IMG Grading Unveiled

[Harry Stottle]

6 hours ago, DACS said:

Removing P&R does a couple of things. Firstly, when combined with the grading criteria it provides certainty to club owners. You want clubs to focus on youth development, improving facilities etc? Far easier to do if you know you'll still be in SL in  two, three or five years.  At present every club in SL would lose half their squad if relegated, and even more in terms of funding. Its a wicked drop which means that for a number of clubs the sole aim is survival.

No P&R also means you can clearly explain what you are selling to external investors (including sponsors and TV companies).  IMG's job now is to show us the money with respect to these external investors.

Thirdly, and this is the bit so many fans seem to struggle with on the basis that its 'not fair' is the fact that SL is not and never has been a league of equals. There are some big clubs and some smaller ones, and hardly any of the current clubs outside SL are capable of becoming big clubs. Relegating one of the few genuine 'big' teams and promoting a smaller club is a huge problem for our sport compared to say football where there are a lot of potentially big clubs (but even in football they have giants amongst big clubs).

Frankly its entirely unsurprising that IMG have moved back towards a form of franchising (call it whatever you want, but that's what it is). It was messed up last time, partly because too many compromises were made on how it worked, but I think you'd get similar recommendations from any impartial advisors to the sport. 

What do you do in your employment?

Were you given the opportunity to better yourself with your efforts and the performance levels you obtained, or was your job a dead end street in which no matter how hard you tried and how successful you were against your contemporaries promotion was always denied you?

I bet you wouldn't stay employed in such an environment, and I would guess not one other of the closed SL shop advocates would do either, but you all consider it OK to subject others to suffer from it.

[The Phantom Horseman]

2 minutes ago, RP London said:

its funny if you hadn't selectively quoted my post the answer was right there.. Sheffield wouldn't and shouldn't go up because of the ground. I cannot specifically comment on Batley as I have never been there and don't have access to the data that IMG have requested.

I would say though in terms of the Hetherington quote that I agree with him.. simply because he has had the in-depth conversations with IMG, asked questions and got answers and, I would expect (as its how i would do it working on change management etc) he has been shown modelling to prove the point.  

So you think Sheffield wouldn't go up. I can tell you Batley (and several other likely challengers) would also fail significantly on numerous IMG criteria (ground, fans, finances)  compared to existing SL teams. Bradford would score very low on their ground. Halifax would fall short on many levels compared with existing SL teams, possibly Featherstone too.

Gary Hetherington has said there is only a "very remote chance" of the Championship final winners being denied promotion.So do you agree or disagree with him?

 

[Harry Stottle]

3 hours ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

The new structure means that the team in 12th has to pull their finger out and keep improving to retain their place in SL.

Whilst all the time moving further away from the 13th placed club, I honestly can't see how there will ever be any cross division movements by any clubs Championship/SL.

Just awaiting for the mock gradings to include the not yet mentioned "Potential"

[RP London]

7 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

What do you do in your employment?

Were you given the opportunity to better yourself with your efforts and the performance levels you obtained, or was your job a dead end street in which no matter how hard you tried and how successful you were against your contemporaries promotion was always denied you?

I bet you wouldn't stay employed in such an environment, and I would guess not one other of the closed SL shop advocates would do either, but you all consider it OK to subject others to suffer from it.

that's a strange comparison. As a person they could move employment so you can better yourself. As a company I know we have a ceiling that we cannot pass.. well i say that, we cannot pass it in the factory that we are in because we cannot get the right certification to let us go and pitch to certain businesses.. we would need to move factory (location around housing etc is an issues) and upgrade quite a bit of machinery. I chose not to do that as I don't have the guarantee that to do that gets me x amount more money that would cover the outlay as I am not guaranteed that business. I would rather keep to the level we are at rather than chase turnover which could bankrupt the business if I don't get it 100% right.

