IMG Grading Unveiled

[Route66]

11 hours ago, Big Picture said:

The problem there is that with an M62-based league comprised of clubs in smallish, unfashionable, economically disadvantaged towns which are not the sort of places the public associates with big time major pro sport, there aren't any big matches, certainly none big enough to draw a big enough crowd to make it look good in a big stadium.  Sorry to say, the plain truth is that the likes of Wigan and St Helens aren't big enough draws and the rest (with the possible exception of Leeds) are even less saleable to the broader public.

That's a pretty depressing statement and its presumably why IMG have been brought in but if risks aren't taken what is the future at the top of the game in this country. The teams that are receiving the large amount of tv money are ultimately responsible for growing the game. 

Away from super league would it be total disaster if funding was cut so all clubs received a nominal fee,most fans  following teams outside the super league will watch regardless of division as long as they are in a viable equal league 

 

[bobbruce]

13 minutes ago, Route66 said:

That's a pretty depressing statement and its presumably why IMG have been brought in but if risks aren't taken what is the future at the top of the game in this country. The teams that are receiving the large amount of tv money are ultimately responsible for growing the game. 

Away from super league would it be total disaster if funding was cut so all clubs received a nominal fee,most fans  following teams outside the super league will watch regardless of division as long as they are in a viable equal league 

 

As it stands SL give a large amount of their tv money to the RFL in order to fund them and also to be distributed to the rest of the game. Unfortunately for some reason in the last few years most of that money has been given to the top few teams in the championship. 

[JonM]

On 24/03/2023 at 11:37, gingerjon said:

Maybe it will be different this time but playing club games at big stadiums was a feature of the early days of Super League and it was a complete disaster. Not saying it couldn't work but without a huge effort it's set up to fail.

Complete disaster is probably overstating it a bit - the weekend of games at Gateshead, Cardiff, Swansea, Northampton and Edinburgh in 1998 got a similar aggregate attendance to other rounds.

But yes, Catalans v Wigan in Barcelona is the model to follow, not say London v Hull in Leicester in front of 4000 people.

[Big Picture]

59 minutes ago, JonM said:

Complete disaster is probably overstating it a bit - the weekend of games at Gateshead, Cardiff, Swansea, Northampton and Edinburgh in 1998 got a similar aggregate attendance to other rounds.

But yes, Catalans v Wigan in Barcelona is the model to follow, not say London v Hull in Leicester in front of 4000 people.

Catalans vs Wigan in Barcelona benefitted from a unique aspect of the local population: pride in their Catalan identity which a club with a Catalan identity could tap into and get FC Barcelona (which shares their Catalan identity) on board as an active and supportive partner.  They even had the unofficial Catalan anthem Els Segadors (The Reapers) played before kickoff.

There isn't anywhere the traditional English clubs can go where they'd have any similar connection with the locals to build on.

Edited March 25, 2023 by Big Picture

[JonM]

4 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

There isn't anywhere the traditional English clubs can go where they'd have any similar connection with the locals to build on.

And yet English rugby union clubs who were playing in front of three figure crowds a generation or so back, with zero local connection to anybody, have been able to stage similar big events. Likewise completely made-up franchises in cricket's hundred, also with no local connection to anybody.

[Big Picture]

39 minutes ago, JonM said:

And yet English rugby union clubs who were playing in front of three figure crowds a generation or so back, with zero local connection to anybody, have been able to stage similar big events. Likewise completely made-up franchises in cricket's hundred, also with no local connection to anybody.

Those are national sports which get good national media coverage and England has high profile national teams in both.  That's an big advantage they have over RL.

[Oxford]

3 hours ago, JonM said:

And yet English rugby union clubs who were playing in front of three figure crowds a generation or so back, with zero local connection to anybody, have been able to stage similar big events. Likewise completely made-up franchises in cricket's hundred, also with no local connection to anybody.

That's a really interesting point.

Is it we've simply moved on to an era where people no longer connect with where they're from and even sport is opted for like pick'n'mix sweets?

 

[Oxford]

3 hours ago, Big Picture said:

Those are national sports which get good national media coverage

Without that huge often unmerited legacy media coverage it wouldn't matter if they were both pan-galactic sports.

[Angelic Cynic]

I saw this quote,today,from a former owner of a soccer club.

On the subject of overseas ownership, no investor is spared his censure, including the type of American wealth fund which bought his beloved Chelsea. ‘The Arabs. Qataris, Saudi Arabia, Dubai, Bahrain... clubs are either a rich man’s plaything or what’s even worse, we’ve [tried to] follow the American style where they’ve got five or six national games, each with 10, 12 clubs, no relegation, and they’re all owned by wealth management companies,’ he says. ‘It’s just an investment to them. You don’t win things any more, you buy them and I think it’s disgraceful. It’s not the game.’

