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New Zealand not coming in 2023


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1 hour ago, Iceberg Slim said:

I think one of the biggest issues here is junior development from the nrls view and super league perspective. 
 

the nrl are willing to invest in youth pretty much from the age of 12 upwards and it doesn’t matter where it is they’ll find it in the pacific area. 
 

the bulldogs are currently in New Zealand recruiting some of our best talent which irks me but at least they are identified and will be invested into at some stage and will eventually make the nrl. This in turn will make our future kiwis which in my opinion is wrong we should be producing our own but this is the current model and just how far the nrl are willing to go to identify talent as well as how deep the pockets are.

the same thing is happening in Fiji in particular PNG is slowly getting there but the pacific is getting similar attention to New Zealand now in finding juniors to develop through the clubs. 
 

could the same be said about the super league? How far are they willing to go and recruit into other nations? There is rugby talent surrounding them and do they have super league teams recruiting in France? What’s stopping them from developing French juniors through their systems?

what about Scottish Irish and welsh talent are they being scouted young and being put through junior systems? 
 

sorry I don’t watch much super league but all I hear about is Aussies and kiwis signing with English clubs and I wonder if there should be more junior development coming through the systems in the uk instead of buying foreign players. 
 

I hate to say it but most of our nz talent is developed in aussie clubs it’s just how it is but I wonder if more can be done to develop other countries through the super league. 
 

Just  a thought. 

Some SL clubs certainly do recruit from all over and look outside RL. However there are some vast differences though that can't be ignored.

The NRL is the premier Rugby competition in the Southern hemisphere and as a RL fan I would easily argue the World. Pay also rivals any Rugby competition in the world bar maybe French RU. As such it is pretty prominent and dominant in the Southern hemisphere and would be an attractive proposition for any athlete.

Coupled with that is that the PI nations are poor and a professional RL contract is a golden ticket for any Rugby player regardless of code. It's not really a hard sell to offer a Fiji RU 7s player a professional NRL contract. There is also no RL obsessed nation of 9 million like PNG to recruit from either. RL can even snap up promising RU youngsters in NZ and beat off competition from the NZRU. 

In contrast the French, Irish, Welsh and French talent you cite are quite possibly in RU professional systems on more money than a SL club can offer. Others may be at a public school with zero interest in playing RL. Many young RU players from stereotypical RU backgrounds would genuinely be far better off chosing their career path and playing RU on the side. Then on top of all that you have RL as a sport that is way down the pecking order, completely irrelevant to many, and a SL competition that is way behind other domestic competitions. 

That is before you even get to the behemoth that is Football and all the athletes that play that, which isn't really the case in the PI nations and NZ.

That's not to say RL can't do more, they certainly can, but the challenges and barriers are vast.

Edited by Damien
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2 hours ago, Iceberg Slim said:

I think one of the biggest issues here is junior development from the nrls view and super league perspective. 
 

the nrl are willing to invest in youth pretty much from the age of 12 upwards and it doesn’t matter where it is they’ll find it in the pacific area. 
 

the bulldogs are currently in New Zealand recruiting some of our best talent which irks me but at least they are identified and will be invested into at some stage and will eventually make the nrl. This in turn will make our future kiwis which in my opinion is wrong we should be producing our own but this is the current model and just how far the nrl are willing to go to identify talent as well as how deep the pockets are.

the same thing is happening in Fiji in particular PNG is slowly getting there but the pacific is getting similar attention to New Zealand now in finding juniors to develop through the clubs. 
 

could the same be said about the super league? How far are they willing to go and recruit into other nations? There is rugby talent surrounding them and do they have super league teams recruiting in France? What’s stopping them from developing French juniors through their systems?

what about Scottish Irish and welsh talent are they being scouted young and being put through junior systems? 
 

sorry I don’t watch much super league but all I hear about is Aussies and kiwis signing with English clubs and I wonder if there should be more junior development coming through the systems in the uk instead of buying foreign players. 
 

I hate to say it but most of our nz talent is developed in aussie clubs it’s just how it is but I wonder if more can be done to develop other countries through the super league. 
 

Just  a thought. 

I wouldn't mind if the cap was removed for all Tier 2 nations. The SL is one of only two fully professional comps in RL and having more overseas talent would improve the SL and the national teams including England.

