London Broncos & London Skolars

[Guest]

Ealing was tin pot.

Even the additional stand they put on was tin pot.

We will have to agree to disagree.

[OnStrike]

1 hour ago, Magic XIII said:

For me Crystal Palace, Barnet Coptall, The Valley, The Stoop, Griffin Park, Plough Lane, Trailfinders, The Hive .... plus home games at Esher RU, Adams Park, Crawley, Kingstonians, Gillingham, Orient (I think there is more) ..... and on the road games., and of course Wembley in '99

My God...is it any wonder it hasn't really worked

[bromleybulldog]

Add in Fulham, Chelsea (V Cardiff), Chiswick, Hendon, and probably more. Waiting for them to turn up in Bromley.

[OriginalMrC]

1 hour ago, Magic XIII said:

For me Crystal Palace, Barnet Coptall, The Valley, The Stoop, Griffin Park, Plough Lane, Trailfinders, The Hive .... plus home games at Esher RU, Adams Park, Crawley, Kingstonians, Gillingham, Orient (I think there is more) ..... and on the road games., and of course Wembley in '99

Wow the only place you haven't seen them play is the moon. If anyone from Broncos is reading this it's not a suggestion (though probably more suitable than Ebbsfleet!) 

[Click]

1 hour ago, westlondonfan said:

1. Ealing was a good place to walk round the pitch and mix, particularly on a sunny day.

2. The food and the beer was better there.

3. We achieved promotion on the pitch while we were there.

1. I'm not sure how you could think it was a good place to walk around the pitch and mix - I assume you had a season ticket, as if you didn't then you weren't allowed to mix much.

2. I cannot compare food and drink to Wimbledon, as I haven't been - But the food was never particularly good at Ealing.

3. Ok.. I don't think that had anything to do with the ground we played at at the time. 

4. Ealing Trailfinders was an awful ground with awful views for 80% of the people that attended games, if you were a ST in one of the what, 4/5 banks of seats in the "stand" then you were fine, if you weren't then you had obstructed views of most of the pitch. They then build a brand new stand to help capacity, but that just ends up as an Away supporters stand so it was pretty awful having to sit in it as a home supporter. 

I am not sure how anyone could really like Ealing other than if you happened to live closer to it then our other grounds, so travelling was easier (certainly isn't easy for me) or you have just come to the conclusion that it is our level, which is fine, but I don't see much need for us as a semi-pro Championship side playing out of it.

 

[Click]

1 hour ago, westlondonfan said:

1. Ealing was a good place to walk round the pitch and mix, particularly on a sunny day.

2. The food and the beer was better there.

3. We achieved promotion on the pitch while we were there.

1. I'm not sure how you could think it was a good place to walk around the pitch and mix - I assume you had a season ticket, as if you didn't then you weren't allowed to mix much.

2. I cannot compare food and drink to Wimbledon, as I haven't been - But the food was never particularly good at Ealing.

3. Ok.. I don't think that had anything to do with the ground we played at at the time. 

4. Ealing Trailfinders was an awful ground with awful views for 80% of the people that attended games, if you were a ST in one of the what, 4/5 banks of seats in the "stand" then you were fine, if you weren't then you had obstructed views of most of the pitch. They then build a brand new stand to help capacity, but that just ends up as an Away supporters stand so it was pretty awful having to sit in it as a home supporter. 

I am not sure how anyone could really like Ealing other than if you happened to live closer to it then our other grounds, so travelling was easier (certainly isn't easy for me) or you have just come to the conclusion that it is our level, which is fine, but I don't see much need for us as a semi-pro Championship side playing out of it.

 

[bbfaz]

On 26/04/2023 at 22:31, IM2 said:

I was involved with Skolars for 25 years and I dont recognise this at all. first up I cant remember anytime the club tried to poach a cohort from greenwich. also I pushed coaches for years to get out and scout & no one ever did eventhough I personally always thought there was tons of talent out there in the amateur game. so I cant refute your specific claims but its something I dont recognise and I was around the club longer than anyone. 

I'm loathed to go into specifics because I don't make what is essentially a small time squabble into some awful thing where my former chairman is getting abusive phone calls.  However, there were a group of then-young players who followed Aussie Dave Roberts from Greenwich to Skolars when he moved over.  A lot of those players stayed around Skolars and then left the game altogether.

