Morgan Knowles faces ban...you know the rest...

[Dunbar]

13 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

There was a love in for Knowles prior to the World Cup on these pages of just how good he is on the World stage, some were saying he is the best No 13 on the planet, I Just didn't get it, I wouldn't say he is the best 13 over here, and I think it was confirmed when comparing him to Victor Radley in the WC who is light years ahead of him in all aspects of the game.

Morgan Knowles is an excellent player and has proven that over serveral years.

Just the kind of player I would have loved to have been in the team when I was playing, tough as nails and all effort.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

Morgan Knowles is an excellent player and has proven that over serveral years.

Just the kind of player I would have loved to have been in the team when I was playing, tough as nails and all effort.

I didn't say he wasn't a good player, I just don't think he reaches the level some put him at.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Harry Stottle

[GeordieSaint]

30 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I didn't say he wasn't a good player, I just don't think he reaches the level some put him at.

Knowles has been as important to this dominant Saints side over the last 4yrs as Lomax and Roby. Walmsley may take all the plaudits for our pack, but we’ve also been much better when Knowles has been on the park. He’s a leader. A top quality SL player. 

Edited March 22, 2023 by GeordieSaint

[Tippytoe]

4 hours ago, Chrispmartha said:

Cameron Smith is up there aswell

Yes he is he seems to becoming the cornerstone of the pack.

[Oxford]

I think for authenticity and more sort of clicky click bait we should only return to this subject when it says

Morgan Knowles doesn't face ban... surprise!

[Tippytoe]

24 minutes ago, Oxford said:

I think for authenticity and more sort of clicky click bait we should only return to this subject when it says

Morgan Knowles doesn't face ban... surprise!

First person to put on a half nelson live on a Saturday afternoon since big daddy on world of sport.

[Harry Stottle]

7 hours ago, Chrispmartha said:

Cameron Smith is up there aswell

Far higher in my opinion than Morgan Smities. 

[arcticchris]

23 hours ago, Josef K said:

I am glad Saints didn’t get the ban overturned, Knowles has become a liability and i honestly can’t remember the last time he strung a few good games together. Wellens would never think of dropping him because it’s “Morgan Knowles”, but i think it would give him a kick up the backside he needs because he’s been rubbish.
Wingfield is more promising as a SR or LF, id stick Knowles in the reserves if they are still around. 

Knowles got shown up badly by Victor Radley about what a modern day 13 needs to offer 

[GeordieSaint]

34 minutes ago, arcticchris said:

Knowles got shown up badly by Victor Radley about what a modern day 13 needs to offer 

Really? Knowles played much fewer minutes as Wane preferred Radley. So you can’t compare like for like. That said, when Knowles went up against Yeo in the WCC, he more than held his own and came away with a winner’s medal.

For the record, all three in my opinion are excellent loose forwards, each with individual styles. Any team would lucky to have one of them.

[phiggins]

Wellens has developed an annoying habit, where he uses the outcomes of match review panels as a stick to beat referees with. While at the same time, appealing the outcome of the MRP, if it doesn't suit him.

[dkw]

2 hours ago, phiggins said:

Wellens has developed an annoying habit, where he uses the outcomes of match review panels as a stick to beat referees with. While at the same time, appealing the outcome of the MRP, if it doesn't suit him.

Where has he done this? I dont remember him using it to beat refs.

[phiggins]

22 hours ago, dkw said:

Where has he done this? I dont remember him using it to beat refs.

Don't have the links to hand, but after the Leigh game, he decided to write to Super League refs when the MRP didn't charge Lees, who had been sin binned. Not sure what his letter was going to say "don't sin bin a player unless you're certain the MRP will charge the player"? Then, last week, he was complaining about how they should've had an 8 point try, when an opponent was charged by the MRP.

Not entirely sure what he wants the refs to do, aside from call games as they see them (still think the Lees yellow was correct from what I saw in real time). But then of course, the conclusions of the MRP aren't so bullet proof when they have a player banned, as they then seek to appeal it.

Just something that is becoming a bug bear of mine. It would irritate me if Lam were to come out and say the same stuff. But don't recall him or Powell writing letters when neither sin binned player were charged after the Leigh - Warrington game.

[Saint Toppy]

44 minutes ago, phiggins said:

 

Just something that is becoming a bug bear of mine. It would irritate me if Lam were to come out and say the same stuff. But don't recall him or Powell writing letters when neither sin binned player were charged after the Leigh - Warrington game.

Of course you dont - why follow the official channels in raising concerns with the RFL when the likes of Degsy & Powell can just whine direct to the media or post on Social Media when they don't like a decision against their team by an official 

[phiggins]

18 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Of course you dont - why follow the official channels in raising concerns with the RFL when the likes of Degsy & Powell can just whine direct to the media or post on Social Media when they don't like a decision against their team by an official 

Don't recall them doing that either, in this instance.

