IMG proposals

[Barley Mow]

4 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Bye rounds and rescheduled games are surely not that difficult? Really?

In fact, RL already does this anyway.

Bye rounds would still reduce the number of league matches for the clubs who need match day income the most.

We always hear complaints when teams have to play twice in a week, so do we really want to add rescheduled matches into the mix?

[Harry Stottle]

18 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

I can't see this working without having a negative impact on the competitions below SL

Where have you been hiding Barley that simply does not matter does it?

[Jughead]

I’ve not really been convinced on group stages rather than knockout games but I recognise that we probably need to do something to change the perception of the competition, despite what happens on the field every year. 

I don’t know if Super League clubs would be keen on losing home games against commercially viable opposition, whether that’s their local rivals or the bigger clubs, in favour of playing lower league opposition. There’s a few exceptions to that but on the whole, I’m not sure on it as an idea.

The competition isn’t that appetising to fans, you’d have to bundle the group games into a season ticket or sell them as their own bundle, though I’m not sure if that’s any more appealing. 

[Tommygilf]

22 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

And I think that highlights the issue! SL has a problem with losing 2 loop fixtures. That is emphatically not a CC problem.

This is an effort to fill a SL hole with the laziest solution available. 

The CC itself is a problem too though. This is a way to keep it going whilst maintaining the amateur level stuff that works and the pro stuff that works.

[Tommygilf]

23 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

Bye rounds would still reduce the number of league matches for the clubs who need match day income the most.

We always hear complaints when teams have to play twice in a week, so do we really want to add rescheduled matches into the mix?

Clubs and leagues already have to have arrangements in place for rescheduled matches due to cup games now. It isn't an issue.

[Tommygilf]

10 minutes ago, Jughead said:

I’ve not really been convinced on group stages rather than knockout games but I recognise that we probably need to do something to change the perception of the competition, despite what happens on the field every year. 

I don’t know if Super League clubs would be keen on losing home games against commercially viable opposition, whether that’s their local rivals or the bigger clubs, in favour of playing lower league opposition. There’s a few exceptions to that but on the whole, I’m not sure on it as an idea.

The competition isn’t that appetising to fans, you’d have to bundle the group games into a season ticket or sell them as their own bundle, though I’m not sure if that’s any more appealing. 

I think they end up being bundled into STs whilst Loop fixtures go from the league schedule. The "knockouts" are your usual one off tickets probably.

[Harry Stottle]

Oh the Challenge Cup, from our No 1 comp to being the excuse of pacifying the top tier.

I remember the time when it was the most anticipated of matches, fans eagerly awaiting the draw to see who their team was up against with all 30 teams in the hat plus 2 amatuer teams to make up to the equally divisible 32.

We now have 36 clubs of which 26 of those are the top 2 tiers, surely it is not beyond the powers that be to organise a pre comp of Tier 3 and Amatuer clubs to eliminate down to 6 teams that can be added to the 26 to make the magical 32 and re-introduce the format of "all in" the draw and have a proper knock out comp.

[RP London]

25 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

Bye rounds would still reduce the number of league matches for the clubs who need match day income the most.

We always hear complaints when teams have to play twice in a week, so do we really want to add rescheduled matches into the mix?

only if we are looking at this in isolation. 

1895 cup, would that stay if this all happens?

do the leagues stay in the split that they are now or do we re-shuffle league one etc and drop 2 teams down, meaning more games for league 1 clubs but knowing that most of the champ clubs are in this new set up so them losing 2 teams is not so important?

do they re set the 1895 cup to be done for all those not making this new CC set up... 

For me: I dont like this league idea, i dont think it will help personally as there will be dead matches in it with massive disparities in quality, plus we will still get the "playing the same team loads of times" arguments. I would agree with adding Super League teams in earlier etc..

But i think we do criticise things on too much of a linear basis where there could be quite a lot of other bits to come out around it that make some of the logistical things work. I think the bigger concern though has to be "will it solve the issue it is being designed to solve" and I am not sure that it would. 

Final moving every year, rounds not having a massive element of risk early enough, not enough "different" matches.. those are the main things for me.

