Craig harrison - comments

[Old Frightful]

5 hours ago, DimmestStar said:

"My favourite player is Kane Linnett. He's got Luis Johnson, James Batchelor and Matty Storton with him now. Matt Parcell and Jez Litten speak for themself and are as good as any pairing in the competition. George King will lead the line with Minchella. I think Hull KR are 10-12 points better than last year. I think they'll be top four if they believe and get some consistency. Even top two."

I saw this thread about the players' agent Craig Harrison and noted that Dimmest Star had contributed so I thought I'd take a look to see what they were adding to the debate.

I'm still trying to work out what it is.

Edited December 25, 2022 by Old Frightful

[Oxford]

On 23/12/2022 at 18:03, The storm said:

Now harrison is a players agent and quite outspoken at times, but does he know what he is talking about 

Not really, his motivation is always suspect as with any agent and apart from stating the bl**dy obvious it offers little to the sport, to players development or to Cas ( or any other club).

[RigbyLuger]

9 minutes ago, Oxford said:

Not really, his motivation is always suspect as with any agent and apart from stating the bl**dy obvious it offers little to the sport, to players development or to Cas ( or any other club).

Contributes to clickbait for this site. 

[redjonn]

On 24/12/2022 at 03:40, The storm said:

I am definatey aware of super league contracted players who get paid £18,000 plus match fees. 

Our game has been fairly poorly managed for a nunber of years although IMG have already identified some high level performers. 

That £18,000 is nowhere near good enough and there is a real need to grow a variety of revenue streams like catalan dragons have done. 

I hope the IMG partnership gives security for our players and a minimum standard for a suoer league player, but also identfies ways to bring more money into our sport

 

 

As a matter of interest Ii their not a minimum salary for first team squad players as per NRL?

[redjonn]

On 24/12/2022 at 03:40, The storm said:

I am definatey aware of super league contracted players who get paid £18,000 plus match fees. 

Our game has been fairly poorly managed for a nunber of years although IMG have already identified some high level performers. 

That £18,000 is nowhere near good enough and there is a real need to grow a variety of revenue streams like catalan dragons have done. 

I hope the IMG partnership gives security for our players and a minimum standard for a suoer league player, but also identfies ways to bring more money into our sport

 

 

As a matter of interest Ii their not a minimum salary for first team squad players as per NRL?

[Tommygilf]

20 hours ago, redjonn said:

As a matter of interest Ii their not a minimum salary for first team squad players as per NRL?

Apologies I put the NRL minimum figure. I believe the minimum in SL was dropped to under £15k during covid, and has never been raised again. This only applies to the top 25 squad numbers too, so consider what numbers 26-40 you will see play for a club each season are on...

Edited December 31, 2022 by Tommygilf

[Tommygilf]

On 24/12/2022 at 23:37, SUPERSTUD said:

Players just want to do what they initially started out wanting to do which is play! Paid or not that is all they want to do. Pumpers get hold of them and promise this ###### and that ######. The commitment at even semi pro level is crackers in comparison to what they are paid. The time has come for people to STAND UP for the PLAYERS. IMG I am ready and waiting to be a part of a working committee to ensure PLAYERS rights are protected going forward.

Absolutely.

3 examples of young players I know personally:

1 was at a Super League team, fringe first teamer, trained full time, sent on all the community engagement stuff, still had to have his mum give him lifts, paid absolutely peanuts (I earned more at a restaurant working 10 hours a week). Did 2 or 3 seasons in Champ and L1, became an electrician and packed Rugby in by age of 24.

1 is a current fringe first teamer at a SL club. Trains full time, again is paid peanuts, but better than the first lad. His dad's company is his personal sponsor which I assume probably forms a large amount of his wages ironically. Obviously education is being sacrificed too at this point. 

Finally an academy player at a large championship club stepping up to the reserves/wider first team squad (along with 16 or so others), training 4 times a week till 9pm, essentially a FT environment and expectations around training, wrestling sessions with FT players on £45k etc. Has had a couple of serious injuries during this time too. Guess how much he "earned"? £50 a game.

