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What will IMG tell the clubs at tomorrow's RL Council meeting.


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6 minutes ago, steve oates said:

I thought we had that with Ian Lenegan as chairman and the other Superleague club owners round the table?

Not sure a bunch of "appointees" has any place telling the SL club's investors what to do with their £Millions?

Given those investors either want the best for their clubs or want the others to be told what to do, it is precisely the place for those "appointees" to step in.

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21 minutes ago, steve oates said:

Not sure a bunch of "appointees" has any place telling the SL club's investors what to do with their £Millions?

It's less about telling clubs "what to do", and more about setting standards and strategies for how any central stakeholder wants to run things. 

The RFL (or entity of your choosing) can't tell club owners how to run their clubs, but what it can do is impliment a set of standards and expectations for how it wants to run the competition in the future. This is what grading is a step towards. If for example a club doesn't want to run a women's team, that's their perogative, but if the RFL wants to have women's teams at all 12 SL clubs, then those clubs that don't run one have a decision to make - meet the standard, or potentially accept a place elsewhere in the pyramid.

You can apply the same principle to financial operations, commercial operations, community engagement activity, etc. Those are the sorts of decisions that a strong governing body or competition administrator should be enforcing. It's not telling people how to "run" their investment, but it is telling them that if they don't meet these standards, the value of their investment can go down as well as up. 

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4 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

It's less about telling clubs "what to do", and more about setting standards and strategies for how any central stakeholder wants to run things. 

The RFL (or entity of your choosing) can't tell club owners how to run their clubs, but what it can do is implement a set of standards and expectations for how it wants to run the competition in the future. 

Come now Gentlemen

Do we not recall when the Super League clubs cut Nigel Wood adrift when they didn't like his strategy??

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6 hours ago, idrewthehaggis said:

RL seems to be on the slow foot. That other code and soccer seem to be trying to at least thinking about addressing their own significant and not particularly enviable failings. 

I think we need an independent commission and more fans involvement. More so someone at IMG needs to answer it's mail!

The other code seem to operate at supersonic pace;in contrast to rugby league.

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13 minutes ago, Angelic Cynic said:

The other code seem to operate at supersonic pace;in contrast to rugby league.

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Because they are good at PR. It's two tiers of 10 with the same clubs. Sounds awfully similar to a plan proposed by the RFL. I'm shocked. IMG is actually better for league becuase they haven't taken any stake in the sport unlike union and CVC.

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32 minutes ago, Angelic Cynic said:

The other code seem to operate at supersonic pace;in contrast to rugby league.

Shared from BBC Sport
Premiership Rugby to 'relaunch' for 2024-25 after demise of Wasps & Worcester - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63946473

They can afford to make mistakes generally speaking. Everything we do has to be a hit.

I was born to run a club like this. Number 1, I do not spook easily, and those who think I do, are wasting their time, with their surprise attacks.

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3 hours ago, DI Keith Fowler said:

They can afford to make mistakes generally speaking. Everything we do has to be a hit.

Whatever the issues are that we have they're our issues and comparison on the whole has, more or less,never been helpful, productive or positive when it's brought up. Funny that!

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16 hours ago, whatmichaelsays said:

It's less about telling clubs "what to do", and more about setting standards and strategies for how any central stakeholder wants to run things. 

The RFL (or entity of your choosing) can't tell club owners how to run their clubs, but what it can do is impliment a set of standards and expectations for how it wants to run the competition in the future. This is what grading is a step towards. If for example a club doesn't want to run a women's team, that's their perogative, but if the RFL wants to have women's teams at all 12 SL clubs, then those clubs that don't run one have a decision to make - meet the standard, or potentially accept a place elsewhere in the pyramid.

You can apply the same principle to financial operations, commercial operations, community engagement activity, etc. Those are the sorts of decisions that a strong governing body or competition administrator should be enforcing. It's not telling people how to "run" their investment, but it is telling them that if they don't meet these standards, the value of their investment can go down as well as up. 

So would I be correct in saying in your opinion there are going to be a good number of other inclusions in the final presented list of 'Criteria' well above the original 'Framing of the Future' document, if so what would you expect them to be?