When we started our new club in 2017, a number of players from Greenwich came to play for us at South London and there were people from Skolars talking to those players, trying to get them to leave us and go to Skolars.  I just looked at the Skolars squad page and there's our former captain and one of the players that went with him.  We didn't own him, he played semi-pro before he played for us and has known Joe for years.  We previously lost our stand off, who looks better than he is, to a development opportunity with Skolars A.

I'd prefer if people didn't go off and try to cause issues about this.  We've moved on, the pandemic has claimed a lot of clubs, us included.  However, a big part of why is because of how other clubs relate to each other and how the RFL governs the game, or how it doesn't govern the game more like.

[bbfaz]

On 27/04/2023 at 14:23, Archie Gordon said:

We have an area of the country with around 10 community clubs sitting underneath a couple of semi-pro clubs, one of which runs an RFL-accredited academy. The same area generates strong TV viewer numbers and delivers strong attendances for 'event' RL. It has different demographics to any other RL stronghold in the country. 

But there is no plan to exploit any of this.

I will not claim to be an expert.  In saying that, I doubt few others have founded two clubs in the last 10 years and been on the ground floor with another, done the work with getting venues, developing a player base and dealing with the RFL.  Up until the pandemic, I would've described my work in Rugby League as reasonably successful.

However, my chairman at one of the clubs has basically walked away from Rugby League.  He says that the RFL doesn't support the game in the South of England. They also play favourites really badly.  One of our ex-players said that a lot of the admins from his previous clubs had left the game due to cronyism.  The same people always seem to get the limited amount of grants going around and the same people always influence the RFL to see things their way.  If your face doesn't fit, you really will never get the rub of the green, no matter how hard you politick.

There's no real plan to expand the playing base.  Every season, they forced better teams into higher leagues so Hammersmith, Chargers and, later, Wests to play against and it caused those teams to suffer somewhat.  Elmbridge fell back on having their own ground and a decent junior base.  Brixton are RFL's pet project and are one of the odd teams that do get help.  However, what happened to Guildford/Surrey?  Some of it is player commitment but some of it is because there's no help and no teams to play.  One team goes under and that's a fifth to a quarter of your season gone.

I miss the lads and running the club but dealing with the RFL was like pulling teeth and nearly caused me to quit the game until I actually did quit.  The current clubs and competition guy is good and there will always be some well-intentioned person trying to fan the dying embers before leaving for less-frustrating climes but otherwise the RFL has this collection of "survivors", disingenuous people who I don't care for.

Somebody else said, there should be 50 clubs.  To my mind, it's 12-15 clubs in Greater London and then another 20-25 across the Home Counties.  Problem is, we're in a numbers crisis right now across amateur sport.  Union clubs that once had 10 teams and, pre-pandemic, had six senior teams now have two.  Even if it were lab conditions and everything was hunky dory, everybody is renting facilities.  Union is still hostile or place unrealistic expectations.  Players are knackered after League and don't want to go out on the p*** so they're not getting these big bar takes.

The RFL don't do enough but, also, it would be very hard even if they did.  Clubs from an earlier generation were getting grants and there was more sponsorship around.  That was reduced and assigned just to junior clubs and they hired good academy players as Development Officers, who ran junior clubs and even got it into the schools.  However, looking back, it seemed a wee bit scammy, given there were clubs that existed on paper but never played games.  All the Sport England money dried up in 2012 and it's all been self-funding.  I think the schools league fell apart too.

So it's not that they didn't try, it's that it required grant money they don't have.  However, if the money ever comes back, I'll put my hand up to be a development officer.  Sounds a great gig.

[Hemel Rugby League]

There are many issues relating to RL in 'London'

I was at Craven Cottage in 1980 for that iconic first match and have been involved in the sport ever since in the South

I'm only too aware of the history of London's only pro club and its various owners

The single biggest issue in London, though, has been the management of the 27 full-time RL  community development officers in London between 2008-2012 ( employed by funding from Sport England which was administered by the RFL) who delivered absolutely zero legacy.

If IMG were to throw another 27 RL development officers into London would anything change?