[dkw]

1 hour ago, phiggins said:

Don't have the links to hand, but after the Leigh game, he decided to write to Super League refs when the MRP didn't charge Lees, who had been sin binned. Not sure what his letter was going to say "don't sin bin a player unless you're certain the MRP will charge the player"? Then, last week, he was complaining about how they should've had an 8 point try, when an opponent was charged by the MRP.

Not entirely sure what he wants the refs to do, aside from call games as they see them (still think the Lees yellow was correct from what I saw in real time). But then of course, the conclusions of the MRP aren't so bullet proof when they have a player banned, as they then seek to appeal it.

Just something that is becoming a bug bear of mine. It would irritate me if Lam were to come out and say the same stuff. But don't recall him or Powell writing letters when neither sin binned player were charged after the Leigh - Warrington game.

Be useful if you could show some evidence of this happening, because other than a standard moan from a defeated coach its nowhere near as bad as you made out. Especially considering he was bang on about he non 8 point try.

[Saint Toppy]

1 hour ago, phiggins said:

Don't have the links to hand, but after the Leigh game, he decided to write to Super League refs when the MRP didn't charge Lees, who had been sin binned. Not sure what his letter was going to say "don't sin bin a player unless you're certain the MRP will charge the player"? Then, last week, he was complaining about how they should've had an 8 point try, when an opponent was charged by the MRP.

Not entirely sure what he wants the refs to do, aside from call games as they see them (still think the Lees yellow was correct from what I saw in real time). But then of course, the conclusions of the MRP aren't so bullet proof when they have a player banned, as they then seek to appeal it.

 

Coaches & clubs are told that if they have concerns or queries regarding officials then the correct process is to contact the RFL which is exactly what Wellens did via the letter.

He, along with any other coach or club, is entitled to raise questions regarding decisions made by officials that they believe affected the outcome of games, particularly when later reviews have shown those decisions to have been incorrect.

In the Leigh game Saints had a player sent to the sin-bin, during which time Leigh scored several try's, a sin-bin that was later proven to have not been an illegal tackle at all.  The week before a Leeds player committed an illegal shoulder charge that the Ref didn't penalise, which would have resulted in a penalty to Saints in front of the sticks. In the Hull game Litten was shown to have committed an offence on Benison in the act of scoring, which in line with the rules shoulld have resulted in an '8 point try'. In both first 2 instances the Ref's had the ability to ask for help from the VR at the time as play was stopped, and on both occasions the Ref didn't use that technology and got it wrong. In the last one it was viewed by the 3rd official but not penalised at the time.

Wellens is perfectly entitled to ask questions as to why the Refs and Video refs made the decisions they did and why they didn't use the help & technology that was available to them. He's also perfectly entitled to ask for greater levels of consistency from the officials.

 

[redjonn]

1 hour ago, Saint Toppy said:

Of course you dont - why follow the official channels in raising concerns with the RFL when the likes of Degsy & Powell can just whine direct to the media or post on Social Media when they don't like a decision against their team by an official 

doesn't help the sport with the coaches whining against the ref's.

Ref's are individuals and one can expect inconsistencies no matter how hard they try. They have a very short time to make decisions. Unless we have some sort of review on lots of incidents by a VR, which would kill the game.

The review panel has more time to consider and their we should expect more consistency.

I find nowadays more verbal abuse towards ref's than ever, coaches don't help that situation.  Having said that I also find more verbal abuse in general at games and I think the disgruntlement against ref's is helping grow that.   

For me its putting me off attending.

[redjonn]

3 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Coaches & clubs are told that if they have concerns or queries regarding officials then the correct process is to contact the RFL which is exactly what Wellens did via the letter.

He, along with any other coach or club, is entitled to raise questions regarding decisions made by officials that they believe affected the outcome of games, particularly when later reviews have shown those decisions to have been incorrect.

In the Leigh game Saints had a player sent to the sin-bin, during which time Leigh scored several try's, a sin-bin that was later proven to have not been an illegal tackle at all.  The week before a Leeds player committed an illegal shoulder charge that the Ref didn't penalise, which would have resulted in a penalty to Saints in front of the sticks. In the Hull game Litten was shown to have committed an offence on Benison in the act of scoring, which in line with the rules shoulld have resulted in an '8 point try'. In both first 2 instances the Ref's had the ability to ask for help from the VR at the time as play was stopped, and on both occasions the Ref didn't use that technology and got it wrong. In the last one it was viewed by the 3rd official but not penalised at the time.

Wellens is perfectly entitled to ask questions as to why the Refs and Video refs made the decisions they did and why they didn't use the help & technology that was available to them. He's also perfectly entitled to ask for greater levels of consistency from the officials.

