a worse side into a better one, and the talent poolnis far larger. RL is much crueller. Samoa were beaten by over 50 points in a world cup where they reached the final.

But I agree with your general point, quality at a world cup, in any sport, is generally only the focus of the latter more intense rounds. 

[Iceberg Slim]

I’m looking at the nrl 2023 draw and it’s absolutely brutal. It’s excessively long and drawn out and I just can’t see anyone touring England next year unfortunately. 27 rounds they’re starting 2 weeks earlier this year unfortunately I just can’t see any follow up to the World Cup which is ultimately sad. Until the nrl can find a 18th team it looks like it’s 27 rounds a year which is deadly in terms of player welfare. Ideally 22 rounds is ideal for me and would really give a solid amount of time for an international window. 
 

unfortunately I see it as a play in your own backyard year next year 

[Harry Stottle]

4 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

Incredibly dense. The SH get to call the shots and they don´t care about England. So RFL has one choice: Build France and Wales into full time teams to give us annual games for a tv audience. The internationals are about generating money and exposure for the sport. The SH teams aren´t playing England. End. So any suggestion from you or anyone else about playing them is a complete waste of time.

This is about generating a viable tv product with three ft NH nations to generate money for the game on here which lost millions in its last tv deal, it isn´t about indulging the fantasies of tragics who pine for the days of long Australian tours. No matter how much you or Harry wish that to be the case. 

You are still in stage one: Denial. 

If the public of France and Wales were as enthusiastic as you are about their countries being FT Rugby League Nations then they may have a semblance of a chance of making it happen in the next 50years, I am sorry to shock you but the French and Welsh people couldn't care less, in France there is a small pocket in Perpignan of about 8/9000, in Toulouse 5,000 and the rest Elite 1 and 2 is negligible about 5000 collectively, there is probably a very good reason that no PPV or FTA TV companies in France have not got a RL TV deal in that there is not enough interest never mind having 2 French teams with a guaranteed no relegation format.

[Jughead]

28 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Most teams in the Fifa World Cup wouldn't beat most Premier League, Bundesliga, Serie A or La Liga teams either, but other than that great point!

Apples, oranges stuff. Back of the net comparison there. 

 

[Mathius Hellwege]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

In any sport you only improve by competeing against likewise or better still against those more competent than you are, whilst it would be good for France and Wales to play England, on the field what does England get out of such fixtures, Shaun Wane quite rightly recognised that this year and chose to play the All Stars for the preperation of his team instead of playing France.

England should be doing all it can to get into the Southern Hemisphere Nations comps over the next 3 years before the next WC if it means travelling every year so be it, they need to be tried and tested just going through the motions relying on playing other NH countries will not do at all.

 

but the All Stars treat it as a friendly...this is less competition than an engaged French team with soething like the ANZACtesttrophy on the line