New Zealand not coming in 2023

[Sports Prophet]

On 01/12/2022 at 16:59, RP London said:

I mean how hard is it really to organise a game v France in the south of France on Bastille day... surely its not that tough and surely we could get a nice crowd in for it, people would holiday to watch it and (as we wouldnt have the NRL stars) it wouldnt necessarily be a walkover... do that for 5-10 years..

plus a match in England on Trafalgar day weekend (the week after the GF) find another "fun day" to put one on mid season and you have an interesting 3 test series across the season that you can build up to in nice stadiums with a "story" behind it on days with a bit of zip... 

Then you can head off on tour, or get a touring team in after this because we always had a warm up match pre those sort of things anyway (and as we have a series afterwards the post GF match you dont have to play the full team and no one would bat an eyelid.. so its not a walk over).

None of this is that difficult.. its something that could have been built.. (i know its very simplistic and there is more to this sort of stuff but seriously its a plan put together in 2 minutes at work and its still better than we have seen from anyone at the RFL since the 4 nations went pop!)

I think there is a lot to be said for embracing the national days. Not that St George’s and St David’s Day are either celebrated with the same national fervour as Bastille Day, but perhaps that is a great angle. Turn those dates into something unique to RL in England and Wales that they become big events and dates that RL owns, much in the same way Essendon and Collingwood draw 85-90k a year (a concept the two clubs developed themselves) and Roosters and St George draw 35-40k a year on Anzac Day.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

6 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Totally disagree, there are that many Australian Nationals who can represent other countries that these teams would have evolved naturally and played in a type of Oceanic competition Australia and NZ included, there are far far to many good Australians just to represent the 24 or so for a WC squad.

Possibly, but it was the prospect of a World Cup that prompted the likes of Taumalolo and Luai to opt for Tonga and Samoa.

8 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Of your 2 likes not surprised that one of them can see no further than his nose  but it is not like the Yorkshireman not to consider all the angles. 

That's not really called for - I'd expect better from you than that to be honest.

[Sports Prophet]

3 minutes ago, Damien said:

What a disingenuous post. The situation couldn't be more different than France. Tonga and Samoa have grown solely courtesy of migration to Australia and because of kids growing up in Australia and playing RL. If Ireland or Scotland RL had a great RL team due to English born heritage players people wouldn't be putting it down to the work of the RFL. I'm not sure why you want special treatment for the NRL.

Migration is a very influential factor yes, but that is only an opportunity. The NRL is responsible for the delivery of an attractive product for those communities to participate, enjoy and succeed in.

If it was as simple as migration, why hasn’t migration produced the same dramatic improvement for Fiji, Samoa and Tonga in RU? 

It cannot be denied, a weekly opportunity to make a very worthy living playing NRL is responsible for the growth of the Pacific nations. 

[Harry Stottle]

3 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

I think there is a lot to be said for embracing the national days. Not that St George’s and St David’s Day are either celebrated with the same national fervour as Bastille Day, but perhaps that is a great angle. Turn those dates into something unique to RL in England and Wales that they become big events and dates that RL owns, much in the same way Essendon and Collingwood draw 85-90k a year (a concept the two clubs developed themselves) and Roosters and St George draw 35-40k a year on Anzac Day.

In a poll not many years ago it was found that over 90% of the English public did not even know the date of St George's day.

[Damien]

13 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

What was glaringly forseeable and the one big thing I have been banging the drum about for years and years is the lack of investment in our amatuer game, if you really want to point the finger at why we are not as proficient as we should be at International level it is that we do not produce enough of the right calibre of player's and that is the reason not the standard of opposition France and Wales could supply, and it does reflect in the standard of SL.

Look at the amatuer scene in your own town Damien from what it was 30 years ago, then multiply that across the country, the authorities should have made the sport the 'gold' standard that kids wanted to get involved in but they just let the clubs fend for themselves and was witness to watching clubs packing in. Whilst we have gone backwards in the production line, Australia has advanced out of all recognition in this dept that is why they have produced in this WC several teams of Australian Nationals apart from themselves Tonga, Samoa, Fiji, Lebanon, Cooks, and even some left over to bolster other nations sides.

It's a whole game issue without doubt Harry. That starts from amateur, to the professional ranks then to the international scene. I think we have failed on all fronts for a long time and each has a knock-on effect to the other.