I hadn't realised there was no promotion or relegation in any sport in the USA.

I found this link - https://urbanpitch.com/why-promotion-and-relegation-will-never-happen-in-the-u-s/#:~:text=Professional Sports in the U.S. are Closed Systems&text=And yet%2C none of them have promotion and relegation.

 And this one,from last month  - https://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/explained-why-us-soccer-doesnt-have-relegation-and-promotion---and-will-mls-ever-change/7a2v9a1dga8v116cbjr5lspl1

                                                                                                                               Seems the closed shop is the way the sport has/will become from 2025.

[The Blues Ox]

I'd love for some sort of american draft system to come in, I imagine the top teams might soon start investing in the community or heartland clubs if they thought their options were either pay up or stick to their own areas. Unfortunatley the idea of some sort of franchise system is flawed from the beginning without a very strong development system and without the money to invest in it like is the case in Rugby League. The alternative of promotion and relegation is also flawed when there is such a huge disparity between funding and again the money is not there to do anything about it. Rugby League at this point is in a bit of a hole and one that it will be difficult to dig itself out of. 

[Harry Stottle]

On 24/03/2023 at 22:51, Big Picture said:

The problem there is that with an M62-based league comprised of clubs in smallish, unfashionable, economically disadvantaged towns which are not the sort of places the public associates with big time major pro sport, there aren't any big matches, certainly none big enough to draw a big enough crowd to make it look good in a big stadium.  Sorry to say, the plain truth is that the likes of Wigan and St Helens aren't big enough draws and the rest (with the possible exception of Leeds) are even less saleable to the broader public.

As I said to you the other day, it's about time we learn to appreciate and focus on what we have got, put all the effort into making that as big as it can be, keep those who regularly - with a good few additions - keep coming back. 

We have the infrastructure to develop it moreso on its present footprint, the populas that watches RL has most likely nearly changed in its entirety well at least +90% since I first went to a game in 1959, and contrary to popular opinion - most probably by those who make up their mind without actually venturing into a ground that the attdendances are made up of old men, they are most certainly not, we will continue to regenerate because it is in the DNA of where we live in the so called heartlands, not so in the well trodden path of experimental expansion tried in so many places since I went to my first game, with a bit more effort in the heartlands we can certainly improve on what we have got.

[GeordieSaint]

47 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

As I said to you the other day, it's about time we learn to appreciate and focus on what we have got, put all the effort into making that as big as it can be, keep those who regularly - with a good few additions - keep coming back. 

The same argument has no doubt been spun for over a 125yrs. It’s not either or with tradition vs expansion. Both can be achieved by being done properly. The latter has never been done properly in the UK. 

[Big Picture]

4 hours ago, Angelic Cynic said:

I hadn't realised there was no promotion or relegation in any sport in the USA.

I found this link - https://urbanpitch.com/why-promotion-and-relegation-will-never-happen-in-the-u-s/#:~:text=Professional Sports in the U.S. are Closed Systems&text=And yet%2C none of them have promotion and relegation.

And as the financial numbers in that report show plainly, the North American franchised closed system model is what makes owning franchises in both the North American major pro leagues and their minor league counterparts a profitable investment for franchise owners.

The sort of increases in franchise values  listed there occur in the minor leagues too.  Forbes periodically publishes valuations of minor league franchises, and the value of triple-A baseball's Sacramento River Cats went from 29.8 million US$ in 2008 to 39 million US$ in 2013 and then 49 million US$ in 2016; if the value continued to appreciate at the same rate since then the franchise is probably worth 70 million US$ now.

In contrast, as this Wall Street Journal account of the financial haircut US billionaire Randy Lerner took after buying Aston Villa in 2006 shows, the European P&R model makes them a dubious investment.

[Angelic Cynic]

2 hours ago, Big Picture said:

And as the financial numbers in that report show plainly, the North American franchised closed system model is what makes owning franchises in both the North American major pro leagues and their minor league counterparts a profitable investment for franchise owners.

The sort of increases in franchise values  listed there occur in the minor leagues too.  Forbes periodically publishes valuations of minor league franchises, and the value of triple-A baseball's Sacramento River Cats went from 29.8 million US$ in 2008 to 39 million US$ in 2013 and then 49 million US$ in 2016; if the value continued to appreciate at the same rate since then the franchise is probably worth 70 million US$ now.

In contrast, as this Wall Street Journal account of the financial haircut US billionaire Randy Lerner took after buying Aston Villa in 2006 shows, the European P&R model makes them a dubious investment.

Big broadcast deal - and money NOT going to the clubs!

Interesting times ahead....possibly.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, GeordieSaint said:

The same argument has no doubt been spun for over a 125yrs. It’s not either or with tradition vs expansion. Both can be achieved by being done properly. The latter has never been done properly in the UK. 