16 hours ago, steve oates said:

Come now Gentlemen

Do we not recall when the Super League clubs cut Nigel Wood adrift when they didn't like his strategy??

This is the crux of the matter, the 37/42 vote was on the 'principle' of IMG's presentation, it will be interesting once the full disclosure of intent is presented with all the 'i's dotted and 't's crossed if it still carries the same weight of  acceptance not only across all the divisions and organisations but also the incumbent's of SL.

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18 hours ago, The Ghost of 99 said:

How would such a madcap proposal work though?

The idea that IMG or SL should "own the clubs" is not grounded in reality. How do you get from A to B? Was he proposing that the league buy the existing clubs? Some are worth tens of millions of pounds, their owners aren't just going to give them away. Buy just their brands? Why would they sell? Who would fund such a huge investment? The big three clubs all own stadia which are tied into the existence of their clubs, indeed the largest club has tens of million pounds of bank debt effectively secured on, amongst other things, it owning and operating a Rugby League team.

MLS was starting from scratch: new league, new clubs and backed by huge investment. British Rugby League, its clubs and stadia already exist, as do the owners. You can't unmake that omelette. And it exists in a world far removed from MLS.

For proposals to be taken seriously, and be worthy of response, they need to be grounded in reality, both in terms of understanding the starting point, the potential funds available and desired outcomes. This was none of those and got the response it deserved.

Now empowering a central body with much more authority to tell those privately-owned clubs what to do, now we are talking.

If you think it's a 'madcap' proposal then it wouldn't work.

You are doing what many people on this forum do, which is to denounce something without understanding it.

Your main error is assuming that the companies that run the clubs are bought lock, stock and barrel by the entity that is created to run the competition.

That isn't true of Major League Soccer and it wouldn't be true if Rugby League were to adopt that model.

The MLS model is too complex to fully set out here, but in essence the clubs retain the right to generate income independently of the central organisation and they own their assets independently of it.

If you want to know more about how MLS works, you can read it here.

The essential point about MLS is that the structure reflects the economic reality, which is that the competition is the major economic entity, of which the clubs are part.

That model has been stunningly successful since 1996, while our model hasn't been.

IMG may believe they can wave a magic wand and retain the existing model.

If you think that is "grounded in reality", then I'm afraid you think that pigs might fly.

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British Rugby League has a set of specific problems and strengths that require a bespoke strategy that works with them. You could say that some of the issues are similar to soccer in the USA in the early 1990s but such comparisons would be very superficial and show a huge lack of understanding of that sport in that country.

Proposing that we blindly import a model designed for a completely different sport in a completely different context is the definition of madcap in a Rugby League sense.

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On 09/12/2022 at 07:52, Harry Stottle said:

You seem to be forgetting he is a Leigh Fan, with supposedly close connections to the club, there is nothing in that list he discloses that would worry any Leigh official/director/owner, so a little leak is not out of the question.

I mean, I know he may get excited by the list he produced but I think that still counts as over sharing Harry... :kolobok_ph34r:

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2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

So would I be correct in saying in your opinion there are going to be a good number of other inclusions in the final presented list of 'Criteria' well above the original 'Framing of the Future' document, if so what would you expect them to be?

To be honest, I've no idea and I've not given it that much thought. I've said from the outset that IMG can only succeed as much as the sport's stakeholders support and enable them to effect the change they they see fit, even if doing so may not be the most confortable decision. 

But if IMG have been brought in to create a commercial strategy for the sport, I would fully expect that they will be setting a standard that all stakeholders - the clubs included - need to strive for, whether those are quite visible standards (such as academies, womens and/or PDRL teams for example), or less visible ones. 

I'd also expect those standards to have a degree of fluidity to them. Some will be short-term goals tham may adapt annually based on how the strategy is performing, and others will be more medium and long-term. 

 

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28 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

To be honest, I've no idea and I've not given it that much thought. I've said from the outset that IMG can only succeed as much as the sport's stakeholders support and enable them to effect the change they they see fit, even if doing so may not be the most confortable decision. 