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40 minutes ago, Damien said:

Some SL clubs certainly do recruit from all over and look outside RL. However there are some vast differences though that can't be ignored.

The NRL is the premier Rugby competition in the Southern hemisphere and as a RL fan I would easily argue the World. Pay also rivals any Rugby competition in the world bar maybe French RU. As such it is pretty prominent and dominant in the Southern hemisphere and would be an attractive proposition for any athlete.

Coupled with that is that the PI nations are poor and a professional RL contract is a golden ticket for any Rugby player regardless of code. It's not really a hard sell to offer a Fiji RU 7s player a professional NRL contract. There is also no RL obsessed nation of 9 million like PNG to recruit from either. RL can even snap up promising RU youngsters in NZ and beat off competition from the NZRU. 

In contrast the French, Irish, Welsh and French talent you cite are quite possibly in RU professional systems on more money than a SL club can offer. Others may be at a public school with zero interest in playing RL. Many young RU players from stereotypical RU backgrounds would genuinely be far better off chosing their career path and playing RU on the side. Then on top of all that you have RL as a sport that is way down the pecking order, completely irrelevant to many, and a SL competition that is way behind other domestic competitions. 

That is before you even get to the behemoth that is Football and all the athletes that play that, which isn't really the case in the PI nations and NZ.

That's not to say RL can't do more, they certainly can, but the challenges and barriers are vast.

Thanks for that insight Damien 🙏🏼

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11 hours ago, RP London said:

In the bit I've put in bold, there is a bit of me that just wonders if they have been relatively smart with this possibility in mind.. ie they haven't actually announced how Euro A will be structured and therefore once they know which England they will get they may change the structure slightly to make it work for everyone a bit better.. could you have an Euro A 1 and a Euro A 2.. it over complicates things and makes the qualifying aspect a little more complicated but are those things worth doing to make a better structured comp that could help nations and bring NRL players over?? 

Really dont know and maybe giving someone a bit too much credit when actually they just havent been too bothered to get too much organised just yet, but know they need to get an announcement out. 

I've considered the possibility of a similar thing and hopefully that does become the case even if it looks a little strange on the surface. I thought the qualifying aspect may have prevented it but I guess they may be forced into a quick re-structure given the situation now.

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From reading the qualification process it seems like 2024 will be the main tournament for European nations and the play off between MEA winners and Cook Islands.

That leaves England, France and Lebanon free to play each other in 2024. Might even get a few SH nations to come over and play in a tournament 

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18 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

So 5,000 in a covid year when they were bottom of the league which is higher or equal to three teams in England so on your own arguement  Wakefield, Salford and Giants can go then. Also your arguement is backward, there is no tv deal in france because there isn´t enough of a guarantee of games, not "never mind two teams". We did it your northern sport club way way and sky went "we are taking 15 million off you". So to say more of the same is delusional.

1.5 million people watched England play France. This is about French teams facilitating those internationals. The games with a part time wales team drew good figures. The investment of one full time academy in Wales to give us three full time national teams in NH is where the money is.  You don´t seem to have any idea of the actual numbers and crucially, you have zero alternative. So when you provide one  instead of "we should play australia" , I´ll listen. 

There is no alternative, the required level of competition for England/GB to be tested, to improve lies in the Southern Hemisphere we need to be playing regular competition and tests against those nations or risk going backwards.

 

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16 hours ago, NW10LDN said:

Lebanon should be able to travel if the NRL agree an international window. The top tier can be England, Lebanon, France, Ireland.

England will beat all of them but the other three should be competitive.

So what chance a barbarians style game rounding out the tournament with the best of the latter three playing England.

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18 minutes ago, MatthewWoody said:

England should tour, if the SH teams are not willing to come to the UK. 

I think they wouln't struggle to find an opposition there. 

What amazes me in all of this is that we have an assumption that if England got on a plane to SH in oct next year, Aus and NZ would say hey lets play England.  England are not the draw that Tonga / Samoa are to NZ and Aus right now

I agree we need short term to play SH sides for England to get better, but just assuming they would put us in their schedule is wishful thinking

the repurcussions of losing that Semi final are now starting to be felt.

2024 I can see England being in some form of SH tournament (if the RFL can push now for that), but 2023 best we are likely to get is PNG from SH. Might as well just accept that

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2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

But you also don't risk suffering a loss Tommy.