It's just wishful thinking. There are a lot more distractions these days and RL has to fight harder for its share. The sport can't survive by reverting back to the heartlands. It needs both.

[Angelic Cynic]

2 hours ago, NW10LDN said:

It's just wishful thinking. There are a lot more distractions these days and RL has to fight harder for its share. The sport can't survive by reverting back to the heartlands. It needs both.

I don't think it will happen,and ignoring team work index,the other code may be worth looking at as IMG seem to admire catchment areas, and the difference to both Ireland and Wales in the other code.

Wales had 18 town clubs - now they have 4 region clubs.They are experiencing problems.

Ireland,without any top level soccer clubs,made a success of their already established,rich in history,clubs.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2023/feb/26/wales-in-crisis-regions-the-bane-of-a-rugby-nation-facing-the-abyss  

[Liverpool Rover]

On 24/03/2023 at 22:51, Big Picture said:

The problem there is that with an M62-based league comprised of clubs in smallish, unfashionable, economically disadvantaged towns which are not the sort of places the public associates with big time major pro sport, there aren't any big matches, certainly none big enough to draw a big enough crowd to make it look good in a big stadium.  Sorry to say, the plain truth is that the likes of Wigan and St Helens aren't big enough draws and the rest (with the possible exception of Leeds) are even less saleable to the broader public.

I would say that a lot of teams in the RU Premiership aren't based in towns you associate with major pro sport either but With IMG on board to help build a fanbase one of the best ways is to create events that people want to go to and taking games to a bigger stadium and creating an event feel to it with bands etc is one way of doing that. This way you can market the game to RL & general sports fans who may fancy going to a game and at the same time market that other things will be going on to try to attract families who want a day out so you are targeting as wide a range of people as you can. I'm not sure I agree with teams not being big enough draws, I think most people won't really care where they are from if they produce a good game.

[Tommygilf]

Remember, its clubs like Skolars, Cornwall and Newcastle holding the game and clubs like Keighley back...

 

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

Remember, its clubs like Skolars, Cornwall and Newcastle holding the game and clubs like Keighley back...

 

That post reminds of a specific non league team locally that is somewhat infamous for doing everything on the cheap (aside, ironically, from paying some of its players). Its half time tea bar is a bloke with a kettle. If you're not in the queue for the first eight or so cups then you won't get a half time cuppa because he has to reboil the kettle.

[Tommygilf]

3 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

That post reminds of a specific non league team locally that is somewhat infamous for doing everything on the cheap (aside, ironically, from paying some of its players). Its half time tea bar is a bloke with a kettle. If you're not in the queue for the first eight or so cups then you won't get a half time cuppa because he has to reboil the kettle.

It's hopefully a stark reminder of why clubs need to be encouraged to do more than just spend money on a squad for promotion in a given season.

I think a lot of fans who only attend matches in 1 division don't realise how massive the gulf is even between the likes of Wakey and Cas with a lot of the semi pro outfits as professional organisations.

[north yorks trinity]

5 hours ago, Liverpool Rover said:

I'm not sure I agree with teams not being big enough draws, I think most people won't really care where they are from if they produce a good game.

Exactly. The town isn't relevant. Travel time to get there and awareness is. The days of the majority walking to the ground from home are well behind us. 

[Dave T]

The constant claims of focusing on what we have, or the heartlands is tiring. 

The vast, vast majority of games, activity, development, money etc is spent on the heartland areas. 

The heartlands have never been neglected for a second. 

The top division of our sport is full of heartland clubs. 

We can do a hell of a lot more on expansion before there is any talk of doing enough, never mind too much. 

[north yorks trinity]

26 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Remember, its clubs like Skolars, Cornwall and Newcastle holding the game and clubs like Keighley back...

 

So a club on the up has it's best day for some years with a great crowd, finds itself a bit overstretched as a result and we use people moaning about a cup of tea or a beer as stick to beat them with. This sums up a lot of the negative mentality holding us back.

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, north yorks trinity said:

So a club on the up has it's best day for some years with a great crowd, finds itself a bit overstretched as a result and we use people moaning about a cup of tea or a beer as stick to beat them with. This sums up a lot of the negative mentality holding us back.

And, just think, all the club had to do to avoid it was find maybe 3-4 more people to man the bars during the breaks.

[north yorks trinity]

4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

The constant claims of focusing on what we have, or the heartlands is tiring. 

The vast, vast majority of games, activity, development, money etc is spent on the heartland areas. 

The heartlands have never been neglected for a second. 

The top division of our sport is full of heartland clubs. 

We can do a hell of a lot more on expansion before there is any talk of doing enough, never mind too much. 

But there's too many people thinking it has to be either/or as witnessed by the criticism of Keighley above, when they have so much potential to develop further, just as Cornwall, Newcastle and London do too.