[RP London]

10 minutes ago, The Phantom Horseman said:

So you think Sheffield wouldn't go up. I can tell you Batley (and several other likely challengers) would also fail significantly on numerous IMG criteria (ground, fans, finances)  compared to existing SL teams. Bradford would score very low on their ground. Halifax would fall short on many levels compared with existing SL teams, possibly Featherstone too.

Gary Hetherington has said there is only a "very remote chance" of the Championship final winners being denied promotion.So do you agree or disagree with him?

 

why are you asking me a question that I have already answered... again.. you did this last time with the sheffield thing.. 

 

also "you can tell me" but can you? do you have all the relevant information in front of you and the statistical analysis that IMG are going to be using to grade this? if so great, if not then all you have is an opinion. I don't necessarily disagree but its still only an opinion. 

[Saint Toppy]

5 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

What do you do in your employment?

Were you given the opportunity to better yourself with your efforts and the performance levels you obtained, or was your job a dead end street in which no matter how hard you tried and how successful you were against your contemporaries promotion was always denied you?

I bet you wouldn't stay employed in such an environment, and I would guess not one other of the closed SL shop advocates would do either, but you all consider it OK to subject others to suffer from it.

Not quite sure what comparison your trying to make here. There's nothing at all stopping any club from "bettering themselves" or being "denied entry". They all know that if they can achieve a Grade A they can gain entry into SL. The only difference with this IMG system is your place in SL is based on a wide range of factors and not just results on the field.

The main opposition from some clubs appears to be on the basis that they know they'll never be able to achieve a Grade A status without massive change internally.

So instead of saying "we're being barred from entry into SL" the owners of clubs like Keighly should be saying "how can I bring in new investors & partners to grow the club and achieve a Grade A license in the future".

What they're effectively saying is we can't or won't change but we still expect to be able to have an opportunity to play in SL.

[RP London]

6 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Whilst all the time moving further away from the 13th placed club, I honestly can't see how there will ever be any cross division movements by any clubs Championship/SL.

Just awaiting for the mock gradings to include the not yet mentioned "Potential"

Why would it include that.. because they haven't said it would.. so doing that would break the rules they have set. 

You cant see it, yet IMG have obviously spoken to GH and convinced him otherwise, one would think as a professional company, with data.

[sentoffagain2]

2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Whilst all the time moving further away from the 13th placed club, I honestly can't see how there will ever be any cross division movements by any clubs Championship/SL.

Just awaiting for the mock gradings to include the not yet mentioned "Potential"

  It will be like a knife through the heart of ambitious Championship clubs.With no promotion guaranteed by winning the Final the standards will drop further behind the SL clubs .And i think they know that .What made Wakey change their voting intentions at the last minute?.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

Sky promote their sports with those sports and events selling points.

Who gets relegated from The Masters in Augusta?

Who gets the chance to play in it?

Apart from the invitationals, it is made up of those who have been better than their contemporaries in an elimination process.

[RP London]

1 minute ago, Saint Toppy said:

Not quite sure what comparison your trying to make here. There's nothing at all stopping any club from "bettering themselves" or being "denied entry". They all know that if they can achieve a Grade A they can gain entry into SL. The only difference with this IMG system is your place in SL is based on a wide range of factors and not just results on the field.

The main opposition from some clubs appears to be on the basis that they know they'll never be able to achieve a Grade A status without massive change internally.

So instead of saying "we're being barred from entry into SL" the owners of clubs like Keighly should be saying "how can I bring in new investors & partners to grow the club and achieve a Grade A license in the future".

What they're effectively saying is we can't or won't change but we still expect to be able to have an opportunity to play in SL.

Absolutely and in my previous example of us as a business, if someone said "i want to invest 1m into your business" I know exactly the places to do it to get the best return, I just dont have the money so I know what I have to concentrate on at my level to keep us going (Until I can sell this millstone!! sorry did i say that outloud!)

[RP London]

1 minute ago, sentoffagain2 said:

  It will be like a knife through the heart of ambitious Championship clubs.With no promotion guaranteed by winning the Final the standards will drop further behind the SL clubs .And i think they know that .What made Wakey change their voting intentions at the last minute?.