Edited April 28, 2023 by Hemel Rugby League

[bbfaz]

1 hour ago, Hemel Rugby League said:

There are many issues relating to RL in 'London'

I was at Craven Cottage in 1980 for that iconic first match and have been involved in the sport ever since in the South

I'm only too aware of the history of London's only pro club and its various owners

The single biggest issue in London, though, has been the management of the 27 full-time RL  community development officers in London between 2008-2012 ( employed by funding from Sport England which was administered by the RFL) who delivered absolutely zero legacy.

If IMG were to throw another 27 RL development officers into London would anything change?

This was discussed before on this forum.  I believe a chunk of the answer was that Sport England cared only about participation numbers.  It didn't care about creating clubs with roots or investing in facilities the sport could use, it was about getting kids into six week camps and just seeing as many kids as possible.  It was never meant to deliver legacy, such were the metrics used to determine success.

I don't think it helped that a number of people involved were utter chancers.  That sounds bad but I knew a few of the development officers and I wouldn't trust any of them with my wallet.  Perhaps it was a few bad eggs...

Edited April 28, 2023 by bbfaz

[Archie Gordon]

I wasn't involved in the community game until about 5 years ago and so missed 2008-2012. But, in my mind, DOs can't really leave a legacy other than increased playing numbers can they? They are pretty much recruiters and staff to deliver things in the here-and-now. And their impact has a short half life once they're gone. To be clear, I'd like there to be 27 of them now but I don't see them as infrastructure builders particularly. Or a good investment *on their own*.

The main points above are correct - almost all the community clubs (and the semi-pro clubs!) are renters with no tangible assets, dependent almost entirely on the energy and enthusiasm of volunteers. Volunteers leave - it is wearisome and often unrewarding. I have a lot of sympathy for those running Hemel in trying times and also those clubs that have shone brightly then gone - like the Silverbacks.

I don't really recognise the characterisation of RFL people as a problem but do understand the view that they are pretty passive about the London & SE game. But nor do they have the £££ to push things on - in London or anywhere.

All that said, I think they do have enough £££ to investigate and report on what might be done to grow the game in London in a sustainable way - i.e. undertake some research and deliver a London strategy. It would then need investment but that investment is second order to actually having some kind of plan. IMG made some noises about London but, increasingly, they seem like throwaway comments rather than something they're going to take an actual interest in. So we're likely to be on our own for a while longer, continuing with a hand-to-mouth existence.

[OnStrike]

Some very thoughtful posts on here.

Maybe it's impossible now due to the price of land etc but surely a top priority should have been a base. A pitch (or two and maybe some 4g pitches to hire out for revenue), a small stand, a bar, a function room, an office, a couple of changing rooms. Not talking about a big stadium ot anything, just a permanent base where games can be played, training can take place and rugby league in London can generally call home.

The GAA in London, for example, has McGovern Park in Ruislip where every weekend there will be games, from under age, to senior clubs to county games. There's a bar, a function room etc.

Would this be possible today? Doesn't seem to be asking too much. Obviously would have been much easier if the RFL had done it years ago when land would have been more affordable.

Just seems that from what others have said above, without a base, ALL success in London is going to be temporary and transient as it relies on people who can't be around for ever and uses the grounds of other institutions that can move people on (for any number of reasons) whenever it suits them.

[Archie Gordon]

8 minutes ago, OnStrike said:

...

Maybe it's impossible now due to the price of land etc but surely a top priority should have been a base. A pitch (or two and maybe some 4g pitches to hire out for revenue), a small stand, a bar, a function room, an office, a couple of changing rooms. Not talking about a big stadium ot anything, just a permanent base where games can be played, training can take place and rugby league in London can generally call home.

...

Would this be possible today? 

...

The first paragraph is the Hemel model. Thank goodness for their foresight. But not replicated elsewhere.

I'm not sure it's possible today. I think it could have been possible to agree something longer-term at Ealing with the Broncos and RFL - not ownership obviously, but some medium-term security of tenure. New River could be invested in, too - but maybe that moment has gone.

There are no other options (are there?).

[OnStrike]

18 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

 

There are no other options (are there?).

From the posts above from people with huge amounts of experience, there doesn't seem to be, no. 

[zylya]

1 hour ago, OnStrike said:

Some very thoughtful posts on here.

Maybe it's impossible now due to the price of land etc but surely a top priority should have been a base. A pitch (or two and maybe some 4g pitches to hire out for revenue), a small stand, a bar, a function room, an office, a couple of changing rooms. Not talking about a big stadium ot anything, just a permanent base where games can be played, training can take place and rugby league in London can generally call home.