I do think we can't underestimate how the attractiveness of professional sport attracts youngsters to the game in the first place and youngsters wanting to copy what they see on TV. That is why Football is increasingly taking over the hearts and minds of youngsters these days, and that is before you get to the drop off of kids playing sport generally. That is also why we see an increasing amount of youngsters, even in RL heartlands, dabbling in both codes.SL has to be as attractive as possible, as does the international game to attract the next generation of youngsters.

Obviously, we also need much more development work going on locally too and I think schools Rugby League has been badly neglected in particular.  Anything else is relying on a diminishing pool of people dragging their kids along to the local amateur club because they used to play. That won't work these days to the extent needed.

[Sports Prophet]

2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

In a poll not many years ago it was found that over 90% of the English public did not even know the date of St George's day.

That surprises me little. Australia Day wasn’t much to write home about either until it was turned into a public holiday by the government in the early 80s.

[Dave T]

38 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

Careful Dave, I presented a similar argument around the NRL being responsible for the growth in performance of the Pacific nations (as if there was any other organisation responsible anyway), it was met with comments like, “yeah, but the NRL only target Pacific players to improve the NRL, not to improve the Pacific international game”.

I know you don’t share that sentiment, but there will be plenty who agree with what you said above, but if the shoe was on the other foot, would only have disdain for the NRL.

Unfortunately it will take the millions you say are required to grow the game outside the heartland and with every heartbeat, it will only get even more expensive to bring the likes of Wales and France up to the standard of England.

The greatest shame of it all is that there have been opportunities with PSG and Crusaders that had they been persevered with, I expect there would be a very strong France and a Welsh team not too far behind. Instead, both opportunities were squandered by British authorities and the other club bosses.

I think there are a lot of contradictory arguments put across. When people talk about growing the game in another territory, they often use the UK club pyramid as a tool, but when challenges come about over-use of overseas players, the argument is that it isn't the club's job. 

Now I have sympathy for both sides ofnteb argument, but as usual I like to look at root cause of the problem here to understand what would need to be addressed to improve it. IMHO it all comes back o governance and strategy again. The French involvement in the UK pyramid should be through a partnership between teh governing bodies.

The Pro14 comp is an example of the kind of thing we should be looking at. Decisions that affect Catalans and Toulouse and therefore the French game, including the international team, are being made by UK governing bodies. Even now, IMG, RFL, and SLE will impose new restrictions on Catalans in terms of players origin - imho that should be a matter for the French governing body (as long as comp rules are adhered to). The reason we have quotas is to protect local development and benefit the international team. Otherwise we could just fly in a load of Queens land Cup players on modest salaries. 

But it is the UK governing body that is making quota decisions to try and protect the French national team. That is all wrong. 

The French GB should be a partner in SL, a stakeholder in the French clubs and be in charge of their strategy. 

On the wider piece, I atrongly believe that worldwide development can't (and shouldn't) be delivered by the NRL or RFL. We should be supportive partners and provide that support through international governing bodies. I do think the RFL are more in that camp at the moment, and has been a driving force in this approach, but naturally, as the richest partner, the NRL are less keen on this and flex their muscles. 

Things are not going to improve any more than on a superficial level until the IRL is supported to become a strong international governing body. 

The game is full of contradictions. 

[Damien]

1 minute ago, Sports Prophet said:

Migration is a very influential factor yes, but that is only an opportunity. The NRL is responsible for the delivery of an attractive product for those communities to participate, enjoy and succeed in.

If it was as simple as migration, why hasn’t migration produced the same dramatic improvement for Fiji, Samoa and Tonga in RU? 

It cannot be denied, a weekly opportunity to make a very worthy living playing NRL is responsible for the growth of the Pacific nations. 

Because the children of most of these migrants to Australia play RL and go to schools that play RL. I'd hazard a far smaller proportion go to GPS schools.

RU also has completely different, and stricter, eligibility rules so players can't switch between tier 1 and tier 2.

Additionally in RL these countries are starting from a smaller, and almost non-existent base. A team of quality full time NRL players immediately propels them into the top 5 in RL. RL has essentially 2 full time professional leagues propping up 16 RLWC nations. In RU there's probably a good 10 full time countries, most with far deeper full time player pools than any PI nation. Then there are probably a good few with far more resources than any PI nation beneath that.

Its apples and pears stuff.

[Dave T]

30 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

I actually do believe that ring fencing a second French team and a Welsh team will make all the difference.

It will take the club game that can offer over 25 competitive games a season to give players in France and Wales the opportunity to fast track their development. Four or five international fixtures every year will achieve sweet FA in growing a competitive European international game.

It will make a difference, but they will still be up against a nation (England) that has 10 or 12 of these clubs and the benefits this provides. 