 For a sport that was founded so players could get a fair recompense for their time, it is frankly appalling what is going on at so many levels of the game. Young men put their bodies on the line and make so many sacrifices, the sport takes advantage of them chasing a dream. Its exploitation frankly. The failure of any sort of players Union in this is even worse.

[SUPERSTUD]

12 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Absolutely.

3 examples of young players I know personally:

1 was at a Super League team, fringe first teamer, trained full time, sent on all the community engagement stuff, still had to have his mum give him lifts, paid absolutely peanuts (I earned more at a restaurant working 10 hours a week). Did 2 or 3 seasons in Champ and L1, became an electrician and packed Rugby in by age of 24.

1 is a current fringe first teamer at a SL club. Trains full time, again is paid peanuts, but better than the first lad. His dad's company is his personal sponsor which I assume probably forms a large amount of his wages ironically. Obviously education is being sacrificed too at this point. 

Finally an academy player at a large championship club stepping up to the reserves/wider first team squad (along with 16 or so others), training 4 times a week till 9pm, essentially a FT environment and expectations around training, wrestling sessions with FT players on £45k etc. Has had a couple of serious injuries during this time too. Guess how much he "earned"? £50 a game.

 For a sport that was founded so players could get a fair recompense for their time, it is frankly appalling what is going on at so many levels of the game. Young men put their bodies on the line and make so many sacrifices, the sport takes advantage of them chasing a dream. Its exploitation frankly. The failure of any sort of players Union in this is even worse.

Yep exploitation. Time for an independent union to to be formed. I am ready and waiting. Come on IMG get in touch.

[TrueBull]

13 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Apologies I put the NRL minimum figure. I believe the minimum in SL was dropped to under £15k during covid, and has never been raised again. This only applies to the top 25 squad numbers too, so consider what numbers 26-40 you will see play for a club each season are on...

What is the salary cap these days? I’ve seen £2.1m and £1.8m mentioned. Does it just apply to the top 25 squad players? Or the entire playing roster? 
 

If the former, then the average is £1.8m/25 which is £72k. Assuming the club is actually spending the full cap…. Which is not bad I suppose. Falling far behind RU and NRL which are the main competitors for players. But for every star halfback on £172k you need 2 youngsters on £22k. 

IMG need to grow revenue, quickly, so that player wages and player quality improves, which should drive entertainment and growth of the game. 

 

[Tex Evans Thigh]

For what players go through to make the grade and stay there, they are paid a pittance. One of the hardest sports in the world and you get paid more in a supermarket. Frankly, its a joke.

[RigbyLuger]

How do we create more money though, without clubs who haven't got it spending it? That's a question the RFL should have been answering, and hopefully IMG will.

[David Dockhouse Host]

On 31/12/2022 at 10:11, Tommygilf said:

Absolutely.

3 examples of young players I know personally:

1 was at a Super League team, fringe first teamer, trained full time, sent on all the community engagement stuff, still had to have his mum give him lifts, paid absolutely peanuts (I earned more at a restaurant working 10 hours a week). Did 2 or 3 seasons in Champ and L1, became an electrician and packed Rugby in by age of 24.

1 is a current fringe first teamer at a SL club. Trains full time, again is paid peanuts, but better than the first lad. His dad's company is his personal sponsor which I assume probably forms a large amount of his wages ironically. Obviously education is being sacrificed too at this point. 

Finally an academy player at a large championship club stepping up to the reserves/wider first team squad (along with 16 or so others), training 4 times a week till 9pm, essentially a FT environment and expectations around training, wrestling sessions with FT players on £45k etc. Has had a couple of serious injuries during this time too. Guess how much he "earned"? £50 a game.

 For a sport that was founded so players could get a fair recompense for their time, it is frankly appalling what is going on at so many levels of the game. Young men put their bodies on the line and make so many sacrifices, the sport takes advantage of them chasing a dream. Its exploitation frankly. The failure of any sort of players Union in this is even worse.

It's hard for people to understand and accept this is the situation.

The experiences you've described there are the same as mine.

Almost becomes worthless money wise if not I'm the top 20 of a top 12 club.

I know wages that don't cover travel, essentially paying to be part of a club. 