But if IMG have been brought in to create a commercial strategy for the sport, I would fully expect that they will be setting a standard that all stakeholders - the clubs included - need to strive for, whether those are quite visible standards (such as academies, womens and/or PDRL teams for example), or less visible ones. 

I'd also expect those standards to have a degree of fluidity to them. Some will be short-term goals tham may adapt annually based on how the strategy is performing, and others will be more medium and long-term. 

 

In the interview with the IMG bloke a few months back he said they'd identified a lot of low hanging fruit they think they could move on straight away. He didn't go into detail as to what they were but I imagine behind the scenes there's a lot happening whereas from the fans seat we're only talking about/seeing the medium-long term categorisation and structure stuff. 

Edited by DI Keith Fowler
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I was born to run a club like this. Number 1, I do not spook easily, and those who think I do, are wasting their time, with their surprise attacks.

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17 minutes ago, DI Keith Fowler said:

In the interview with the IMG bloke a few months back he said they'd identified a lot of low hanging fruit they think they could move on straight away. He didn't go into detail as to what they were but I imagine behind the scenes there's a lot happening whereas from the fans seat we're only talking about/seeing the medium-long term categorisation and structure stuff. 

I'd agree with that. I really don't think that the structure is the problem here at all - at least as far as the commercial prosperity of the sport is concerned. 

There are however lots of areas where RL has either been very late to the party, or where the resources just haven't been invested (digital and content being a prime examples). Those happen to be two areas where IMG and their agencies do have experience. 

That's where, for instance, IMG may well set new, higher standards around clubs making players and staff available for media duties and giving greater access (this a not-new complaint from people at Sky), they may well require all players and staff to be media trained to certain standards, and they may have certain KPIs on digital reach. All fairly easy, achievable things. 

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6 hours ago, The Ghost of 99 said:

British Rugby League has a set of specific problems and strengths that require a bespoke strategy that works with them.

Correct!

6 hours ago, The Ghost of 99 said:

You could say that some of the issues are similar to soccer in the USA in the early 1990s but such comparisons would be very superficial and show a huge lack of understanding of that sport in that country.

I haven't made any comparisons with soccer in the USA, but with the MSL business model.

6 hours ago, The Ghost of 99 said:

Proposing that we blindly import a model designed for a completely different sport in a completely different context is the definition of madcap in a Rugby League sense.

If you think I'm suggesting that we "blindly import" a model from a different sport, then I'm afraid you are very wide of the mark.

The MSL model clearly works far more effectively than the model (or models) we have used in the last 26 years and therefore our object should be to extract from it what would work in a different context and adapt it accordingly.

My prediction is that before 12 years are up, at the behest of IMG, we will have a model that looks remarkably like the one I'm proposing.

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Often seems to me like supporting your wife's wish to have plastic surgery. You sort of know that the changes however beneficial for her will just mean you miss the old model more every day.

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9 minutes ago, Oxford said:

Often seems to me like supporting your wife's wish to have plastic surgery. You sort of know that the changes however beneficial for her will just mean you miss the old model more every day.

Glamming up your lover and parading her out is only going to lead to one thing. Unwanted interest!

In rugby league terms, that's exactly what we need to do, I reckon, with the subtle difference that we actually DO want to gain interest.

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1 hour ago, Northern Eel said:

Glamming up your lover and parading her out is only going to lead to one thing. Unwanted interest!

In rugby league terms, that's exactly what we need to do, I reckon, with the subtle difference that we actually DO want to gain interest.

I'm not sure of the logic and think the outcomes may progess the sport but leave everything else behind.

More and more everyday!

Edited by Oxford

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1 hour ago, Northern Eel said:

Glamming up your lover and parading her out is only going to lead to one thing. Unwanted interest!

In rugby league terms, that's exactly what we need to do, I reckon, with the subtle difference that we actually DO want to gain interest.

I think we need to leave this analogy here lads.

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I was born to run a club like this. Number 1, I do not spook easily, and those who think I do, are wasting their time, with their surprise attacks.

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8 hours ago, Martyn Sadler said:

That model has been stunningly successful since 1996, while our model hasn't been.