That's not to say we shouldn't do it, I think we just need to be realistic about the gains we are gonna achieve here. 

[Harry Stottle]

4 minutes ago, Damien said:

It's a whole game issue without doubt Harry. That starts from amateur, to the professional ranks then to the international scene. I think we have failed on all fronts for a long time and each has a knock-on effect to the other.

I do think we can't underestimate how the attractiveness of professional sport attracts youngsters to the game in the first place and youngsters wanting to copy what they see on TV. That is why Football is increasingly taking over the hearts and minds of youngsters these days, and that is before you get to the drop off of kids playing sport generally. That is also why we see an increasing amount of youngsters, even in RL heartlands, dabbling in both codes.SL has to be as attractive as possible, as does the international game to attract the next generation of youngsters.

Obviously, we also need much more development work going on locally too and I think schools Rugby League has been badly neglected in particular.  Anything else is relying on a diminishing pool of people dragging their kids along to the local amateur club because they used to play. That won't work these days to the extent needed.

I only posted a couple of weeks back re Schools and how it was in my day, bot just playing against the schools in your own town, but also other towns comps, County cups, etc.

 But all if this was done by the teachers themselves, they were prepared to give up their time to do it as it was useually deemed an out of school activity, this is were i believe it fell down with teachers not willing to participate, but anyway apart from that with all the bad publicity that collision sports such as both forms of rugby are concerned I doubt very much that it will be part of any curriculum again.

Question to everyone, is Union still played in and against other schools?

[JM2010]

46 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

What was glaringly forseeable and the one big thing I have been banging the drum about for years and years is the lack of investment in our amatuer game, if you really want to point the finger at why we are not as proficient as we should be at International level it is that we do not produce enough of the right calibre of player's and that is the reason not the standard of opposition France and Wales could supply, and it does reflect in the standard of SL.

Look at the amatuer scene in your own town Damien from what it was 30 years ago, then multiply that across the country, the authorities should have made the sport the 'gold' standard that kids wanted to get involved in but they just let the clubs fend for themselves and was witness to watching clubs packing in. Whilst we have gone backwards in the production line, Australia has advanced out of all recognition in this dept that is why they have produced in this WC several teams of Australian Nationals apart from themselves Tonga, Samoa, Fiji, Lebanon, Cooks, and even some left over to bolster other nations sides.et

This is spot on. It doesn't matter who England play or how many times. We only get better by expanding the player pool. This would produce more RL players of a better standard and might even unearth lots more Oledski's and Dom Young's who could then play for their heritage country.

The North of Englands population is massive and extremely diverse. We've just got to get more kids playing 

[Sports Prophet]

14 minutes ago, Dave T said:

It will make a difference, but they will still be up against a nation (England) that has 10 or 12 of these clubs and the benefits this provides. 

That's not to say we shouldn't do it, I think we just need to be realistic about the gains we are gonna achieve here. 

That is a hurdle Dave, but population does not necessarily account for success. Sooner or later, those Welsh and French players will stream regularly into the other SL clubs.

In my opinion, it only takes a core of 5-6 very good players and then another 7-8 good players to make a competitive international outfit that can win on the day. I think NZ prove that.

[Davo5]

35 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Totally disagree, there are that many Australian Nationals who can represent other countries that these teams would have evolved naturally and played in a type of Oceanic competition Australia and NZ included, there are far far to many good Australians just to represent the 24 or so for a WC squad.

Of your 2 likes not surprised that one of them can see no further than his nose  but it is not like the Yorkshireman not to consider all the angles. 

Oh insults from the man who sees winter rugby & a “proper” tour as the salvation for international rugby league

[Big Picture]

2 hours ago, MatthewWoody said:

England should tour, if the SH teams are not willing to come to the UK. 

I think they wouln't struggle to find an opposition there. 

No, but they'll struggle to find financially viable ways to tour because tours which don't go to Australia invariably lose money.  And given that the Aussies weren't interested last time they might not make any money touring to Australia now.

2 hours ago, crashmon said:

What amazes me in all of this is that we have an assumption that if England got on a plane to SH in oct next year, Aus and NZ would say hey lets play England.  England are not the draw that Tonga / Samoa are to NZ and Aus right now

I agree we need short term to play SH sides for England to get better, but just assuming they would put us in their schedule is wishful thinking

the repurcussions of losing that Semi final are now starting to be felt.

2024 I can see England being in some form of SH tournament (if the RFL can push now for that), but 2023 best we are likely to get is PNG from SH. Might as well just accept that

Precisely.  That's why I said just above that a tour to Australia might not make any money now.