It will be music to the ears of ambitious Championship clubs because they now know their investments (if in the correct places, which they are being pointed towards) will pay off without having to risk it on players who can get injured or have a poor run of form.

[DI Keith Fowler]

2 hours ago, The Phantom Horseman said:

here's Gary Hetherington from an interview published by the Press Association 2 days ago:

“There were one or two areas of concern that I shared with a number of other clubs,” Hetherington told the PA news agency.

“But RFL Commercial and IMG have listened and provided clarity and if any club is still unsure they need to ask themselves why.

“The answer we received on the issue of promotion and relegation was a comprehensive one and it is clear that the chances of that happening [the Championship Grand Final winners being denied promotion] are very remote.”

Do you think Hetherington has "misinterpreted" things?

 

As you yourself have said, he's got it wrong because that isn't the system that's been voted in. Is he misinterpreting things or has he been misinformed is the crux of it, have you got a link to the article?

[Harry Stottle]

6 minutes ago, RP London said:

that's a strange comparison. As a person they could move employment so you can better yourself. As a company I know we have a ceiling that we cannot pass.. well i say that, we cannot pass it in the factory that we are in because we cannot get the right certification to let us go and pitch to certain businesses.. we would need to move factory (location around housing etc is an issues) and upgrade quite a bit of machinery. I chose not to do that as I don't have the guarantee that to do that gets me x amount more money that would cover the outlay as I am not guaranteed that business. I would rather keep to the level we are at rather than chase turnover which could bankrupt the business if I don't get it 100% right.

That's fine, obviously no way will you take a financial punt on the company bettering itself, you are quite happy to mosey along at your own pace and not go any bigger I understand that. BUT that is your choice no one else is making your mind up for you are they, you still have the opportunity, if the Closed shop in whatever form it takes comes back into RL, that door which you as a company decide to not walk through becomes permanently closed to ambitious clubs.

Yes I know all about bettering oneself under this IMG grading system, but be perfectly honest with the vast difference in Central Funding and other earnings potential it would take an Harl Kari moment for any incumbent SL club to get itself demoted.

[sentoffagain2]

6 minutes ago, RP London said:

It will be music to the ears of ambitious Championship clubs because they now know their investments (if in the correct places, which they are being pointed towards) will pay off without having to risk it on players who can get injured or have a poor run of form.

  Championship crowds will drop with no automatic promotion.That means less revenue for the clubs so where will the money come from to put improvements in place.Less money for players so playing standards drop and then with nothing to play for you are down to a hard core of true supporters who would still watch the team in the Conference division.

[Chrispmartha]

28 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

What do you do in your employment?

Were you given the opportunity to better yourself with your efforts and the performance levels you obtained, or was your job a dead end street in which no matter how hard you tried and how successful you were against your contemporaries promotion was always denied you?

I bet you wouldn't stay employed in such an environment, and I would guess not one other of the closed SL shop advocates would do either, but you all consider it OK to subject others to suffer from it.

I own my own company, I would never put a load of money into staff on the hope that we might win a contract.

However if a contract had a strict set of guidelines that I would have to comply with (not just staffing) to get that contract I might be more inclined to invest more into the company as a whole to get it.

Your analogy simply doesn’t work.

[Chrispmartha]

18 minutes ago, sentoffagain2 said:

  It will be like a knife through the heart of ambitious Championship clubs.With no promotion guaranteed by winning the Final the standards will drop further behind the SL clubs .And i think they know that .What made Wakey change their voting intentions at the last minute?.

So why have the ambitious Champ clubs voted for it?

[Gooleboy]

Just remember when we were in the Licencing era, there was a lot of games with nothing at stake.

 

 

 

[Harry Stottle]

23 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Not quite sure what comparison your trying to make here. There's nothing at all stopping any club from "bettering themselves" or being "denied entry". They all know that if they can achieve a Grade A they can gain entry into SL. The only difference with this IMG system is your place in SL is based on a wide range of factors and not just results on the field.

The main opposition from some clubs appears to be on the basis that they know they'll never be able to achieve a Grade A status without massive change internally.