That should spook yer Ghost.....😄

This is the Sadler scenario and his baby, but let me ponder that the MLS model is essentially in all but name a franchise scheme. To get in the cartel, each club operator pays to join. I could see an exchange of club equity to the central body as the sign up fees..

That's how it could be done as a suggestion. One of many. Others exist.

Whilst I am sure the heart of Mr Lenegan would repulse giving up the "Warriors," I wonder if his fiscal head can continue to pocket an annual £1,757,809 per year for that delight? A deal with the collective controlling entity might help burden the costs, if not increase the revenue.

Basically RL needs more. Only the jester would not consider systems that work. At the least, IMG are charged with boosting finance/exposure. My hope is the Game is emboldened through co-operation from advertising to academies.

6 hours ago, whatmichaelsays said:

That's where, for instance, IMG may well set new, higher standards around clubs making players and staff available for media duties and giving greater access (this a not-new complaint from people at Sky), they may well require all players and staff to be media trained to certain standards, and they may have certain KPIs on digital reach. All fairly easy, achievable things. 

Correct. A basic surely. Ideally IMG would audition, select and train the Game's most able media performing players/staff as a cohort.

 

Edited by idrewthehaggis
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Just now, idrewthehaggis said:

This is the Sadler scenario

 

The Sadler Scenario sounds like Martyn's latest crime thriller. Available this Winter from Scratching Shed Publishing. 

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I was born to run a club like this. Number 1, I do not spook easily, and those who think I do, are wasting their time, with their surprise attacks.

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34 minutes ago, idrewthehaggis said:

This is the Sadler scenario and his baby, but let me ponder that the MLS model is essentially in all but name a franchise scheme. To get in the cartel, each club operator pays to join. I could see an exchange of club equity to the central body as the sign up fees..

 

It just strikes me as, yet again, looking at entirely the wrong aspect. It's a solution, and a mighty expensive one, in search of a problem.

It's similar to when the 3 x 10s was being proposed (or whatever madness it was that wanted to see Wigan play North Wales in league games). The league structure, as we've seen time and time again, isn't the problem with British Rugby League.

Similarly the ownership of the clubs simply isn't the problem either. The lack of long-term strategy, absolutely. The power of club owners, of course.

But it takes some mind-bending to think that the solution to all the issues is to simply not have any club owners.

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2 hours ago, idrewthehaggis said:

Correct. A basic surely. Ideally IMG would audition, select and train the Game's most able media performing players/staff as a cohort.

 

I like reading your posts.

Separate to that - you kicked my memory back to life.

This media malarkey was all gonna be upskilled when Brian Barwick got invited into the sport.

IMG will make things better - won't they?

     No reserves,but resilience,persistence and determination are omnipotent.                       

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13 hours ago, The Ghost of 99 said:

It just strikes me as, yet again, looking at entirely the wrong aspect. It's a solution, and a mighty expensive one, in search of a problem.

The solution in search of a problem was the 12-year agreement with IMG.

13 hours ago, The Ghost of 99 said:

It's similar to when the 3 x 10s was being proposed (or whatever madness it was that wanted to see Wigan play North Wales in league games). The league structure, as we've seen time and time again, isn't the problem with British Rugby League.

What do you mean by "as we've seen time and time again"?

13 hours ago, The Ghost of 99 said:

Similarly the ownership of the clubs simply isn't the problem either. The lack of long-term strategy, absolutely. The power of club owners, of course.

With 37 clubs all independently owned and operated by companies that are answerable only to themselves, creating a long term strategy is like herding cats.

13 hours ago, The Ghost of 99 said:

But it takes some mind-bending to think that the solution to all the issues is to simply not have any club owners.

All it takes is a glance at the MLS model across the water. Maybe that is mind-bending for you.

The MLS model still has owners, but in terms of the competition their rights as owners are subsidiary to the rights of the competition centrally to plot its own course.

The reality is that the competition is the essence of the business - what economists would call the business entity.

The MLS model has a legal structure that recognises the reality and allows it to prosper.

It's also worth pointing out that an earlier point you made - that MLS was created when nothing previously existed - wasn't true. Professional soccer had existed for many years in the USA on the basis of individual ownership of clubs, as we have, but despite periods of popularity it had never prospered in the long term.

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