[Tommygilf]

24 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I only posted a couple of weeks back re Schools and how it was in my day, bot just playing against the schools in your own town, but also other towns comps, County cups, etc.

 But all if this was done by the teachers themselves, they were prepared to give up their time to do it as it was useually deemed an out of school activity, this is were i believe it fell down with teachers not willing to participate, but anyway apart from that with all the bad publicity that collision sports such as both forms of rugby are concerned I doubt very much that it will be part of any curriculum again.

Question to everyone, is Union still played in and against other schools?

Yes, I played RU at senior school for 7 years against schools all over England, at Twickenham (twice) and in Asia, Oceania and North America.

Private schools have infrastructure to do this. State schools vary rarely come close to having anything near, in any sport.

[Big Picture]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

What was glaringly forseeable and the one big thing I have been banging the drum about for years and years is the lack of investment in our amatuer game, if you really want to point the finger at why we are not as proficient as we should be at International level it is that we do not produce enough of the right calibre of player's and that is the reason not the standard of opposition France and Wales could supply, and it does reflect in the standard of SL.

Look at the amatuer scene in your own town Damien from what it was 30 years ago, then multiply that across the country, the authorities should have made the sport the 'gold' standard that kids wanted to get involved in but they just let the clubs fend for themselves and was witness to watching clubs packing in. Whilst we have gone backwards in the production line, Australia has advanced out of all recognition in this dept that is why they have produced in this WC several teams of Australian Nationals apart from themselves Tonga, Samoa, Fiji, Lebanon, Cooks, and even some left over to bolster other nations sides.

How on Earth do you expect the kids to consider RL the "gold standard" sport they want to get involved in when it's stuck in smallish, economically disadvantaged towns along the M62 with a mere handful of teams further afield?????  What planet do you live on?

Edited December 2, 2022 by Big Picture

[Davo5]

19 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I only posted a couple of weeks back re Schools and how it was in my day, bot just playing against the schools in your own town, but also other towns comps, County cups, etc.

 But all if this was done by the teachers themselves, they were prepared to give up their time to do it as it was useually deemed an out of school activity, this is were i believe it fell down with teachers not willing to participate, but anyway apart from that with all the bad publicity that collision sports such as both forms of rugby are concerned I doubt very much that it will be part of any curriculum again.

Question to everyone, is Union still played in and against other schools?

You do realise there is a pretty successful “national” schools competition running don’t you.

[Oxford]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

I for one would definitely swop it for the the 'proper tours' we used to have prior to Summer Rugby ##### it all up, just think of the other nations we could now invite to tour here, but going in the other direction tours against the PI nations would have to take place in their RL spiritual home - Australia.

Well Harry I miss the tours too, I could even go 1986 invincibles one right at this moment.

But there's no guarantee they'd turn up for those either.

I can see how Australia became insular but it really only affects RL.

The blinkered approach to the game is as much the problem as breaking out of the limits it has, I've no doubt that if they have a mind to it they'll turn up in the U S for a game or two and then go back behind the Green & Gold Curtain (or should that be Maroon & Blue?)for another decade or so.

 

[RP London]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

In a poll not many years ago it was found that over 90% of the English public did not even know the date of St George's day.

Not saying we should play on St Georges day but if you were to pick it it doesn't really matter if people know now you do the adverts/marketing around it so that people do realise that is what you are doing.. 

[gingerjon]

29 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

You do realise there is a pretty successful “national” schools competition running don’t you.

International.

Welsh schools participate.

[Damien]

31 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

International.

Welsh schools participate.

And have won.

[gingerjon]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

And have won.

Seems unlikely.

There's only 1,000 people interested in rugby league in Wales.

(Was that this thread?)

[RP London]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

And have won.

so the obvious question is where are those players now (I'll assume playing Union) and what may have kept them in the sport?

[RP London]

2 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Seems unlikely.

There's only 1,000 people interested in rugby league in Wales.

(Was that this thread?)

could be any number of threads.. "theres only 1,000 interested in xyz" seems to be a common number. Its as if, and I know this is hard to believe, its completely made up.

Edited December 2, 2022 by RP London

[Damien]

22 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Seems unlikely.

There's only 1,000 people interested in rugby league in Wales.

(Was that this thread?)

It's much worse than that I'm afraid, it's actually only 1000 people interested in RL in the whole of the UK outside England.

It was the England 21 & France 25 article thread but they do all seem to merge into one.