True on individual matches yes, but what other ways do England bring in money?

No games = no matchday income, no exposure, no sponsorship. 

RL, particularly England RL, shouldn't be hand to mouth in its existence.

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2 minutes ago, crashmon said:

What amazes me in all of this is that we have an assumption that if England got on a plane to SH in oct next year, Aus and NZ would say hey lets play England.  England are not the draw that Tonga / Samoa are to NZ and Aus right now

The RFLs assumption of that, indeed their blindness to that even as a possibility, is why we have 1 confirmed senior England game before the next world cup.

We aren't in the driving seat, and we don't hold all the cards either. Our position is weak and over the past decade we've at best done nothing about it, at worst we have actively weakened our own hand.

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13 hours ago, Oxford said:

Given the Aussie and now NZ approach to tests and, in spite of the impact, is there any point to holding a World Cup for this sport?

I for one would definitely swop it for the the 'proper tours' we used to have prior to Summer Rugby ##### it all up, just think of the other nations we could now invite to tour here, but going in the other direction tours against the PI nations would have to take place in their RL spiritual home - Australia.

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17 minutes ago, Damien said:

That attitude just leads to the sort of mangaed decline that we've seen.

Totally agree, but I honestly keep wondering where all this money many are saying we should have spent that we have not spent (simply because it may just have not been available) on improving France and Wales over the years would have come from.

Can you are anyone else point me in the direction of all thd spare and available pots of money we have to invest in other countries RL matters.

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10 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Totally agree, but I honestly keep wondering where all this money many are saying we should have spent that we have not spent (simply because it may just have not been available) on improving France and Wales over the years would have come from.

Can you are anyone else point me in the direction of all thd spare and available pots of money we have to invest in other countries RL matters.

Thats nothing to do with if England play matches or not and generating money, or not, from matches.

I think it's clear that the approach the game, and by that the RFL and its clubs, have taken over the last decade and more hasn't worked. It hasn't led to growth, it hasn't led to more money in the game and the international game, for England anyway, has gone backwards. This was all quite foreseeable and was pointed out on here for years as the path we were going down. Now we can either keep doing the same things and then be amazed when we get the same results or try to do things different.

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21 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

Because it is literally the same argument every SH side has for not playing England. Literally, the exact same argument. 

Then we are really mid stream without a paddle, destined to play against teams that can simply not provide the quality we require to progress, and no hope of playing against those who can provide the opposition that is so obviously needed, if we can't take the horse to the water, then send all the horses over to the NRL to at least get the regular intensity of playing in that company weekly, and who know's if the vast majority of the team lives out there then England may become a more attractive proposition to play.

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On 01/12/2022 at 05:30, Dave T said:

I don't disagree with the principle, however we have brought both Catalans and Toulouse into the UK pyramid and we've regularly played France. 

Careful Dave, I presented a similar argument around the NRL being responsible for the growth in performance of the Pacific nations (as if there was any other organisation responsible anyway), it was met with comments like, “yeah, but the NRL only target Pacific players to improve the NRL, not to improve the Pacific international game”.

I know you don’t share that sentiment, but there will be plenty who agree with what you said above, but if the shoe was on the other foot, would only have disdain for the NRL.

Unfortunately it will take the millions you say are required to grow the game outside the heartland and with every heartbeat, it will only get even more expensive to bring the likes of Wales and France up to the standard of England.

The greatest shame of it all is that there have been opportunities with PSG and Crusaders that had they been persevered with, I expect there would be a very strong France and a Welsh team not too far behind. Instead, both opportunities were squandered by British authorities and the other club bosses.

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1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

I for one would definitely swop it for the the 'proper tours' we used to have prior to Summer Rugby ##### it all up, just think of the other nations we could now invite to tour here, but going in the other direction tours against the PI nations would have to take place in their RL spiritual home - Australia.

But without World Cups, we'd never have any of these other nations to play against. The Tongan and Samoan heritage players would never have had any meaningful games in which they could represent their heritage, so they would have just played for Australia.