So instead of saying "we're being barred from entry into SL" the owners of clubs like Keighly should be saying "how can I bring in new investors & partners to grow the club and achieve a Grade A license in the future".

What they're effectively saying is we can't or won't change but we still expect to be able to have an opportunity to play in SL.

As I said in another post Toppy, should any incumbant SL club ever be in a position to be demoted, do you not consider they have a huge financial advantage over those below SL level, and it is money that is required to improve gradings, do you not agree?

[RP London]

15 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

That's fine, obviously no way will you take a financial punt on the company bettering itself, you are quite happy to mosey along at your own pace and not go any bigger I understand that. BUT that is your choice no one else is making your mind up for you are they, you still have the opportunity, if the Closed shop in whatever form it takes comes back into RL, that door which you as a company decide to not walk through becomes permanently closed to ambitious clubs.

Yes I know all about bettering oneself under this IMG grading system, but be perfectly honest with the vast difference in Central Funding and other earnings potential it would take an Harl Kari moment for any incumbent SL club to get itself demoted.

actually thats not true, this is a closed shop, I cannot (where i am) get that certification based purely on the location of the factory and what surrounds us. I can stay the same size company but get the certification if I simply sell this place and move... do I have the funds? no.. but I cannot bid or grow this business much bigger than it is without that certification as doors are closed.

I am bettering it by changing the way we work, launching new brands into new sectors etc but the big jump to play with the big boys is blocked by this certification. 

[Harry Stottle]

26 minutes ago, RP London said:

I just dont have the money

Enough said, that is how it will be for Championship clubs.

[Harry Stottle]

1 minute ago, RP London said:

I cannot bid or grow this business much bigger than it is without that certification as doors are closed.

I suspect in the not to distant future change your word certification for promotion and that is how I see our game going.

[RP London]

26 minutes ago, sentoffagain2 said:

  Championship crowds will drop with no automatic promotion.That means less revenue for the clubs so where will the money come from to put improvements in place.Less money for players so playing standards drop and then with nothing to play for you are down to a hard core of true supporters who would still watch the team in the Conference division.

outside investment may well increase as they know that invest it in xyz and you have a place at the table.

I also dont agree that crowds have to drop, that is about encouraging people to come along and that the reason for going doesnt always have to be down to the product on the pitch etc. 

[The Phantom Horseman]

29 minutes ago, RP London said:

why are you asking me a question that I have already answered... again.. you did this last time with the sheffield thing.. 

 

 

Because you have contradicted yourself! You have said you agree with Hetherington...but then you said Sheffield wouldn't and shouldn't go up because of the ground. It appears you don't know enough about other Championship clubs to realise that many of the likely Grand Final contenders will fall short of good IMG rankings for similar reasons.

29 minutes ago, RP London said:

 

also "you can tell me" but can you? do you have all the relevant information in front of you and the statistical analysis that IMG are going to be using to grade this? if so great, if not then all you have is an opinion. I don't necessarily disagree but its still only an opinion. 

I have been to Olympic Legacy Park, Odsal, Mount Pleasant and most other Championship grounds and I know they will score significantly lower than most SL grounds on IMG's scale. I know what attendances Championship clubs get and I know they are significantly lower than most SL teams almost across the board.  It will be the same in most other areas of IMG scoring. So as far as I'm concerned Hetherington's reported comment is simply not going to be true based on the presentations given by IMG.

[sentoffagain2]

20 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

So why have the ambitious Champ clubs voted for it?

  Because it was certain to go through anyway and they put themselves onside.Two clubs pretty equal in points only one place available .Who would get into SL the team that backed the proposals or the team against.

[Chrispmartha]

Just now, sentoffagain2 said:

  Because it was certain to go through anyway and they put themselves onside.Two clubs pretty equal in points only one place available .Who would get into SL the team that backed the proposals or the team against.

It will be irrelevant how they voted.

Maybe just maybe those chairmen of ambitious clubs think this is the best for the sport and their club?