 

I tend to agree if going through the official channels as distinct from bleating on air. 

I understand the comment on using VR/technology but then many want ref's to take responsibility. If he is uncertain I would expect him to use VR, if he is certain in his own mind then I'm fine he doesn't.  I don't want a game that always goes to VR.

[Saint Toppy]

6 minutes ago, redjonn said:

I tend to agree if going through the official channels as distinct from bleating on air. 

I understand the comment on using VR/technology but then many want ref's to take responsibility. If he is uncertain I would expect him to use VR, if he is certain in his own mind then I'm fine he doesn't.  I don't want a game that always goes to VR.

As I understand it the VR can only be used if the play has been stopped, the Ref can't just arbiterily stop a game to review a decision to see if it was the right one or not.

I think the main points of concern that Wellens raised were that on all those occasions the play had already been stopped and the Ref had the use of that help & technology but chose not to use it, and ultimately his decisions were proved to be wrong. And in making those wrong decisions it affected the outcome of the games.

[phiggins]

38 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Coaches & clubs are told that if they have concerns or queries regarding officials then the correct process is to contact the RFL which is exactly what Wellens did via the letter.

He, along with any other coach or club, is entitled to raise questions regarding decisions made by officials that they believe affected the outcome of games, particularly when later reviews have shown those decisions to have been incorrect.

In the Leigh game Saints had a player sent to the sin-bin, during which time Leigh scored several try's, a sin-bin that was later proven to have not been an illegal tackle at all.  The week before a Leeds player committed an illegal shoulder charge that the Ref didn't penalise, which would have resulted in a penalty to Saints in front of the sticks. In the Hull game Litten was shown to have committed an offence on Benison in the act of scoring, which in line with the rules shoulld have resulted in an '8 point try'. In both first 2 instances the Ref's had the ability to ask for help from the VR at the time as play was stopped, and on both occasions the Ref didn't use that technology and got it wrong. In the last one it was viewed by the 3rd official but not penalised at the time.

Wellens is perfectly entitled to ask questions as to why the Refs and Video refs made the decisions they did and why they didn't use the help & technology that was available to them. He's also perfectly entitled to ask for greater levels of consistency from the officials.

 

Referees have to make their decisions there and then. There would be just as much frustration if all they did was put things on report. This is what Wellens had to say after the Leigh match, "The way he chases his kick is everything you want in a player so I find it hard to be too critical in that sense because he wanted to try to influence the result, but again, there is a line and the line was crossed with Leesy tonight and we paid the price." (https://www.loverugbyleague.com/post/paul-wellens-st-helens-leigh) Also, there was no video ref at the Leigh game. The game at Huddersfield was the televised game that night.

To then write a letter of concern days later, after the MRP (and not sure if that came to any conclusion, or just didn't have a conclusive angle to go off), when he didn't see it differently to the ref, at the time of the decision being made, just doesn't seem right in my opinion.

Of course, if he wants everyone to perform perfectly, then he can ask why players dropped off a tackle on Hardaker, or missed the kick that was then picked up by Shorrocks for the last try.

[redjonn]

28 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

As I understand it the VR can only be used if the play has been stopped, the Ref can't just arbiterily stop a game to review a decision to see if it was the right one or not.

I think the main points of concern that Wellens raised were that on all those occasions the play had already been stopped and the Ref had the use of that help & technology but chose not to use it, and ultimately his decisions were proved to be wrong. And in making those wrong decisions it affected the outcome of the games.

understood.  For me I am assuming the ref was certain in his own mind.  Yep  he may get it wrong or not but what your saying is that for any incident when play is stopped to ensure he is correct in his thinking he should check with VR.  

[phiggins]

1 hour ago, dkw said:

Be useful if you could show some evidence of this happening, because other than a standard moan from a defeated coach its nowhere near as bad as you made out. Especially considering he was bang on about he non 8 point try.

Not sure how bad I'm making it out to be. Just describing it as annoying. Particularly in the instance where in real time, he didn't have any complaints about the decision, but then complained days later.

[arcticchris]

On 22/03/2023 at 22:07, GeordieSaint said:

Really? Knowles played much fewer minutes as Wane preferred Radley. So you can’t compare like for like. That said, when Knowles went up against Yeo in the WCC, he more than held his own and came away with a winner’s medal.

For the record, all three in my opinion are excellent loose forwards, each with individual styles. Any team would lucky to have one of them.

And in those minutes he did very little to suggest that he deserved more game time in the tournament 

[Davo5]

On 24/03/2023 at 21:45, Saint Toppy said:

Of course you dont - why follow the official channels in raising concerns with the RFL when the likes of Degsy & Powell can just whine direct to the media or post on Social Media when they don't like a decision against their team by an official 

Erm didn’t McManus show himself,your club & the sport up on social media after a certain challenge cup defeat