The GAA in London, for example, has McGovern Park in Ruislip where every weekend there will be games, from under age, to senior clubs to county games. There's a bar, a function room etc.

Would this be possible today? Doesn't seem to be asking too much. Obviously would have been much easier if the RFL had done it years ago when land would have been more affordable.

Just seems that from what others have said above, without a base, ALL success in London is going to be temporary and transient as it relies on people who can't be around for ever and uses the grounds of other institutions that can move people on (for any number of reasons) whenever it suits them.

Agree with this and the follow up post that it wouldn't be easy to find anything in London.

Think both Hemel and New River are decent options for a base - I know that Hemel is being used for a few community things - e.g. some college & university activity in the south.

They also use the Army stadium in Aldershot for some of the finals etc.

As someone who's had some experience being involved with a community club in the South, one thing I will say is that you're very "on your own" about things. While the RFL try to be helpful, the reality is that they're under-resourced for staff and finances. So although there are some grants here and there - and they've definitely been useful at the time - the reality is that it's going to be up to the people who start clubs to build those foundations.

One thing that the RFL as NGB could do to assist that is to develop a proper Southern strategy. 27 Development Officers in London would definitely boost playing numbers, but what we need is DOs whose job is also around infrastructure and not just coaching. A strategy for the South would be targeting areas to ensure that 4-6 clubs are starting within a particular region and trying to ensure that there are the facilities to support. That might mean picking a county and developing a handful of teams across that county all at the same time, and working to ensure a lease on a pitch somewhere in that county. E.g. if you created 6 teams in Hampshire (using Hants because there aren't any teams there at the moment) then you could create a Hampshire League, plus find a venue that you could lease/licence with at least one pitch, floodlights and clubhouse/bar area. All 6 teams, in their infancy, could play games at the central venue - this would allow new teams to train in less conventional spaces - parks, schools, smaller AGP etc without needing the full 110m x 70m space plus posts to stay up over the summer. This would reduce the reliance on Rugby Union clubs, but also make administration easier. A fictional Development Officer for this Hampshire League would then have the role of embedding schools pathways etc to support recruitment into senior teams etc and to help clubs develop themselves in terms of finding their own regular facilities once they're established.

Just using Hampshire as an example - you could do the same thing in a part of London or any region that makes sense in the South. Even better, because you're approaching it fresh, you wouldn't have to be bound by traditional county lines like rugby union still is and football used to be until fairly recently. Choose locations that have great transport links between each other etc.

[bbfaz]

There are still plenty of places across London with sports facilities.  If you have deep enough pockets, you could buy a sports ground and that would sort the training base problem.  When the LDA was running and all their development sites were available, I found a pretty decent site in Mottingham, which is on the border of Bromley and Greenwich boroughs.

However, the RFL has never been interested in getting involved, Skolars are skint and the Broncos have always had all the vision of Mr Magoo. It's harder now for various reasons.  Partly because of lack of land, partly because some councils are loosening up regulations on building on metropolitan open land.  I thought I'd found the perfect place in Beckenham many years ago but somebody else had designs on it and it was sold for development.  Very sensibly, Crystal Palace bought up a lot of the land around there and have two sites across the road from each other.

Millwall are moving to a 50-acre site West Kingsdown in Kent, down near Brand's Hatch, because the demands on a training ground for a football club are just ridiculous now.  However, if non-league Cray Wanderers can get a project together and get planning permission for a site - still delayed by financing - then what's the excuse for the RFL or Broncos.

[bbfaz]

2 hours ago, zylya said:

A strategy for the South would be targeting areas to ensure that 4-6 clubs are starting within a particular region and trying to ensure that there are the facilities to support. That might mean picking a county and developing a handful of teams across that county all at the same time, and working to ensure a lease on a pitch somewhere in that county. E.g. if you created 6 teams in Hampshire (using Hants because there aren't any teams there at the moment) then you could create a Hampshire League, plus find a venue that you could lease/licence with at least one pitch, floodlights and clubhouse/bar area. All 6 teams, in their infancy, could play games at the central venue - this would allow new teams to train in less conventional spaces - parks, schools, smaller AGP etc without needing the full 110m x 70m space plus posts to stay up over the summer. This would reduce the reliance on Rugby Union clubs, but also make administration easier.