[David Dockhouse Host]

On 01/01/2023 at 02:48, Tex Evans Thigh said:

For what players go through to make the grade and stay there, they are paid a pittance. One of the hardest sports in the world and you get paid more in a supermarket. Frankly, its a joke.

Yep, a supermarket job would pay around £20k basic, I doubt there's many moving from academy to 1st team above that and the rest well below.

The potential to earn good money is there, and a driver but in reality how many make it? And those who do what happens when their career is over?

Financially we don't pay enough to fringe players to entice them

[Tommygilf]

On 31/12/2022 at 23:36, TrueBull said:

What is the salary cap these days? I’ve seen £2.1m and £1.8m mentioned. Does it just apply to the top 25 squad players? Or the entire playing roster? 
 

If the former, then the average is £1.8m/25 which is £72k. Assuming the club is actually spending the full cap…. Which is not bad I suppose. Falling far behind RU and NRL which are the main competitors for players. But for every star halfback on £172k you need 2 youngsters on £22k. 

IMG need to grow revenue, quickly, so that player wages and player quality improves, which should drive entertainment and growth of the game. 

 

Its not as straightforward I don't think. Officially it is £2.1 million. But there are dispensations for club trained players and I think England players are/were also given an allowance on the Cap. Union players (or other imports from others sports) count as zero then half their salary against the cap over the first 2 years. Then there are up to 2 designated Marquee players whose first £150k counts against the cap. 

All in all, a top club with a top academy could quite legitimately be spending upwards of £3 million on their squad "within the provisions of the cap". The simpler solution would be to have a hard cap that had increased with inflation over the past 25 years. Some clubs don't want that on the pretence the low cap allows them to compete. 

[Tommygilf]

41 minutes ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

It's hard for people to understand and accept this is the situation.

The experiences you've described there are the same as mine.

Almost becomes worthless money wise if not I'm the top 20 of a top 12 club.

I know wages that don't cover travel, essentially paying to be part of a club. 

It smacks of a sport playing at being professional when it cannot afford it to me. Or one stuck financially in the past.

Perhaps both are true.

This is all before nepotism and favouritism come into play too.

[David Dockhouse Host]

13 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

It smacks of a sport playing at being professional when it cannot afford it to me. Or one stuck financially in the past.

Perhaps both are true.

This is all before nepotism and favouritism come into play too.

I just think they cannot afford more and are in a position to make very low offers as there's no other clubs competing money wise.

It's different for the very top players, good money on offer it just drops dramatically after that first few tiers.

Clubs use all their money on the top players and use the carrot of the big time to get fringe players in on barely anything.  

[David Dockhouse Host]

I imagine at 18 that £20k is attractive and more money than you've had before, still on that at 22 when you may want a car and house and it doesn't look as good.

And you have no qualifications or work experience. 

[Mumby Magic]

Amongst alot of things we need a decent Social Media outlet and platform. You put in Rugby League on YouTube and you get various efforts and you scroll ten videos down and you come across Rugby Union. Maybe IMG can improve this. Not a biggy by any means but I'm a big music fan and have cone across artistes I've never listened to via YouTube. 

[sweaty craiq]

19 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

It smacks of a sport playing at being professional when it cannot afford it to me. Or one stuck financially in the past.

Perhaps both are true.

This is all before nepotism and favouritism come into play too.

It stinks of a sport whereby clubs who really shouldn't be in SL are, and operate on how little they can spend to stay in, we allow these clubs to vote against increasing the cap with the caveat given to the big boys that they can spend much more due to their investments in Academies that feeds the first team - this then appeases the owners of the big 4/5 who know they need little personal cash input to own a ''successful'' club.

It is very difficult to 'oust' the bottom feeders from the comp due to the promoted team choosing its ingredients after all others have shopped - so the wheel keeps rotating.

The sport has little vision and oodles of protectionism, lets see if IGM has the balls to shake things up, and take a membership bond from all A and B clubs, lets say £5m

[GUBRATS]

1 hour ago, sweaty craiq said:

It stinks of a sport whereby clubs who really shouldn't be in SL are, and operate on how little they can spend to stay in, we allow these clubs to vote against increasing the cap with the caveat given to the big boys that they can spend much more due to their investments in Academies that feeds the first team - this then appeases the owners of the big 4/5 who know they need little personal cash input to own a ''successful'' club.

