Ed Sheeran New York Trial

[ivans82]

Listening to both songs , to me sound nothing alike .Theres a little snapshot on the BBC website where a man is playing them both on a piano , but has to change key to even make them match .There is an argument as to whether these chords are the "building blocks" of rock n roll  and if so who was the first to play them ...........this trial is a very far fetched argument when other songs  are much more alike e.g. St Elmos Fire by John Parr and Boys of Summer by Don Henley , which in essence are very much the same song .

[Bedford Roughyed]

On 28/04/2023 at 13:39, ivans82 said:

Listening to both songs , to me sound nothing alike .Theres a little snapshot on the BBC website where a man is playing them both on a piano , but has to change key to even make them match .There is an argument as to whether these chords are the "building blocks" of rock n roll  and if so who was the first to play them ...........this trial is a very far fetched argument when other songs  are much more alike e.g. St Elmos Fire by John Parr and Boys of Summer by Don Henley , which in essence are very much the same song .

I think it's notable that it's the artists estate that is suing.  If he was still alive I doubt Marvin Gaye would have batted an eyelid.  

[DI Keith Fowler]

1 hour ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

I think it's notable that it's the artists estate that is suing.  If he was still alive I doubt Marvin Gaye would have batted an eyelid.  

Exactly, I mean no offence but imagine wanting to stake a claim to an Ed Sheeran song.

[tim2]

I'm no fan of Ed Sheeran's music - it's a bit bland and there are equally good if not better singer-songwriters around who haven't got the drive for fame that he has.

But this lawsuit is ridiculous - a couple of similar chords in a different key doth not plagiarism make.

[Futtocks]

On 28/04/2023 at 13:39, ivans82 said:

Listening to both songs , to me sound nothing alike .Theres a little snapshot on the BBC website where a man is playing them both on a piano , but has to change key to even make them match .There is an argument as to whether these chords are the "building blocks" of rock n roll  and if so who was the first to play them ...........this trial is a very far fetched argument when other songs  are much more alike e.g. St Elmos Fire by John Parr and Boys of Summer by Don Henley , which in essence are very much the same song .

Not that similar to my ears. Rhythm, key changes, chord progressions etc. don't match up well.

But if the Righteous Brothers had had a word with The Clash about Little Latin Lupe Lu/Should I stay or should I go?, they'd certainly have been in with a shout. Or the Kinks and the Doors with All Day and all of the Night/Hello I love you.

[ivans82]

This is why i started the thread really , no fan of Ed Sheeran myself but as some of you have pointed out similarities in music are all over the place , and this case seems a little shabby .

[Wolford6]

I'm not following the trial, but I was with friends and had to telly-watch his set at Glastonbury.

I'm hoping that ( a ) he's found guilty and ( b ) you can get a long prison sentence for it.

 

[JohnM]

Next up. A famous decomposer makes a come-Bach to sue Procol Harum.

[The Masked Poster]

The Verve had to pay out all royalties from Bitter Sweet Symphony due to using the classical version of the Stones "the last time". 

Also George Harrison was sued by the writers of "he's so fine". 

[tonyXIII]

There's a guy on YouTube who has looked into a fair few accusations of plagiarism in music. I was surprised at just how many "rip-offs" have become big hits. It seems that every band/musician does it.

He shows how similar some tracks are. Much of Led Zepellin's early stuff is almost a direct take from earlier blues artists and they (Zep) have been sued a number of times, sometimes successfully, sometimes not. One interesting interview he includes is Ice Tea explaining how rappers were never sued until the success of "Ice Ice Baby" because it just wasn't worth it.

If you are interested, his channel is called "David Bennett Piano".

[The Masked Poster]

Re Led Zep.

There's a Small Faces track, which I think is called "way down inside" or something. But it's basically "Whole Lotta Love". It wasn't a single and I don't even think it was an album track. But it definitely existed. 

[Padge]

1 hour ago, tonyXIII said:

There's a guy on YouTube who has looked into a fair few accusations of plagiarism in music. I was surprised at just how many "rip-offs" have become big hits. It seems that every band/musician does it.

He shows how similar some tracks are. Much of Led Zepellin's early stuff is almost a direct take from earlier blues artists and they (Zep) have been sued a number of times, sometimes successfully, sometimes not. One interesting interview he includes is Ice Tea explaining how rappers were never sued until the success of "Ice Ice Baby" because it just wasn't worth it.

If you are interested, his channel is called "David Bennett Piano".

Zeppelin did what many bands were doing at the time and reworking old blues tracks, as with Ice Tea nobody sued as it wasn't worth it, until Zeppelin became massive and then it became worth the chase.

The problem is blues and folk music are derivitive music where everyone borrows and builds on from what went before, be that lyrics or music. Many 60s and eraly 70s bands built on American blues and bluegrass music and nobody really cared until artists started seeing people using their original work being used to line the pockets of upcoming new bands and recording companies executives.