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I think the big difference from sh and nh is the development of the professional leagues in each country. The nrl is probably I would say top 25 professional leagues in the world in terms of revenue and it’s growing from what the numbers vlandys has been stating. It has the resources to even target union juniors and elite high school prospects in nz. With an increasing cap the money it’s able to offer moving forward will only grow. If they wanted to they could probably scout French union prospects if they really wanted to. The nrl has the money. They’re even thinking about starting an nrl in America. 
 

kiwis make up close to 25% of the nrl playing pool while they also make up 6% of the super league playing pool  France make up 7% of the super league playing pool 

 

france and wales should be close to 20% each of the playing pool if we want genuine growth and competition 

in 20 years kiwis will make up  35% of the nrl I believe  

 

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On 01/12/2022 at 16:33, Dave T said:

Like I say, I acknowledge that there are some reasonably cheap improvements, but I think ring fencing two teams, being better on scheduling, incentivising French players in squads, playing more tests etc are all good, but I just don't see that it is going to improve France to a material level.

We should of course push to do these things, but in reality the French game needs millions of investment from there to underpin the whole game development. 

I suppose it goes back to what we talked about with IRL funds, maybe France becomes a big investment opportunity. 

I actually do believe that ring fencing a second French team and a Welsh team will make all the difference.

It will take the club game that can offer over 25 competitive games a season to give players in France and Wales the opportunity to fast track their development. Four or five international fixtures every year will achieve sweet FA in growing a competitive European international game.

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9 minutes ago, Damien said:

Thats nothing to do with if England play matches or not and generating money, or not, from matches.

I think it's clear that the approach the game, and by that the RFL and its clubs, have taken over the last decade and more hasn't worked. It hasn't led to growth, it hasn't led to more money in the game and the international game, for England anyway, has gone backwards. This was all quite foreseeable and was pointed out on here for years as the path we were going down. Now we can either keep doing the same things and then be amazed when we get the same results or try to do things different.

What was glaringly forseeable and the one big thing I have been banging the drum about for years and years is the lack of investment in our amatuer game, if you really want to point the finger at why we are not as proficient as we should be at International level it is that we do not produce enough of the right calibre of player's and that is the reason not the standard of opposition France and Wales could supply, and it does reflect in the standard of SL.

Look at the amatuer scene in your own town Damien from what it was 30 years ago, then multiply that across the country, the authorities should have made the sport the 'gold' standard that kids wanted to get involved in but they just let the clubs fend for themselves and was witness to watching clubs packing in. Whilst we have gone backwards in the production line, Australia has advanced out of all recognition in this dept that is why they have produced in this WC several teams of Australian Nationals apart from themselves Tonga, Samoa, Fiji, Lebanon, Cooks, and even some left over to bolster other nations sides.

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13 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

But without World Cups, we'd never have any of these other nations to play against. The Tongan and Samoan heritage players would never have had any meaningful games in which they could represent their heritage, so they would have just played for Australia.

Totally disagree, there are that many Australian Nationals who can represent other countries that these teams would have evolved naturally and played in a type of Oceanic competition Australia and NZ included, there are far far to many good Australians just to represent the 24 or so for a WC squad.

Of your 2 likes not surprised that one of them can see no further than his nose  but it is not like the Yorkshireman not to consider all the angles. 

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29 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

Careful Dave, I presented a similar argument around the NRL being responsible for the growth in performance of the Pacific nations (as if there was any other organisation responsible anyway), it was met with comments like, “yeah, but the NRL only target Pacific players to improve the NRL, not to improve the Pacific international game”.

I know you don’t share that sentiment, but there will be plenty who agree with what you said above, but if the shoe was on the other foot, would only have disdain for the NRL.

Unfortunately it will take the millions you say are required to grow the game outside the heartland and with every heartbeat, it will only get even more expensive to bring the likes of Wales and France up to the standard of England.

The greatest shame of it all is that there have been opportunities with PSG and Crusaders that had they been persevered with, I expect there would be a very strong France and a Welsh team not too far behind. Instead, both opportunities were squandered by British authorities and the other club bosses.

What a disingenuous post. The situation couldn't be more different than France. Tonga and Samoa have grown solely courtesy of migration to Australia and because of kids growing up in Australia and playing RL. If Ireland or Scotland RL had a great RL team due to English born heritage players people wouldn't be putting it down to the work of the RFL. I'm not sure why you want special treatment for the NRL.

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