I suggested something very similar to this to the Madrid Rugby League people back in 2014.  There are rugby pitches but they're all union.  If there was one place that was ours, we could get everybody playing on that one site and generating money for that site.  Play our own season, away from the whims of everybody else.  You don't even need a clubhouse per se because there's always a local bar that will want the business.

Like anything, you need money.

[Henson Park Old Firm]

https://www.seriousaboutrl.com/mp-says-super-league-needs-this-club-73771/

[bbfaz]

Best and the brightest.  No wonder the country is in the toilet.

[Man of Kent]

20 hours ago, bbfaz said:

There are still plenty of places across London with sports facilities.  If you have deep enough pockets, you could buy a sports ground and that would sort the training base problem. 

There are indeed. Brixton Bulls are looking into it.

If anyone ever manages to secure land and build a clubhouse, it would be a huge boost for the amateur game in south London and surrounding area.

London RL needs its own base. Amateurs even more than the pros.
 

[EssexRL]

On 30/04/2023 at 07:46, Man of Kent said:

London RL needs its own base. Amateurs even more than the pros.
 

This would seem like a basic first step...surely all those involved in the game could get together and agree this?

[bbfaz]

1 hour ago, EssexRL said:

This would seem like a basic first step...surely all those involved in the game could get together and agree this?

I went to Maidenhead RFC a few years ago for a South West/South East RL under-18 representative fixture and, for my money, they have the perfect setup.  4G pitch with a stand right by the side.  Built into that stand is a gym, numerous bars, offices and function rooms.  As a club, if you had the opportunity to get into that facility, the last thing you would do is share it.  I know the amateur clubs of London and the South East personally.  Nobody would share, no matter how good it would be for the game.

Plus, we've been here before. The RFL have come down to London with big ideas and had their pants pulled down every single time.  It's sad, I hate it but it's true.

 

[IM2]

On 28/04/2023 at 19:32, bbfaz said:

I'm loathed to go into specifics because I don't make what is essentially a small time squabble into some awful thing where my former chairman is getting abusive phone calls.  However, there were a group of then-young players who followed Aussie Dave Roberts from Greenwich to Skolars when he moved over.  A lot of those players stayed around Skolars and then left the game altogether.

When we started our new club in 2017, a number of players from Greenwich came to play for us at South London and there were people from Skolars talking to those players, trying to get them to leave us and go to Skolars.  I just looked at the Skolars squad page and there's our former captain and one of the players that went with him.  We didn't own him, he played semi-pro before he played for us and has known Joe for years.  We previously lost our stand off, who looks better than he is, to a development opportunity with Skolars A.

I'd prefer if people didn't go off and try to cause issues about this.  We've moved on, the pandemic has claimed a lot of clubs, us included.  However, a big part of why is because of how other clubs relate to each other and how the RFL governs the game, or how it doesn't govern the game more like.

that's fair enough. I do tho think one thing Skolars have missed over the years is offering that pyramid for senior amateur players. I think junior ones coming out of London academy is fine and can go to the Champ or L1. as Basset shows there is many players who could have stepped up to L1 and then more over the years. however any relationship has to be one that benefits both clubs and not just take. sorry you had that experience 

[Guest]

Was talking to an AFC Wimbledon friend this afternoon and he was suggesting that Broncos want out of PL with potentially London Irish moving in.

Apparently PL has not met expectations - whatever that means.

Make of that what you will.

[bbfaz]

10 minutes ago, Leonard said:

Was talking to an AFC Wimbledon friend this afternoon and he was suggesting that Broncos want out of PL with potentially London Irish moving in.

Apparently PL has not met expectations - whatever that means.

Make of that what you will.

Well, if they thought that it would turn things around then they are exceptionally naïve.  Surely they realise they've run off all their fans, even the hardcore anorak types who supported them on their tour of London.

Had Plough Lane been in place back in 2012, it would've been perfect.  Relaunch under the Broncos name in a way more convenient stadium.  If I still lived in SE London, it would be a tram ride away and I wouldn't be able to find a single person to accompany me.  However, what marketing is being done?

IMO, they need a whole new club with a whole new brand in a stadium where they are the primary tenant and be prepared to lose money forever.