It is very difficult to 'oust' the bottom feeders from the comp due to the promoted team choosing its ingredients after all others have shopped - so the wheel keeps rotating.

The sport has little vision and oodles of protectionism, lets see if IGM has the balls to shake things up, and take a membership bond from all A and B clubs, lets say £5m

Sweaty , you know that isn't possible 

[Tommygilf]

2 hours ago, sweaty craiq said:

It stinks of a sport whereby clubs who really shouldn't be in SL are, and operate on how little they can spend to stay in, we allow these clubs to vote against increasing the cap with the caveat given to the big boys that they can spend much more due to their investments in Academies that feeds the first team - this then appeases the owners of the big 4/5 who know they need little personal cash input to own a ''successful'' club.

It is very difficult to 'oust' the bottom feeders from the comp due to the promoted team choosing its ingredients after all others have shopped - so the wheel keeps rotating.

The sport has little vision and oodles of protectionism, lets see if IGM has the balls to shake things up, and take a membership bond from all A and B clubs, lets say £5m

I think especially over the past 10 years with the political decision on the reintroduction of P/R into a league competition that can't really manage it (and also has some rules that actively work against it), there has been zero focus on growing top flight clubs and the top flight as a whole.

Given we are already at a stage whereby we officially are wanting 12 to then more A Grade Clubs, I think your suggestion, in some form, could have merit. It weeds out those that can't make it at that time to a more appropriate level for them, it weeds out fantasy projects with nothing behind them, and it sets a clear bar for all from any part of the country to reach to gain entry whilst not risking the fundamentals of the competition as a business.

The main problem I think you would have is how low do you have to set the bar to gain the number of clubs you want to make it viable.

[Tommygilf]

8 hours ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

I just think they cannot afford more and are in a position to make very low offers as there's no other clubs competing money wise.

It's different for the very top players, good money on offer it just drops dramatically after that first few tiers.

Clubs use all their money on the top players and use the carrot of the big time to get fringe players in on barely anything.  

We are very fortunate that competitor club rugby union in the traditional league areas have collapsed over the past 10 years to have not had more be poached.

However, I think we will see increasing numbers of ever younger players going to Australia every year going forward. They will become a direct competitor for talent.

Fundamentally the salary cap should have risen significantly, and minimum salaries should be increased accordingly.

[David Dockhouse Host]

32 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

We are very fortunate that competitor club rugby union in the traditional league areas have collapsed over the past 10 years to have not had more be poached.

However, I think we will see increasing numbers of ever younger players going to Australia every year going forward. They will become a direct competitor for talent.

Fundamentally the salary cap should have risen significantly, and minimum salaries should be increased accordingly.

I don't think increasing the salary cap would have much of an affect on this particular issue. The clubs will pay what they can or are willing to pay. Supply and demand, not many clubs or opportunities for young players, so many drop out it's a huge issue for RL.

I've long since argued we have enough players, the playing pool is big, its just lost in late teenage years as clubs won't or cannot pay a decent wage to enough fringe players.

 

If there was more money and they could offer more cash to more players the pyramid would be better served. 

[Eddie]

On 30/12/2022 at 12:28, Oxford said:

Not really, his motivation is always suspect as with any agent and apart from stating the bl**dy obvious it offers little to the sport, to players development or to Cas ( or any other club).

Actually having listened to him a number of times, while not my cup of tea I do think he has the welfare of his players at the centre of what he does and he is very much a rugby league fan also (as demonstrated by his previous ownership of Donny). If he just wanted to make money he’d bin RL right off and concentrate on being a football agent. 

[Oxford]

1 hour ago, Eddie said:

Actually having listened to him a number of times, while not my cup of tea I do think he has the welfare of his players at the centre of what he does and he is very much a rugby league fan also (as demonstrated by his previous ownership of Donny). If he just wanted to make money he’d bin RL right off and concentrate on being a football agent. 

Well, I can't agree. I've listened to him far too many times and although he's RL that does not mean the bottom line isn't front and center and that means however RL he might be he's always got to be be on the look out for the highest bidder.

In terms of his punditry he tends to state the obvious and if I want that I can always consult social media.