[Barley Mow]

Just now, Tommygilf said:

Clubs and leagues already have to have arrangements in place for rescheduled matches due to cup games now. It isn't an issue.

That's true, but this would make it significantly more likely that those arrangements would have to be brought into use.

At present (in the pro-divisions at least) it's usually a couple of matches that have to be rescheduled each year. With a group stage you would potentially have half the championship clubs and half the L1 clubs in the groups and the other half with 4 empty weeks, only for them all to have to make up the fixtures.

It may be feasible, but it wouldn't be ideal and I believe it would overall be a negative for clubs outside SL, without being a substantial positive for those in SL.

[RP London]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

Oh the Challenge Cup, from our No 1 comp to being the excuse of pacifying the top tier.

I remember the time when it was the most anticipated of matches, fans eagerly awaiting the draw to see who their team was up against with all 30 teams in the hat plus 2 amatuer teams to make up to the equally divisible 32.

We now have 36 clubs of which 26 of those are the top 2 tiers, surely it is not beyond the powers that be to organise a pre comp of Tier 3 and Amatuer clubs to eliminate down to 6 teams that can be added to the 26 to make the magical 32 and re-introduce the format of "all in" the draw and have a proper knock out comp.

Thats the way of knock out cups now across the board, used to be great, now seen as a bit of a chore. 

[redjonn]

I am not sure finding a single solution to grouping together the issues of losing SL loop fixtures, losing SL magic and the declining interest in CC makes any sense. In this case thinking the solution to all 3 is tinkering with the structure of the CC - namely group matches.

Each are separate issues with the need for separate solutions... each is about loss of revenue or declining revenue from games for sure, but you would need to show me the marketing analysis to prove to me that restructuring the CC is a fix for all 3.

 

[DI Keith Fowler]

They're being quite honest with what it is at least. It's a way to maintain SL teams revenues while getting rid of loop fixtures. The bonus might be getting some historical but scarcely played derbies back with a bit more regularity (Bradford-Leeds, Widnes-Warrington). 

I'll wait to see how this would work in scheduling but I'm not absolutely against it as a solution it could solve a number of problems. 

[Gerrumonside ref]

Is the Magic Weekend definitely being axed from the calendar?

Seems like for many that had become the big day out instead of the Challenge Cup final.

There’s probably good reason for that as more of a chance to see the team you support playing in the primary competition in a good, closer location with cheaper accommodation.

I have fond memories of the Challenge Cup and think there’s still a prestige element to it, if it could be reinvigorated then I would be happy.

I’m unsure about a group stage as I think that we’re copying an unloved feature of football’s Champions League and the dead rubbers would be inevitable 

Could we instead perhaps combine the last eight of the Challenge Cup with a Magic style weekend at a big stadium like Newcastle?

Four games, eight teams with perhaps the semi finals of the 1895 or whatever thrown in if you wanted another two games to fill the schedule?

 

 

[Jughead]

5 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Is the Magic Weekend definitely being axed from the calendar?

Seems like for many that had become the big day out instead of the Challenge Cup final.

There’s probably good reason for that as more of a chance to see the team you support playing in the primary competition in a good, closer location with cheaper accommodation.

I have fond memories of the Challenge Cup and think there’s still a prestige element to it, if it could be reinvigorated then I would be happy.

I’m unsure about a group stage as I think that we’re copying an unloved feature of football’s Champions League and the dead rubbers would be inevitable 

Could we instead perhaps combine the last eight of the Challenge Cup with a Magic style weekend at a big stadium like Newcastle?

Four games, eight teams with perhaps the semi finals of the 1895 or whatever thrown in if you wanted another two games to fill the schedule?

 

 

Magic or The Bash, you’re guaranteed to see your team. Wembley, you’re not. I can’t see the crowds flocking to Wembley instead and we’ve got to move past the old days where pubs and clubs ran coaches.

I don’t see a Magic weekend in the cup being any good at all, when the semi and final are already neutral venues. A third neutral venue event is far too many. 