There has been a recent spate of  piano chasing lawyers taking speculative stabs at trying to claim a big artist had ripped off music from some relatively minor artist. 

Stairway to Heaven was involved in a court case that claimed it was a rip-off of the band Spirit's song Taurus. Zeppelin's defence managed to prove that the descending chord sequence in the opening was a standard that had been used for centuries by many musicians.

[Farmduck]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_songs_subject_to_plagiarism_disputes

[Padge]

6 hours ago, The Masked Poster said:

Re Led Zep.

There's a Small Faces track, which I think is called "way down inside" or something. But it's basically "Whole Lotta Love". It wasn't a single and I don't even think it was an album track. But it definitely existed. 

That was 'You Need Loving", which was directly nicked from the Dixon song, Steve Marriot felt that Plant had 'borrowed' his version of how he sang the lyrics. Dixon never suedThe Small Faces, not big enough, but Zeppelin was a different kettle of fish as they were massive in the states.

Whole Lotta Love musically is miles away from Dixon's original but the lyrics are almost a straight lift.

[The Masked Poster]

8 minutes ago, Padge said:

That was 'You Need Loving", which was directly nicked from the Dixon song, Steve Marriot felt that Plant had 'borrowed' his version of how he sang the lyrics. Dixon never suedThe Small Faces, not big enough, but Zeppelin was a different kettle of fish as they were massive in the states.

Whole Lotta Love musically is miles away from Dixon's original but the lyrics are almost a straight lift.

That will be the one, thanks muchly.

[Futtocks]

I believe the Swedish group Rednex were so incensed by the note-for-note rip-off of their #1 hit Cotton Eye Joe that they sued themselves over the follow-up single Pop in an Oak.

[Padge]

Zeppelin got in bother again after trying to be nice to Richie Valens' mother over "Boogie with Stu" on Physical Graffiti. It was a a recording of a jam session with the, at the time pianist for The Rolling Stones,  Ian Stewart. The ad-lib session was based around a Richie Valens number "Ooh My Head". It did not credit Valens but instead credited Mrs Valens, his mother, after the band had heard that she was financially struggling. Valens was killed in the plane crash in 1959 that also killed Buddy Holly.

Bob Keane credited as a writer of "Ooh my head" along with Valens sued Zeppelin ( they had already admitted in effect using the original by naming Valens mother as a co-writer), Keane won his case but Mrs Valens (who wasn't involved in the case) was awarded half of Keans winning settlement.

 

Edited May 1, 2023 by Padge

[ivans82]

On 01/05/2023 at 12:15, Farmduck said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_songs_subject_to_plagiarism_disputes

Very interesting list which contains the lauren Hill album which appears (somehow) in Rolling Stones Magazine top albums of all time , which has had 13 of the tracks challenged .

Edited May 3, 2023 by ivans82

[graveyard johnny]

apparently he has said if he is found guilty he will stop making music - so heres hoping! 

town called malice = cant hurry love etc etc

[Maximus Decimus]

On 01/05/2023 at 17:37, Futtocks said:

I believe the Swedish group Rednex were so incensed by the note-for-note rip-off of their #1 hit Cotton Eye Joe that they sued themselves over the follow-up single Pop in an Oak.

Funny the missus was watching the Ed Sheeran thing last night and he was showing a song he'd written to his wife, and I said he should sue himself.

I personally hate these things. As someone who has written songs, it's impossible to know who you've been influenced by. The process of coming up with a melody or a chord structure is one where you can never know if it's been used before.

It's like being sued for writing a wedding speech and it being too similar to somebody else's, when there are only so many ways of saying the same thing. Songs are similar, there are only a finite number of tunes.

[Derwent]

I’m surprised Sabbath never sued Blondie as the riff in Call Me is basically Children of the Grave.

[gingerjon]

On 28/04/2023 at 13:39, ivans82 said:

Listening to both songs , to me sound nothing alike .Theres a little snapshot on the BBC website where a man is playing them both on a piano , but has to change key to even make them match .There is an argument as to whether these chords are the "building blocks" of rock n roll  and if so who was the first to play them ...........this trial is a very far fetched argument when other songs  are much more alike e.g. St Elmos Fire by John Parr and Boys of Summer by Don Henley , which in essence are very much the same song .

Some good examples in this thread:

 

[The Masked Poster]

Bruno Brookes. 

He used to have a section on his Radio 1 show called 'purely by coincidence' where people would write in (yes, write) with suggestions of songs that they felt were familiar. I think it was on Friday teatime but possibly could have been on everyday. 

So it was a thing way before the internet. 

[Maximus Decimus]

6 hours ago, gingerjon said:

Some good examples in this thread:

 

The best line in this is the one saying there are only 12 notes so we should be amazed we've got this far!

[Bedford Roughyed]