[Gerrumonside ref]

4 minutes ago, Jughead said:

Magic or The Bash, you’re guaranteed to see your team. Wembley, you’re not. I can’t see the crowds flocking to Wembley instead and we’ve got to move past the old days where pubs and clubs ran coaches.

I don’t see a Magic weekend in the cup being any good at all, when the semi and final are already neutral venues. A third neutral venue event is far too many. 

 

Yes, I had hinted at the point about partisanship having more pulling power when it comes to weighing up Magic (or Bash) vs Challenge Cup.

I take your point about the neutral venues three rounds in a row.

Is Magic still being axed?

Edited February 14, 2023 by Gerrumonside ref

[Jughead]

1 minute ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

 

Yes, I had hinted at the point about partisanship having more pulling power when it comes to weighing up Magic (or Bash) vs Challenge Cup.

I take your point about the neutral venues three rounds in a row.

Is Magic still being axed?

It’s been rumoured to have been going , to be replaced by something else, since the IMG findings pre Christmas but then John Davidson reported this week that it hadn’t been definitely decided so, who knows?

 

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, Jughead said:

It’s been rumoured to have been going , to be replaced by something else, since the IMG findings pre Christmas but then John Davidson reported this week that it hadn’t been definitely decided so, who knows?

 

The whole point though is that nothing has been decided. Everything is at the idea stage. And IMG don’t get the final decision. 

[Oxford]

27 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

The whole point though is that nothing has been decided. Everything is at the idea stage. And IMG don’t get the final decision. 

I think it's largely because of the way this has been covered and talked about on social media all very piece meal, haphazard and hard to see IMG for the rumours.

And although they don't get the final say, it would be a bit silly to sign up with IMG for Twelve Years Before the Mast to then ignore their ideas and hang on to what's old and comfortable.

[Harry Stottle]

2 hours ago, RP London said:

Thats the way of knock out cups now across the board, used to be great, now seen as a bit of a chore. 

Who by RP?

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

Who by RP?

The thousands of people who don't turn up for those games but do for regular season matches.

[Rugbyleaguesupporter]

Problem with any proposal is that in RL there are shortcomings. 

Proposal of group stages seems sensible. Why? 

-Allows clubs to maintain home games and revenue 

-Allow for senior players to rest 

-Adds a bit of variety 

-Boost lower leagues with a likely big pay day. 

-Smaller league 1 clubs often don't want many more games due to cost 

Yes, there are downsides- but seems a good idea to pursue  

The past has gone- professional teams will nearly always beat semi professional. The games changed- the Cup isn't as exciting as only SL and odd championship team can compete 

[Harry Stottle]

1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

The thousands of people who don't turn up for those games but do for regular season matches.

Aye Tommy, but under this format of staging entry levels, going back to the old system may just reinvigorate interest.

[RP London]

2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Who by RP?

 

Just now, Tommygilf said:

The thousands of people who don't turn up for those games but do for regular season matches.

That was pretty much the answer I was going to give. 

Union used to have the Pilkington Cup which sold out Twickenham (other sponsors were available but its the one i remember) that no longer exists.. 

The FA Cup and League cup are such chores that they are always looking to cut out the extras either 2nd legs or replays are being cut left right and centre.. and neither are the festival or showcase that they used to be, especially the FA Cup. 

Dont get me wrong I love the knock out cups but I also realise that they are seen as a chore and the first things to be cut back when games need to go.

 

[Dave T]

7 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Aye Tommy, but under this format of staging entry levels, going back to the old system may just reinvigorate interest.

I'd love to see the Cup regain its status, but if the draw was more of a free-for-all as it used to be (and I agree it was certainly more fun) - I'm not sure why that would make games more attractive.

And that's the big issue here. We either do something that makes fans want to attend games that they currently don't feel inclined to. We know season tickets work, so group games pay into that space, but a big problem (imho) is that it removes the knockout element which makes the club special.

But as cup's have become less prominent in RL, I have certainly missed the away days at grounds that you wouldn't normally get to go to.

I'm not sure what the solution is tbh. 

[GUBRATS]

So the solution to ' loop ' games is to have ' loop ' games ?  

Bonkers